Trinity Force and The Black Cleaver

Ætheist··3 votes·6,851 views

I notice that Darius and Garen are building Trinity Force lately (or at least I've been told Garen does), which made me wonder why this is. So I thought about it, moreso for Darius in particular:

  • Rage passive helps for sticking to enemies. Both Tri and BC have it, and in fact BC has a stronger version that triggers on any physical damage rather than just autos. However, Trinity has +5% Movement Speed on it too. Darius with boots basically gets Rage's MS passively from Trinity, and that's before Trinity's OWN Rage passive. Which is fairly easy to maintain for Darius because of how his skills work.

  • Cooldown reduction for more ability usage. Both Tri and BC have 20% CDR, but Tri also gives +250 Mana so Darius can use more abilities.

  • Damage, obviously. BC gives 40 AD to Tri's 25, but Tri backs that up by adding 200% Base AD to your next auto after using an ability. This pairs nicely with Darius' W being a fairly low-CD auto reset. BC provides up to 24% armor shred, but only after landing six physical hits, which is a moot point when Darius gains 25% unconditional armor penetration from his E at rank 3 (and 35% at max rank).

  • Some extra Health. BC gives 150 more HP than Tri does, which is an entire Ruby Crystal's worth of HP, so yay?

This just tells me something's not right here, considering Darius' rework was literally made with Black Cleaver in mind.

/-/-/

At first glance, I'd say that Trinity just needs its damage spread out a bit rather than getting huge chunks of it via frequent Spellblade triggers. Also dial back on its CDR a bit (20% is honestly excessive on an item with a large Spellblade effect, considering this is an item that used to get by while having no CDR at all back in the day).

Trinity Force

_Recurve Bow (1000) + Sheen (1050) + Phage (1250) + 333 = 3633 _

+25 Attack Damage +40% Attack Speed +10% Cooldown Reduction +250 Health +250 Mana +5% Movement Speed

Unique: Your basic attacks deal 5 (+15% Base AD) bonus Physical Damage on-hit.

Unique - Spellblade: After using an ability, your next basic attack within 10 seconds deals an additional (140% Base AD) bonus Physical Damage on-hit (2 second cooldown).

Unique - Rage: Basic attacks (on-hit) grant +20 Movement Speed for 2 seconds. Killing a unit grants +60 Movement Speed instead. These bonuses are halved for ranged champions.

Essentially the Spellblade trigger is 155% Base AD total when including the other passive, which means you'd need three more non-Spellblade autos to match the current version's damage. It's just a concept, though, you could fiddle with the numbers to whatever feels best. Strong sustained damage, but more spread out across a series of attacks to favor duelists, the people that Trinity is designed for.

The only potential problem here is Guinsoo's, maybe, but I figure you deserve to have good DPS if you're sinking that much gold into two items, one of which has a rather meh build-path.

/-/-/

As for Black Cleaver, maybe increase the movement speed on its Rage passive from 20/60 to 30/90 (note that it still gets halved on ranged champions). Having the same Rage numbers as Trinity while not having Trinity's % movement speed feels kinda bad when Cleaver's designed for champions who tend to have less sticking power as it is. I'm sure Urgot would appreciate a BC Rage buff too, for those people annoyed at Urgot's itemization holes.

I know, it'd probably make Gnar ever so slightly more obnoxious. Gnar's just a difficult design to work with in general, though, because he swings between two extremes.

16 Comments

Hammermancer6 votes

Maybe just buff cleaver so it isnt trash?

Hammermancer2 votes

Like make it apply a bleed of .5% max hp per stack per second physical

Ætheist1 votes

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O5cLtN6M,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-09-27T03:12:29.814+0000)

Maybe just buff cleaver so it isnt trash?

Cleaver's not even a bad item, though. It's just that it's competing too much with Trinity Force now that we have more anti-tank things.

You'd have to buff it rather significantly to get Darius to want it over Trinity, or nerf his free armor penetration significantly.

Hammermancer1 votes

Maybe it is the armor pen in his kit thats the issue and not cleaver or triforce

Buy cleaver is kinda sad times rn

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

Cleaver's not even a bad item, though. It's just that it's competing too much with Trinity Force now that we have more anti-tank things.

You'd have to buff it rather significantly to get Darius to want it over Trinity, or nerf his free armor penetration significantly.

cleaver has been sub par, since they nerfed the armor shred on the item.

Apocalypsic1 votes

{quoted}

Cleaver's not even a bad item, though. It's just that it's competing too much with Trinity Force now that we have more anti-tank things.

You'd have to buff it rather significantly to get Darius to want it over Trinity, or nerf his free armor penetration significantly.

That thing they just buffed?

DarukongSr1 votes

{quoted}

Cleaver's not even a bad item, though. It's just that it's competing too much with Trinity Force now that we have more anti-tank things.

You'd have to buff it rather significantly to get Darius to want it over Trinity, or nerf his free armor penetration significantly.

I'd say that the proper verbage is that cleaver is Relatively bad. Like you say, too many anti tank items. Cleaver could use a little buff like the above with a DOT added on or maybe small percent damage reduction from enemies per stack (say 2%) to add a little survivability. I should note however than any buff given to black cleaver should be completely unavailable to range adcs like Lucian and MF as those champs are already busted af and they tend to completely abuse and subsequently ruin these types of fighter/juggernaut items and it blows. After all, adcs don't need more damage OR more survivability.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O5cLtN6M,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-09-27T03:12:29.814+0000)

Maybe just buff cleaver so it isnt trash?

^

AlienPrimate2 votes

I think this is more due to the lack people actually using tank items. My games almost always have a tank but that is just because I play tanks. If I didn't play a tank, there would probably only be one in every 5 games. Triforce is naturally better against squishier targets than Black Cleaver is.

Ætheist1 votes

{quoted}

I think this is more due to the lack people actually using tank items. My games almost always have a tank but that is just because I play tanks. If I didn't play a tank, there would probably only be one in every 5 games. Triforce is naturally better against squishier targets than Black Cleaver is.

Between the free Lord Dominik's he gets on his E plus Conqueror, I doubt Darius would actually need Cleaver even against tanks.

Maybe in more organized play where he can help the ADC with it (and even then you have people like Kai'Sa who deal tons of mixed damage anyway), but that's like a fraction of a percent of all League games. For everyone else, there's still Triforce Darius dunking you with Spellblade-boosted W casts that are further enhanced by Conqueror.

Ragnaveil1 votes

Cleaver is only good for the health and cdr. Thats about it for it currently because we dont live in a tank meta anymore, nor will be anytime soon with Conqueror existing. It also doesn't help they made it more of a tanky item than a bruiser item (see the reworked stats for example). They honestly should go back to old BC stats or something.

FalconPawwwwnch2 votes

Its not even because of anything you said, its solely because of conqueror

Cleaver has negative synergy with conqueror and darius's E passive

Saezio2 votes

Make trinity great again, Give it the AP back and the critical. Remove the damn 20% cdr it's an overkill Also make sheen have AP again. Worst item rework ever

Zane Zephyr1 votes

Garen would build it because apart from the mana it synergizes with his kit pretty decently. The Q sheen proc does an absurd amount of damage when it's maxed and if you have some AD and doesn't mind the AS for farming.

Darius has been building TF because the attack speed helps him build his passive faster plus the sheen W proc, along with giving him stats he likes to have and plus if the team you're against is relatively squishy then you don't really need the armor shred too much.

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

I'd increase the item to deal 5 (+25% Base AD) bonus on-hit physical damage and then decrease Spellblade's damage to 125% of Base AD.

This is mostly to warrant purchasing Trinity Force over Blade of the Ruined King, because 5 + 15% of Base AD is pretty much nothing compared to the 8% current health damage of BotRK.

Decreasing Spellblade damage is just so it doesn't end up becoming broken.

The item is only going to deal 5% less Base AD damage on Spellblade procs to compensate for dealing 25% of Base AD every auto attack.

Saezio1 votes

considering this is an item that used to get by while having no CDR at all back in the day

What do you mean? This item used to be great , have both AD and AP as well as attack speed and critical. But rito decided to rework it because they decided it should no longer be an all-around item but rather a very specific item for very specific champions

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