Those Abysal changes seem a bit uh, harsh

PopcornBunni·Mar 7, 2018·76 votes·9,601 views

https://i.imgur.com/0Rf4hct.jpg

Live Radius: 700 units PBE Radius: 6 centiunits

Don't get me wrong, it shouldn't be larger than the entire roster's auto range, but the changes going on now make it impossible for any non-vanguard, non-diver to use it. Unless you have the ability to cc opponents for 17 millennia and stand near them, this tiny aura does nothing.

get hit especially hard, having the weakest engages of any tanks.

Maybe make it so we don't have to be touching dicks with the enemy Nasus to open him up to damage?

112 Comments

ModWulf HelhammerMar 7, 201873 votes

but the changes going on now make it impossible for any non-vanguard, non-diver to use it.

Yes. That’s the point.

MohawkBirdMar 7, 201825 votes

[deleted]

AbiwonKenabiMar 7, 20185 votes

Exactly. This will still work great on Champs like Cho'Gath or Amumu like it is supposed to, but Mages won't abuse it anymore (as much anyways). This is supposed to be a tank item, yet Ryze has been buying it since it was changed from Scepter (and even some before) and does a billion damage with it while never dying (not literally, but you know.)

ElendilsSorrowMar 8, 20181 votes

?????????????????????????????????????????? Ryze cannot even survive lane anymore in soloq. This is a nerf aimed at proplay. Everything about Ryze has been nerfed to the point that he is legitimately unusable in soloq. If you're actually getting bursted down by a Ryze that's of an equal skill as you you need to rethink the way you play lane. He only bought Mask in scenarios he had to play lane passively and then outscale his laner.

Madsin25Mar 8, 20182 votes

Dude nobody is complaining about laning with a ryze. We are complaining about once he builds that 1st item item 3001 you are officially outscaled and you can't do shit to him 1v1.

revliledpembrokeMar 7, 201812 votes

Ryze building it was always going to be a thing. It offers Mana and MR. And even with this nerf on it's range, that looks to be about the range I've seen Ryze do a lot of his damage (I remember Ryze is shortranged, but I don't remember how much. Been a bit since I've played him).

Never seen a Veigar with it, though. Tank Veigar, he who sits in the middle of his stun wall and DARES you to come get him.

EternvlMar 7, 201846 votes

You called?

TeCoolMageMar 8, 20184 votes

I'd say /r/beetlejuicing but this isn't reddit

Madsin25Mar 8, 20181 votes

Cassiopeia Ryze

Mages with the best DPS in the game should not have access to an item that makes them invincible killing machines.

revliledpembrokeMar 8, 20182 votes

cough cough

Also, I didn't say they SHOULD have it, I said Ryze building it was always going to happen as it gives him stats he wants.

BjørnetjenestenMar 8, 20187 votes

Invincible? They are the bruisers of the mage class, lowest range and constantly in the enemies face. Of course they need something tanky, be able to survive a teamfight without getting blown up instantly.

Pika FoxMar 7, 20185 votes

The problem i have is that even on champs like vanguards and tanks, ittd still be horrible because they have abilities that outrange said item, giving it a mediocre affect.

Chembaron YamadaMar 8, 20181 votes

It increases the damage by 15% now instead of 10%. So for example, if Amumu engages with Q, then it will deal less damage, but his W, E, and R will deal more damage.

More than compensated.

Pika FoxMar 8, 20181 votes

For someone like amumu, sure. But for other champs who want resists and abilities to do damage at range without the need to engage, not gunna be that great.

Even for cho gath, he doesnt always wanna stand ontop of someone. He wants to often just max range Q and W. Meaning only his E will get a buff from it (R is true damage)

jadelinkMar 8, 20182 votes

I really think a 300/5-600 for melee range differential would make sense. Lets it be at around the range of nauts AOE, and covers maos smash fully.

RiotRiotRepertoirMar 8, 201817 votes

Yeah, pretty much. It's got the damage amp increase on it to still reward those that are getting in there and mixing it up for their team.

FlemmanMar 8, 20184 votes

pretty heavy buff to melee ap carry imo (like fizz, kassadin, diana,...), who tend to not be in a healthy state for the game when they can be tanky and deal a lot of damage at the same time. I guess those champ will be be on watch list during the next patch

HäxelMar 8, 20183 votes

i could see it on kassa with his need of mana and hard early game but the others, idk. Also all of them have some rangeabilitys like fizz ults, kass q, diana q that if they don't come on range don't get the icnreased damage. On akali otherhand i could see it, even if she is an energy champion, tankakali is still a thing and she is the most time clsoe, even with her shroud.

DisulfiramMar 8, 20181 votes

It's a pretty useful item on Fiddlesticks ... I know, few play him live ergo nobody plays him on PBE, but it's just so good on him: it offers mana, CDr, tankyness, and damage amp, all stats that Fiddle loves. Will you keep an eye on Fiddle too? Please?

[cass-cry]

SangreDeNocheMar 9, 20182 votes

{quoted}

It's a pretty useful item on ... I know, few play him live ergo nobody plays him on PBE, but it's just so good on him: it offers mana, CDr, tankyness, and damage amp, all stats that Fiddle loves. Will you keep an eye on Fiddle too? Please?

[cass-cry]

Who?

DisulfiramMar 9, 20181 votes

[zombie-nunu-tears]

SkiasMar 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, pretty much. It's got the damage amp increase on it to still reward those that are getting in there and mixing it up for their team.

Would this even hit anyone if you did get in there? Even on Taric, If I bought this, my team would get very little benefit.

OleandervineMar 7, 201834 votes

Braum, Taric, Kench, and Nunu are not engage tanks. Taric, Braum, and Kench are Wardens, who focus on defending allies and providing support. They are beefy because they're intended to swoop into the fight and save allies while not dying. Their purpose is not to engage team fights because they don't typically have enough adequate disruption like real engage tanks such as Thresh, Leona, or Nautilus. They shouldn't be building Abyssal Mask to begin with, as there are other MR options they should be building instead like Locket of the Iron Solari, Banner of Command, or Zz'Rot Portal. Nunu is just weird, he's not really an engage tank or a warden, he's just Nunu.

Poppy actually is an engage tank, and will not have trouble with this. Poppy's engage lunges her into combat, so she will have no difficulty getting to where she needs to be to let the Mask do its thing.

meowwow7Mar 7, 20182 votes

that's the reason why i kinda dislike playing taric is because if we have a teamfight i'm usually stuck at engage duty even though the cc is more of a peel/follow up and i get flamed by everybody for not engaging

Painted CeltMar 7, 201819 votes

Hmm... I thought one of the purposes of item 3001 was as a supportive item to help supports provide utility to the APC so that supports can help more than just the ADC on the team... It seems like it should definitely be viable on supportive wardens in that case.

APCs probably shouldn't be building it, but maybe what they actually need is harder scaling multiplicative AP itemization so that the mere 10% bonus from item 3001 doesn't feel worth the item slot for a true APC. Maybe deserves some minor nerfs as well - perhaps its aura could fade-out with distance, increasing magic damage by 1% at the current maximum aura range and scaling to 10% at the new PBE range as an aura "epicenter". This nerf will mess up my AP support Shaco build that I play for fun, but I am trying to view this change with an unbiased perspective.

Edit: I posted another alternative idea on this new thread: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/WeAU7rqO-abyssal-mask-pbe-nerf-alternative [Recreated the thread to add a poll.]

WinterwingsMar 7, 20182 votes

Sounds like a good idea... Imagine, the Live range is where you'd get the minimum bonus of 1% and the PBE range is where the max value of (newly increased) 15% bonus would kick in...

Velzard of KozMar 7, 20182 votes

Hmm... I thought one of the purposes of was as a supportive item to help supports provide utility to the APC so that supports can help more than just the ADC on the team... It seems like it should definitely be viable on supportive wardens in that case.

Vanguards can be supportive, too. Thresh, Leona and Nautilus, whom he listed as examples of who use it, are all favourly used as supports, with Nautilus being slight exception as people like(d) to take him jungle more perhaps.

DeusVultMar 7, 20186 votes

Its not meant for supports, it costs 2900 gold. Support items cost ~2200-2600 gold at most. Abyssal was meant for tanks who wanted MR while also offering increased damage to their team. That was always the case, even back when it was abyssal staff, but it has always been used by DPS mages like Ryze and Cass when it had a larger AoE because it allowed them to have MR and safety in lane while also increasing their damage

which is why Riot reduced the AoE. They said they wanted tanks to use it more instead of being a first buy for battle mages

Painted CeltMar 7, 20182 votes

It's a decently expensive item, but supports have a little bit more gold nowadays and don't need to spend their whole income on sight wards so the days of severely gold-deprived supports are slowly but surely fading away.

According to champion.gg, some supports have their best winrate builds with items that are fairly pricy and aren't support-exclusive, like: item 3003 item 3165 item 3083 item 3194 item 3512 item 3075 item 3143 item 3065

And then you have "supports" ( Zyra Velkoz and other mages) building straight standard APC items with a item 3092 thrown in.

I think there is room in the current game for supports to sometimes pick up item 3001 and that it's a good thing, especially if Riot wants to encourage bot-lane APC with support combos in the near future. In any case, I think it's good if supportive classes, whether they are technically in the support role or are playing a top/jg tank, can itemize to help their APCs.

DeusVultMar 7, 20182 votes

Mage supports have expensive builds because they are APCs disguised as a support with a sightstone item (RIP) They need to get kills/assists to keep up in gold and remain relevant which is why they don't see as much play, because they aren't as consistent.

Most supports who forgo support items do so at a lower level of play, where throws, comebacks, and longer games are more common. More kills = more gold. At a higher level melee supports will go item 3097 item 3190 item 3109 and shielding supports will go item 3305 item 3504 item 3107

its all about gold relevance, so they go with the less costly support items with powerful actives to remain relevant.

Painted CeltMar 7, 20185 votes

By the way, I don't even see item 3001 listed as most popular or highest winrate build for very many champions, so I am kind of wondering if the current "abuse" cases are exaggerated. It's on Cassiopeia 's most popular build but not her highest winrate build. It's listed on neither for Ryze . It's not listed for AurelionSol either, who is another champion claimed to abuse it. According to the actual data available, it looks like a very rare niche item for non-tanks. I am honestly not convinced it needs any nerfs.

LordForrestMar 8, 20183 votes

Except Poppy isn't a Vanguard, shes a warden.

Her W stops dashes so they can't get to your backline.
Her E lets her tackle them away from her backline.
Her Ult can send divers a huge distance away from the backline.

Her entire kit is basically geared for protecting the backline, not engaging.

As a side note, why the hell would you build abyssal mask on her anyways?

Stars ShaperMar 7, 201819 votes

Another item cut away from AurelionSol ...

If you ever get behind as him now you lose, can't even itemize against that, forced into RoA whatever the case. Next patch they'll make Rylai only work with single target spells.

JPLangleyMar 7, 201832 votes

[deleted]

Stars ShaperMar 7, 201812 votes

Aurelion Sol needs to stay in a rather close range, that item was something he needed if the team was AP heavy.

OleandervineMar 7, 20184 votes

If you need the HP and the magic damage boost, may I recommend the newly updated item 3151 ? It pretty much does what Abyssal does, without the MR and without the range limitation, and it is much more suited for an aggressive carry.

Stars ShaperMar 7, 20186 votes

Like I wasn't already building it?

Chembaron YamadaMar 7, 20182 votes

His outer limit for his passive is 650, which is higher than the AA range of most marksmen.

Besides, it doesn't change the fact that this item is supposed to be taken by tanks, not battle mages.

I am kinda sad, too. Since I really wanted to try that tank Viktor I read about and I doubt he works well with that range. But I understand the reasoning, it is logical.

PurpleKingCrazyMar 7, 20181 votes

Aurelion Sol does NOT build that item (unless he's a tank variant in ARAM.)

Taliyah

Stars ShaperMar 8, 20183 votes

He does against AP/magic damage heavy teams.

WinterwingsMar 7, 20189 votes

Glad i wasn't the only one to think this way...

While yes, it's Live range is a bit excessive and needs to be cut down, what's on PBE is too damn harsh

EDIT: Here's to hoping Rito listens to us and instead finds a middle ground solution... Something that mid carry mages wont be able to abuse easily but will still have a decent range so you dont have to sit directly on top of people (Which is a suicide in the current state of the game) to get its effect...

HryzzoMar 7, 20188 votes

That item was only there, so tanks could help the apc to do more dmg.

ofc Nunu TahmKench Braum Taric have weak engages. They are tanks to support the backline.

DollaMenunaireMar 7, 20187 votes

So it's basically a malphite only item now

xelakerMar 7, 20187 votes

Malphite You WILL lose.

RocketRelmMar 8, 20184 votes

I kinda like the solution of "Range is increased by 250 units for Melee champions".

jadelinkMar 8, 20182 votes

This means it might be usable still for Cho or Galio, but that they couldn't use it for long range waveclear, which seems fair.

Sun Wu RyuumokuMar 7, 20183 votes

get hit especially hard, having the weakest engages of any tanks.

oh... so sad [sg-miss-fortune]

BonipherusMar 8, 20183 votes

area is so small i don't even think Singed wants it anymore

Who Fed RuMar 8, 20182 votes

at least no more fcking item 3001 Veigar

Acheron16Mar 9, 20182 votes

I think it could use an aditional 50 or 100 units, just so that when your tank dives the enemy team he can cover most of them, even if the reduction has to be nerfed a bit.

As it currently is, it seems to only affect a single person (probably the enemy tank) unless the enemy team is literally piled on each other.