LCK today, Ornn swapped to mid....

Fraggleroc·Mar 23, 2019·10 votes·4,726 views

because he cant fight Neeko at top... It's kinda sad.

Oppressive ranged champions at top. Driving tanks away from their position.

35 Comments

PhieldworkerMar 23, 20195 votes

Agree. I feel the only acceptable top lane range is teemo, vlad, Swain and Kayle. The rest I feel they need to find a way to take em down a bit. It sucks that the only reliable tactic is “don’t int and wait for assistance”

ShmeeveMar 23, 20191 votes

At least Swain and Vlad are fine to deal with from experience. Teemo and Kayle on the other hand... Screw. Them.

SithesisLordMar 23, 20194 votes

Kayle takes 11 levels to even begin being relevant.

If you can't do anything during that time, you deserve to get fucked.

Also, Vlad is fine but Kayle isn't?

Whatever pot you're smoking, i want some, because it HAS to be the best one in existence.

heroikcMar 23, 20195 votes

Ornn is pretty weak to most top laners, anyway, not just ranged ones.

IllabetheMar 23, 20193 votes

Sorry. what you said doesn't make a lick of sense...... since most Mids are oppressive ranged champions.

Furthermore; No. He just can't trade early in top vs other melee range champions. His best position should be jungle. Extremely safe, buy on the go, strong invader.

ShmeeveMar 23, 20193 votes

You have no idea what top ornn can do

IllabetheMar 23, 20192 votes

I Mastery 7'd Ornn 2 days into his release, have played 1.7 million mastery games on him. Sigh. What do I know.....

Let me ask you this: How do you deal with Darius Apprehend, bleeds, on fairly short cooldowns and low mana costs in top lane? How do you keep up with CS at that range?

How are you winning vs a Renekton?

Iota ThetaMar 23, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I Mastery 7'd Ornn 2 days into his release, have played 1.7 million mastery games on him. Sigh. What do I know.....

Let me ask you this: How do you deal with Darius Apprehend, bleeds, on fairly short cooldowns and low mana costs in top lane? How do you keep up with CS at that range?

How are you winning vs a Renekton?

2 days? I don’t buy that. You would have had to spam countless games on him in that time.

Just cause you can’t doesn’t mean others can. Bellows Breath negates Apprehend. Bleeds, same way as everyone else. Plus it’s physical damage, so get armor, back off before 5 stacks. Apprehend has a massive CD early game and it’s not even Darius’s first max. Put that on cooldown and he has to walk up to you, while you can poke with Q and hit hard with E.

Renekton is tougher. Mostly prediction game, going for Bellows Breath when he E-Ws to get the Brittle proc and ignore the stun. Rush armor.

CS is easy, especially if you freeze it back by your tower. E max helps clear caster minions easily. Just gotta position Q just right. Add Aftershock and those aforementioned trades are even better.

Ornn jungle has some of the lowest income and XP. Ornn’s desire is to hit 13 fast to get his masterworks and start advancing his allies. That is not as easy to do in the jungle these days with the XP nerfs. There’s also the scuttle fights that tanks just aren’t as good at unless they’re Sejuani or Nunu and Willump.

IllabetheMar 23, 20192 votes

It took me 17 games to Mastery 7 him on my primary. I literally posted 17 games of 71% or greater kill participation, 25-40 kills I contributed to a game, and lost 0 games on that streak.

I did not play him Top though. I played him Jungle/Support.

item 1413 item 3078 item 3071 item 3001 item 3009 item 3110 item 3096 item 3382 item 3512 item 3083 item 3075

Bleed is massively different vs a champ who has immobile states, and no longer has a Barrier. Ornn only has one out. If you use E for anything other than an escape (which Darius can Flash or Ghost to catch up) you will die. In other words, you kind of just trashed your own argument by saying "His E does massive damage" If you use it for damage, you cannot escape these champs, nor can you outright trade them.

Ornn clears entire jungle 33 seconds faster than any other jungler in the game, and does it with 100% HP. I literally own 3 of the enemy camps in addition to my own.

I think you need to stop thinking of him as a tank. item 3078 item 3071 are two of his strongest items.

Done25Mar 23, 20191 votes

{quoted} I think you need to stop thinking of him as a tank. are two of his strongest items.

In all honesty Ornn isn't a Tank anymore, if he ever was one. He's really more of a Fighter given his kit. (Does mixed damage and his CC is weak or unreliable. Think WW/Trundle/Mundo.)

Iota ThetaMar 23, 20192 votes

{quoted}

It took me 17 games to Mastery 7 him on my primary. I literally posted 17 games of 71% or greater kill participation, 25-40 kills I contributed to a game, and lost 0 games on that streak.

I did not play him Top though. I played him Jungle/Support.

There is no way it took you only 17 games to get Mastery 7. The general consesus from doing some searching is minimum 20 games to Mastery 5, at which point then you have to get 2 S-and then 3 S ranked games.

I call bull. Through and through.

Bleed is massively different vs a champ who has immobile states, and no longer has a Barrier. Ornn only has one out. If you use E for anything other than an escape (which Darius can Flash or Ghost to catch up) you will die. In other words, you kind of just trashed your own argument by saying "His E does massive damage" If you use it for damage, you cannot escape these champs, nor can you outright trade them.

Ironic how you claim this when Ornn has Darius listed under his “Ornn lane Counters this champ,” 51% winrate there.

Well yeah Bleed is different when one doesn’t have a shield. It still takes time to rack up.

E has more uses than just an escape. If you are holdong onto E just to escape a trade, then you are wasting Ornn’s skills. A strong trade is all that’s needed. W the apprehend and get the Brittle, Q-E for the slow, the charge, and the knockup procs Brittle and Aftershock, giving you >70 bonus armor in that trade.

Don’t forget W is 12% max health damage at rank one, and a Brittle proc deals about the same or a bit more depending on level. At that point you’ve chunked 1/4 of his health. Aftershock reduces the damage you take back. Add in E, which is twice the damage of Q and procs Brittle and Aftershock, while also scaling with armor and MR, which Ornn wants to build, and you have a good trade. Often times the knockup duration is enough to start backing off, and if they flash or ghost for you, that’s a bonus because 1) you also have Flash if necessary, 2) you made him burn a flash just for a trade and just made an immobile champ that much more vulnerable to push up.

But what do I know? I’ve just been an Ornn fan since released, talked with multiple Ornn mains, and have seen the upper elos, those who are truly there, and the pros playing him as a tank and in the same way..

Ornn clears entire jungle 33 seconds faster than any other jungler in the game, and does it with 100% HP. I literally own 3 of the enemy camps in addition to my own.

Oh wow, so you know more about a champ than his top players and the pros? Bull crap he clears 33 seconds faster. I guess those everyone playing those top junglers in the game are dead wrong and should all swap to Ornn tank? Or that Lolalytics is wrong to not include his jungle scores?

Don’t forget that jungle has had it’s xp nerfed, and for a champ that needs his levels and can’t contest scuttle as well, that hurts a lot.

I think you need to stop thinking of him as a tank. are two of his strongest items.

Ornn. Is. A. Vanguard. Tank. He was teased as a tank. He was announced as a tank. He was released as a tank. He receives balance changes as a tank. You are not just telling me not to think of him as a tank, you’re telling everyone who plays him the same. Including the top Ornn players who play him tank, both top and support, the pro players who pick him as such in the LCS.

Ornn. Is. A. Tank. There’s a reason his top items on lolalytics are all tank items. Not a single non tank item beyond Redemption crosses his items in lolalytics in Diamond+. There’s a reason he gets an armor and MR boost on his passive and his E, now one of his best abilities, scales with both resists.

The Forge God has one ability that even thinks about scaling with those, and it has pitiful bases, and the bonus AD doesn’t get him near enough for it to be worthwhile. The main useful thing for his is Sheen procs, but he gets a better one with IBG.

You keep pulling out these numbers, and you never offer proof, just that you alone have done it. So I’m gonna pull this. Everything you say without offering proof? Either made up or anecdotal. Why? Because there is 0 data anywhere to validate your claims.

Edit: all numbers from: https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Ornn/

IllabetheMar 24, 20191 votes

Not Bullshit. When you perform consecutive carries, you rank mastery faster.
Actually, that depends on the analysis of the lane vs game statistics of the site you are using. Darius wins the lane 58%. Ornn recovers a bit post lane into the team fight arena to put up a 49% win rate.

b) You're treating theory crafting as if both people can not reciprocally react. Ornn's skills all have tells/cast delays. Darius doesn't on 2. Darius can walk up to Ornn if he doesn't see a tell. He can face tank the brittle, because the damage is not enough to come even close to killing him. If Ornn E's into Darius, he literally has no escape.Darius will ignite him, and ride his butt, especially once he has item 3044 . Every single trade in this lane is in Darius' favor.

c) Wasting Ornn skills is so laughable. Everything you say literally is telling everyone you have no clue about the champ. HE HAS LONG COOLDOWNS AND HIGH MANA COSTS. If he wastes something he's DEAD. If you all in a Darius, YOU WILL DIE. PERIOD. The ONLY chance Ornn has of winning this lane is patience, farming under turret, and occasionally hitting Darius with Q while not getting in Rend range to heal Darius. Eventually you can get Darius so low a R setup can kill him. But in the process, your turret killed 1/3 your CS.

Pros and Metalord are often WRONG. It takes someone breaking out and building a specific build to get people to even try it. Furthermore, most people are so addicted to thinking he's a tank they don't actually explore runes. They just default to one set of runes, and the result is they don't get good synergies with alternative itemization.

His jungle clear IS 33 seconds faster than any other jungler. You really have no clue about jungle XP either. The first "nerf" was actually a restructure. KRUGS. I've said it about 30 times.. They reduced the Krug penalty, AND massively increased its XP.

Furthermore, Ornn DOESN'T HAVE TO RECALL. He never has to LEAVE the jungle. Once you learn a good path, he can literally shave full minutes of walking off of the grind to clear jungle, and by clear 1 he can easily have item 3751 item 1041 item 1039 item 1001 purchased. Hit kit also kills scuttle in 2.3 seconds, has a dash to close distances, and has no camp that he struggles with.

Also, post 7, the XP has not been nerfed.

On Ornn, I get a 5:13 Level 6.

Yes and No. He was teased as a Vanguard. He was not teased as explicitly a Vanguard TANK. He was never announced as a Tank. He was announced as a Vanguard. He has never received a single rework/balance change which favored tank. Any change to E has been a tank nerf, and every change to Q has been a buff to AD. His % damage has never once been changed as to favor tanking. The removal of the shield literally destroyed a huge argument in this favor, since it scaled to HP.

The Reason lolalytics tracks tank items is because a) It's what every meta sheep runs. They never experiment with other runes/items. b) The Passive rework strengthened to argument to incorporate more tank items post level 13. item 3387 's addition gave Ornn a viable tank item that actually scaled into late game (unlike item 3373 ) . However, item 3384 item 3380 scales MUCH greater, and the addition of Phage into his build makes his 3 second Brittle MUCH more reliable. Tanks usually miss brittle procs.

c) Q scales with TOTAL AD, not Bonus AD, and it's 100% AD scaling. I generally have 418 AD + I don't know about you. d) Ornn only has 2 aspects which scale with tank: E and part of his passive.

It's also worth noting: The amazing "Tank meta build" you are defending pushes a whopping 43-47% win rate. I can reliably carry any team who is not inting.....

I also notice you don't mention PLAYING Ornn. You're a whopping Iron I with 4 games ranked as Ornn. Lmfao.

NyarlathοtepMar 24, 20191 votes

Pros and Metalord are often WRONG

Maybe. However how can you prove that they are indeed wrong? Especially when it comes down to pros. They work to win. Saying that they are making mistakes sounds extremely naive.

He was not teased as explicitly a Vanguard TANK.

And how exactly can he seem anything else but a tank? His real only ad scaling is his q, his w doesnt scale with ap or ad, his e scales with resistances and his r scales with ap. Going ap is impossible since only his r scales (and poorly at that). Going ad (as a fighter) while extremely possible currently, he is really clunky and you should know it. His q does scale with Total ad making extremely strong late game if you have ad. However because of how his aa animation is during the brittle proc, it does increase the time it takes for it to finish (thus taking overall more time to apply your dmg). He also has enough hard cc to fit almost exclusively to the tank role.

He was announced as a Vanguard

Vanguard=tank that excels at engaging.

He has never received a single rework/balance change which favored tank

Tbh every change can favour a tank. Even a simple dmg buff.

Any change to E has been a tank nerf

No its not. At 8.4 e got a huge increase in base dmg and 10% more ratio (armour and mr). Said numbers currently are further more increased (albeit a little) by ornn's passive.

and every change to Q has been a buff to AD

???? How exactly? Because as i see his history, i dont see anything that will benefit him as a fighter. Hell the only changes his q has faced are his most recent (which was no doubt a nerf), some mana costs and some Qol.

His % damage has never once been changed as to favor tanking

Assuming you mean %max hp dmg, then not really. The point of a tank to have %max hp dmg is to keep their damage relatively relative during the late game so they remain a small threat. So he can build tank and still be able to threaten the enemy if he is left uncheched.

The removal of the shield literally destroyed a huge argument in this favor, since it scaled to HP

And you are right. Although i suppose riot thought that the 10% more resistances along with the capability to have to masterwork would be able to take the position of the shield. And its true. Hell maybe in late (or full build to be precise) its better. If the game lasts this long.

gave Ornn a viable tank item that actually scaled into late game (unlike ) . However, scales MUCH greater

Black cleaver on ORNN? WTF? So pray tell how exactly you stack it fast? Usually the ones that buy black cleaver (and thus utilize it) are able to stack it fast and reliable. So where does he fit?

I generally have 418 AD + I don't know about you.

With that much ad i surely wonder how exactly you are even able to remain alive in a teamfight. Or you are going full glass cannon and you forsake defenses. I mean adc (and assassins) usually reach that much ad.

Ornn only has 2 aspects which scale with tank: E and part of his passive

Well if you put it that way,

Nautilus has only 1 aspect that scales with tank : his w. Sion has only 2 aspects that scale with tank: his w and hp stacking. Maokai has only 1 aspect that scales with tank: his passive. Yet they are unmistakably tanks and are designed to be tanks.

It's also worth noting: The amazing "Tank meta build" you are defending pushes a whopping 43-47% win rate.

Maybe because ornn is weak with his primary (and intended) build?

I also notice you don't mention PLAYING Ornn.

And i quote from Iota, " I’ve just been an Ornn fan since released, talked with multiple Ornn mains, and have seen the upper elos, those who are truly there, and the pros playing him as a tank and in the same way".

You're a whopping Iron I with 4 games ranked as Ornn

To be fair you dont have to play 100 ranked games to have a solid opinion on a champ.

Iota ThetaMar 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Not Bullshit. When you perform consecutive carries, you rank mastery faster.

And yet, no proof.

Actually, that depends on the analysis of the lane vs game statistics of the site you are using. Darius wins the lane 58%. Ornn recovers a bit post lane into the team fight arena to put up a 49% win rate.

Perhaps, but that stat talks specifically about lane counters.

b) You're treating theory crafting as if both people can not reciprocally react. Ornn's skills all have tells/cast delays. Darius doesn't on 2. Darius can walk up to Ornn if he doesn't see a tell. He can face tank the brittle, because the damage is not enough to come even close to killing him. If Ornn E's into Darius, he literally has no escape.Darius will ignite him, and ride his butt, especially once he has . Every single trade in this lane is in Darius' favor.

Both people can reciprocate, you’re right. Except Ornn W has no tells. A good reflex on W can negate Darius’s E. He can face tank the Brittle? Up to 24-25% max hp damage, and Darius comes out of the trade on top? Especially when early game he has some CDs as bad as Ornn’s, for example, Apprehend that has a 24 second CD rank 1? Q and W are lower, but Q is maxed first, and can be played around as well. E’s knockup, especially when Brittle proc’d, is easily enough to walk away from Darius.

c) Wasting Ornn skills is so laughable. Everything you say literally is telling everyone you have no clue about the champ. HE HAS LONG COOLDOWNS AND HIGH MANA COSTS. If he wastes something he's DEAD. If you all in a Darius, YOU WILL DIE. PERIOD. The ONLY chance Ornn has of winning this lane is patience, farming under turret, and occasionally hitting Darius with Q while not getting in Rend range to heal Darius. Eventually you can get Darius so low a R setup can kill him. But in the process, your turret killed 1/3 your CS.

Except, clearly the impression, at least in this thread, is the exact opposite. Higher mana costs, yes, can be worked around, such as not spamming abilities to waveclear, aka, resource management. Funny though, because I see both myself and higher elos using skills in trades, and not just Q poking until you can kill, or the Pantheon method.

Pros and Metalord are often WRONG. It takes someone breaking out and building a specific build to get people to even try it. Furthermore, most people are so addicted to thinking he's a tank they don't actually explore runes. They just default to one set of runes, and the result is they don't get good synergies with alternative itemization.

Wait, so the top players, both pros and the top Ornn players....are wrong? And you’re right? Now that is laughable. Quite the ego. These are players that dedicated hours, days to studying these champs and what makes them effective in high elo and proplay. There’s a reason certain things, despite being considered OP, don’t show up there, and that’s because they don’t always work up there when people actually know how to play.

His jungle clear IS 33 seconds faster than any other jungler. You really have no clue about jungle XP either. The first "nerf" was actually a restructure. KRUGS. I've said it about 30 times.. They reduced the Krug penalty, AND massively increased its XP.

Furthermore, Ornn DOESN'T HAVE TO RECALL. He never has to LEAVE the jungle. Once you learn a good path, he can literally shave full minutes of walking off of the grind to clear jungle, and by clear 1 he can easily have purchased. Hit kit also kills scuttle in 2.3 seconds, has a dash to close distances, and has no camp that he struggles with.

Also, post 7, the XP has not been nerfed.

On Ornn, I get a 5:13 Level 6.

Again, proof? Even when every other source has talked about the jungle xp nerfs? Ironic, cause looking at Patch 9.2, every camps xp scales less. Level 1? No difference, beyond that it’s lower through 7. The non level 1 xp levels have been nerfed.

Clearing scuttle in 2.3 seconds? Please, do show. Provide proof for all the claims you’re making.

Yes and No. He was teased as a Vanguard. He was not teased as explicitly a Vanguard TANK. He was never announced as a Tank. He was announced as a Vanguard. He has never received a single rework/balance change which favored tank. Any change to E has been a tank nerf, and every change to Q has been a buff to AD. His % damage has never once been changed as to favor tanking. The removal of the shield literally destroyed a huge argument in this favor, since it scaled to HP.

And this shows how little you know of him and his release. To announce as a Vanguard is to announce as a tank. Vanguard = tank. All Vanguards are tanks, not all tanks are Vanguards. Where on the Rift does being a Vanguard not equate to being a tank?

Except, of course, his armor and health buffs, his E’s scaling buffs, his passive, his level of CC. Everything is tank. A buff to Q does not mean a buff to AD. Maybe if it was to the ratio, I might give that. But buff the slow, the pillar delay, the base? Not AD build buffs. Not to mention..E has been buffed a few times, not just nerfed.

The removal of shield, as much as I hated it, did not mean he’s no longer a tank, especially since they still gave him some extra tank steroid, granted a passive one, in his passive. %max health damage has been a staple of tanks lately, allowing them to deal damage without going overboard by building damage items (hello AP Malphite), but still allowing trades with other tanks and fighters.

The Reason lolalytics tracks tank items is because a) It's what every meta sheep runs. They never experiment with other runes/items.

So, anyone that disagrees with you is meta sheep, cool. By the way, building the meta == being a sheep, especially when done with understanding of what you’re doing.

b) The Passive rework strengthened to argument to incorporate more tank items post level 13. 's addition gave Ornn a viable tank item that actually scaled into late game (unlike ) .

well, Sunfire/Forgefire was more for waveclear and defense. And as of late, it is more viable since the cost decrease. IBG is good, but the lack of health can hurt.

However, item 3384 item 3380 scales MUCH greater, and the addition of Phage into his build makes his 3 second Brittle MUCH more reliable. Tanks usually miss brittle procs.

That is your opinion. It only really helps his Q and autos, but not as good on survival. I almost never miss a Brittle proc on Tank Ornn in a trade or fight, unless I’m dashed away from or peeled.

c) Q scales with TOTAL AD, not Bonus AD, and it's 100% AD scaling. I generally have 418 AD + I don't know about you.

I never said it was a bonus AD ratio. I said Trinity or Cleaver don’t give him that much bonus AD. I am well aware it’s total. Doesn’t mean it’s good.

d) Ornn only has 2 aspects which scale with tank: E and part of his passive.

Tank goes beyond having scaling by tank stats. If that’s the cause, Maokai isn’t a tank because only his heal is based on his health, or Naut with his shield, or Sion, or Nunu & Willump.

It's also worth noting: The amazing "Tank meta build" you are defending pushes a whopping 43-47% win rate. I can reliably carry any team who is not inting.....

Because the tank build is more focused on teamplay. Yet when executed well, it’s strong, especially in survival.

Ah yes, the “I only lose when I team ints.”

I also notice you don't mention PLAYING Ornn. You're a whopping Iron I with 4 games ranked as Ornn. Lmfao.

Because it’s pretty obvious that I play Ornn?

This point matters little here. Want to know why? I have real life priorities. An 8 hour job, a wife, a son with a second on the way. I get two hours a night to play, as well as other priorities like helping out in the SWtOR Roleplay guild that I am in. I maybe play 1-3 ranked matches a week. More on Friday nights if I’m lucky. Or that ranked really is not a priority when I play. But sure, rank and match count shame me. Ignore the icon I currently have, or that I have a Mastery 6 on Ornn, meaning that I have played him quite a bit. Sure, go right on ahead. That tells me this is done.

IllabetheMar 24, 20191 votes

Lmfao. Whining about a family and an 8 hour job.

I have a family too. My wife works. I work. I work TWELVE hour shifts, on my feet.

I also have a son with Autism. He's 4 years old.

And it matters even more now; You're claiming to be an authority on a subject while you can barely play and haven't reached even Mastery 7 on ONE ACCOUNT. Only a weak man would hide behind his family.

SanKakUMar 24, 20191 votes

Someone has to be above average to get those S+ more consistently. Why do you have a problem with who it is that gets them?

Iota ThetaMar 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Someone has to be above average to get those S+ more consistently. Why do you have a problem with who it is that gets them?

i don't have an issue with who gets them. but to get them within 2 days of a champs release after hitting the respective tiers (need rank 5 to get mastery 6 tokens and 6 to get mastery 7 tokens), with the number of games to get to 5, I highly doubt this instance. While usually the first person will likely get higher grades early on, odds are it'll quickly diminish by the time they hit mastery 5, making those S's tougher to get.

PsyrixMar 24, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O3i29eKG,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-23T21:27:57.625+0000)

2 days? I don’t buy that. You would have had to spam countless games on him in that time.

Just cause you can’t doesn’t mean others can. Bellows Breath negates Apprehend. Bleeds, same way as everyone else. Plus it’s physical damage, so get armor, back off before 5 stacks. Apprehend has a massive CD early game and it’s not even Darius’s first max. Put that on cooldown and he has to walk up to you, while you can poke with Q and hit hard with E.

Renekton is tougher. Mostly prediction game, going for Bellows Breath when he E-Ws to get the Brittle proc and ignore the stun. Rush armor.

CS is easy, especially if you freeze it back by your tower. E max helps clear caster minions easily. Just gotta position Q just right. Add Aftershock and those aforementioned trades are even better.

Ornn jungle has some of the lowest income and XP. Ornn’s desire is to hit 13 fast to get his masterworks and start advancing his allies. That is not as easy to do in the jungle these days with the XP nerfs. There’s also the scuttle fights that tanks just aren’t as good at unless they’re Sejuani or Nunu and Willump.

Mastery 7 is EASY when the champ is first released and ur able to secure them (best chance is if u have a full team and go blind pick) and especially if ur winning most of the matches. Several people get lvl 7 in one day. A friend and I will usually compete to see who can get lvl 7 on new champs we both like (Zoe, Xayah, Rakan, Neeko, Bard etc) and generakly get it within 3 days. And we usually have time constraints. Think about it this way. It is quite possible to get lvl 5 on a champion within 1 day. Lvl 7 just requires u get an S 5 times in a row after that (technically 3... since u only need an S- for lvl 6, albeit two of them.)

Ahri BakaMar 24, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Iota Theta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=O3i29eKG,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-23T21:27:57.625+0000)

2 days? I don’t buy that. You would have had to spam countless games on him in that time.

Just cause you can’t doesn’t mean others can. Bellows Breath negates Apprehend. Bleeds, same way as everyone else. Plus it’s physical damage, so get armor, back off before 5 stacks. Apprehend has a massive CD early game and it’s not even Darius’s first max. Put that on cooldown and he has to walk up to you, while you can poke with Q and hit hard with E.

Renekton is tougher. Mostly prediction game, going for Bellows Breath when he E-Ws to get the Brittle proc and ignore the stun. Rush armor.

CS is easy, especially if you freeze it back by your tower. E max helps clear caster minions easily. Just gotta position Q just right. Add Aftershock and those aforementioned trades are even better.

Ornn jungle has some of the lowest income and XP. Ornn’s desire is to hit 13 fast to get his masterworks and start advancing his allies. That is not as easy to do in the jungle these days with the XP nerfs. There’s also the scuttle fights that tanks just aren’t as good at unless they’re Sejuani or Nunu and Willump.

It's easy to get m7 on a champion jn 2 days tho I did that for Kayn and Reworked Eve

ShmeeveMar 23, 20191 votes

Simple, just cheese darius as ornn, his w does max health damage.

IllabetheMar 23, 20191 votes

Lmfao you just proved how bad you are.

W doesn't do good max HP damage early game.
It locks you in place, and Darius trades you while you use it.
It starts with an insanely long cooldown.
It reduces his ability to prevent an absolute takedown, as Ornn will just be apprehended the second he W's.

Nothing in Ornn's current kit deals woth Darius' Bleed. No Shield, and Ornn has no on board heals. Darius will literally win this lane almost every single game, unless Ornn gives up 60% of his CS and hides under turret.

http://matchup.gg/matchup/Darius/Ornn/TOP

Iota ThetaMar 23, 20191 votes

It starts with an insanely long cooldown

Today I learned 12 seconds is “insanely long”.

IllabetheMar 23, 20191 votes

It's literally one of the longest cooldown "Wave Clear" skills in the game at that point. What makes it manageable late game is ITEMS, not its base cooldown. 12 seconds in lane is an eternity.

Iota ThetaMar 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

It's literally one of the longest cooldown "Wave Clear" skills in the game at that point. What makes it manageable late game is ITEMS, not its base cooldown. 12 seconds in lane is an eternity.

Well it’s not only a waveclear skill. It helps with clear, it applies his debuff, and deals %max health damage. Flat Base damage works much better for clears, honestly. W-E or Q-E with E max can really clear a wave well.

ShmeeveMar 24, 20191 votes

I'm not bad.

SirsirMar 23, 20192 votes

Your account lists your top champ as Zyra with 267k mastery points. One Ornn game in your history with a jungle loss. Irelia spanked y'all...

30% winrate with him in the jungle

[sg-kiko]

BeersteinMar 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Your account lists your top champ as Zyra with 267k mastery points. One Ornn game in your history with a jungle loss. Irelia spanked y'all...

30% winrate with him in the jungle

[sg-kiko]

Welp.

IllabetheMar 23, 20191 votes

This isn't my primary account
Ornn's performance is Elo-influenced.
Irelia didn't spank me. She spanked my Malphite Mid, Amumu top, and if you notice the name attached to the irelia, it's a booster account.
If you bothered to look through the losses, literally all of them have massive int feeders, and I had good scores. https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-history/NA1/243999882?champion=516&map=1

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2987391657/243999882?tab=overview Hyper fed Kha due to int feeding full push Lux, full squish team. https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2985207435/243999882?tab=overview Int feeding Nautilus, Twitch, and Kayle (just look at the kill map; game collapsed on every single lane and never pushed back at all entire game) https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2985041372/243999882?tab=overview Int feeding Darius, Velkoz, https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2984316997/243999882?tab=overview Int feeding Zed

Ornn is an extremely fast jungle clear. But he is pushed around no matter where he is because of his low mobility, and his inability to really survive well without his shield prior to 13. If his team doesn't build upgradeable items at ALL, it's also difficult for him to use 14+.

He will win almost every jungle duel. Doesn't mean he's not prone to being destroyed in between skills.

SEKAIMar 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Sorry. what you said doesn't make a lick of sense...... since most Mids are oppressive ranged champions.

Furthermore; No. He just can't trade early in top vs other melee range champions. His best position should be jungle. Extremely safe, buy on the go, strong invader.

Ornn not only out-trades, but outright owns like 85% of all champs who have ever gone top with little to no contest, and that's including ranged tops.

You can see this in effect simply go heading towards op.gg and look at the "Counter" tab for Ornn and scroll though all his laning opponent and compare their "Lane Kill Rate" to give yourself a picture of just how strong Ornn is during laning phase. Spoiler: He even destroys Renekton, Riven, Vayne, Jayve, Urgot, Yorick, Vlad (at least in terms of laning phase for them), and only a select few such as Darius and Irelia can even think of properly matching him in lane. He's certainly not weak at all at top.

Not sure why you'd think "He just can't trade early in top vs other melee range champions" because frankly, he's a monster at top lane, and that thing you claim he can't do is precisely his specialty.

I mean, sure I am not Ornn main, but my experiences with him is that yes indeed, his laning power is extremely strong especially against other melee characters, if not oppressively so. I really don't believe that "He just can't trade early in top vs other melee range champions" is true.

IllabetheMar 24, 20191 votes

Op.GG has some of the worst stats for tracking champion performance. It doesn't even explain why "Lane Kill Rate" is described in terms of a %, rather than a count.
It also claims he counters and beats Yasuo, which is just absurd. Yasuo literally hard counters Ornn's kit, and it's claiming he wins that.
In the case of their Ornn vs Yasuo, they even outright contradict their own stats, by showing gold/xp per minute gains. Yasuo dominates Ornn the entire game on Gold and XP income.
Their "Lane Kill Rate" is misinforming; It doesn't take into account anything except "In lane, this champions has this ratio of Kills vs Deaths to the other champion. Nearly 70% of Ornn's play in top lane is under his own turret, and kills are gained under his own turret. It does nothing at all to illustrate how he actually trades without the assistance of a turret. All those stats really say is: Ornn is good at killing turret divers.

SEKAIMar 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Op.GG has some of the worst stats for tracking champion performance. It doesn't even explain why "Lane Kill Rate" is described in terms of a %, rather than a count.

It also claims he counters and beats Yasuo, which is just absurd. Yasuo literally hard counters Ornn's kit, and it's claiming he wins that.

In the case of their Ornn vs Yasuo, they even outright contradict their own stats, by showing gold/xp per minute gains. Yasuo dominates Ornn the entire game on Gold and XP income.

Their "Lane Kill Rate" is misinforming; It doesn't take into account anything except "In lane, this champions has this ratio of Kills vs Deaths to the other champion. Nearly 70% of Ornn's play in top lane is under his own turret, and kills are gained under his own turret. It does nothing at all to illustrate how he actually trades without the assistance of a turret. All those stats really say is: Ornn is good at killing turret divers.

Yasuo farms better than Ornn, but he can not beat Ornn in trades.

The reason he can't is because Ornn counters Yasuo by the fact none of his basic kit is actually (at least not technically) blocked by Yasuo's wall, even Ornn's Q. Since Ornn's Q is coded as 2 spells happening one after another and the second component of pillar coming out is not a projectile, Ornn's Q when blocked, will create the pillar RIGHT IN FRONT of the wall. This not only mean that Yasuo loses 1 spell to Ornn for the most part, but also that it arguably makes trading easier for Ornn if Yasuo decides to W, given now Yasuo is zoned off his own wall by Ornn or else he risks of Ornn's E and the rest of his combo.

It is also to be remind that Ornn has gotten his unstoppable in his W back. This mean that once Ornn starts breathing fire, there is nothing that can stop him; not with all the displacements in the world (unless they do enough damage to kill him, that is, which is hard since he's a tank). And a good Ornn would obviously use it to dunk on Yasuo whenever he attempts to do Q3 and/or chain into ultis. Further bullying Yasuo by denying him of not 1 but 2 spells in his kit.

That easily explains how Ornn has significantly higher kill rate than Yasuo in lane.

IllabetheMar 24, 20191 votes

Literally every part of Ornn's kit except E can be blocked by Yasuo. Yasuo can even Q Ornn mid-dash on E and stop it. There's also a glitch to where if you actually manage to hit Yasuo with your ult while he is dashing with his E, Yasuo will actually be able to keep skilling even though he has AIRBORNE status.

It doesn't matter at all that Q will create a pillar in front of the wind wall. Wind wall =/= where Yasuo is, and it is the slow and damage that matter more than the pillar. Without it, W/E won't win the exchange.

And you can't wait Yasuo out, because he will just Ult you, shred your armor, and that's the end of you.

SirsirMar 23, 20191 votes

Potential fix for the ranged top lane drama: Dorans Shield regains the effect where it reduces damage from basic attacks, on melee only.

NetorareMar 24, 20191 votes

Just remove all those ranged fuckers from top.

Soraka ActuallyMar 25, 20191 votes

For those of us that like neeko on other lanes that would be a problem, on-hit is the most fun way to play her and the attack speed nerf killed the champion before they revised it. Tough thing to change for one lane without killing her for all others.