I know it's popular to hate on CertainlyT around here, but...

Slamurai Jack··5 votes·523 views

I'd like to put it into perspective a bit. Yes, CertainlyT has a number of very questionable creations Yasuo Thresh Kalista Mordekaiser, and that definitely calls his champion designing prowess into question.

But do you know who CertainlyT didn't design? AkaliEvelynn Annie Blitzcrank Azir Darius (rework) Ekko Elise Fiora Fizz Gnar Heimerdinger Irelia Kassadin Katarina Kayle Leblanc LeeSin Lulu MasterYi Mordekaiser (original) Morgana Nidalee Nunu Olaf Poppy RekSai Rengar Rengar Rengar Riven Ryze Shaco Shen Singed Soraka Yorick Teemo Tryndamere Vayne Vi Vladimir. Is it really fair to bash so much (and often exclusively) on CertainlyT when you look at what the rest of Riot has been up to?

20 Comments

ValyrianBlade6 votes

The thing is, while a lot of the listed champs are annoying (although some i don't get at all why they're on the list) they don't have overloaded kits. They may have one ability (e.g. tryndamere ult) which is really cheesy or annoying to play against, but they don't have 7 different abilities/effects stacked in to q/w/e/r.

Look at most of certainlyT's creations. How many of the recent ones have one passive and 4 abilities? Of those, how many have apparent weaknesses in their kits and/or reasonable kits (e.g. thresh is not guilty of having way too many abilities, he only has 1 extra with the death sentence follow up, but he's often characterized as having 3 ultimates and only 1 regular skill - his lantern is better than some champions ultimates, his death sentence similarly).

Obviously these champions are fun to play. They can do so much more because they have twice as many abilities as anyone else... the challenge of making a champion would be to make it fun to play within the constraint of 4 abilities. Putting an active on a passive (azir), or passives on actives (e.g. fizz, kalista, tahm kench, etc...) is okay if it's on 1 ability perhaps, but gets overkill when you read a kit and it goes :

Passive: something that sounds actually powerful Q: passive. Active. Active in special case. W: active that rivals an existing ultimate E: active, active in special case R: passive, game changing active.

Ralanr2 votes

With the exception of Ekko, who has an overloaded kit.

ValyrianBlade2 votes

Well, I'll need you to give me a list of CertainlyT's champions to make an accurate response here - I looked for one but I think it's incomplete as there were other champions he's been blamed for that weren't on that list.

Also, my response was largely meant as informative - i.e. not my own opinions but a collection of what I've read in complaints against CertainlyT's champions. Meant to explain to the OP why people dislike his champions and hate on him more than the other designers.

To give an example to answer your question though: Yasuo.

He has 2 passives - double crit (which could be an ultimate in its own right), and a periodic shield which is powerful in its own right (although it does have counterplay).

His Q: Basic ability is a short ranged linear skillshot. Added effect, stacking twice results in the third doing something different (a knockup). Added interaction with his E, changes linear skillshot to circular AOE. Added cooldown mechanic - reduced cooldown based on bonus attack speed. (note, that's already 4 components in his first active skill).

W: Wind wall, blocks all projectiles on an instant cast. Not that it's a bunch of effects, but could arguably be an ultimate (I mean, it negates a lot of ultimates... AND can protect not only himself, but his team).

E: Short ranged dash. Extra effect: Can dash to additional enemies if they're there sequentially. Additional effect: Damage increased on successive casts.

R: Blink (like flash, instant dash rather than just really fast) and do loads of damage. Additional effect: suspends them (basically prolonged knockup). Additional effect: ignores 50% of bonus armor for next 15 seconds. Additional effect: generates maximum flow.

The only skill in his entire kit that comes close to "normal" is his E, which is limitless dashes. Like seriously, that alone is normally something a lot of people complain about. So even in a state where he's balanced and has weak match-ups and can be beaten, he's still going to be annoying at best. His wind wall just infuriates every ADC. His Q and R seem overloaded.

It doesn't mean he has to be OP or can't be balanced, just that he becomes fun to play as, but unfun to play against. That's a recipe for disaster, a popular champion that no one wants to play against even if he's weak.

Ralanr1 votes

Darius Thresh Kalista Zyra and Yasuo I believe.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

Darius: new or old? New is pretty self explanatory, old invalidated all melee opponents in top lane. Not overloaded, but really not something good to have in the game.

Thresh: already mentioned he has 3 ultimates.

Kalista: Not bad to be honest - the infinite-hops is pretty gross and has resulted in a lot of nerfs to her. Also has a passive on her W, and her ultimate was the first ability that forced an ally to do something even if they didn't want to (which prior to her was taboo).

Zyra: Okay, I have no idea... I see nothing wrong with Zyra.

Yasuo: See previous post...

But seriously, only 5 champions? I'm pretty sure he's been blamed for Lee Sin, so maybe just the complainers aren't informed at all (in which case OP has a really good point). How you can judge someone on 5 champions, even if 3 of them are obviously pretty nasty designs and the 4th is questionable, while only 1 fits nicely - that's way too few to really complain about the designer. Not to mention, all relatively new champions. Obviously they're not going to be WWs or Annies...

Ralanr1 votes

He's basically considered the devil of league. Something bad? CertainlyT's fault.

CertainlyT did something bad? Better nerf Irelia.

Uiraya2 votes

Ekko's title should be I Can't Believe It's Not CertainlyT, because he's drenched in his stank.

I'm not opposed to new ideas. I'm opposed to passives having passives and champs having everything they could possibly need on kits so overloaded that Lee Sin's starting to feel like he isn't Riot's special little boy anymore.

Tilomentry4 votes

Problem is that CertainlyT consistently designs all his champions in such a way that, while enjoyable to play as, they are also the most frustrating things to deal with. On the other hand, while Xypherous designed both Riven and helped design Fizz , he also designed Nautilus and Orianna . He puts out as many interesting champions as infuriating ones.

So no CertainlyT hasn't made all the bad champions in the game. But all the champions he makes usually end up being hated.

Slamurai Jack2 votes

{quoted}

Problem is that CertainlyT consistently designs all his champions in such a way that, while enjoyable to play as, they are also the most frustrating things to deal with. On the other hand, while Xypherous designed both Riven and helped design Fizz , he also designed Nautilus and Orianna . He puts out as many interesting champions as infuriating ones.

So no CertainlyT hasn't made all the bad champions in the game. But all the champions he makes usually end up being hated.

Do you actually enjoy playing against Nautilus? Have we so quickly forgotten the horror of laning against Nautilus support? Do you enjoy not being able to move for 4-5 seconds? Do you enjoy not ever being able to teamfight as a squishy melee champion whenever his ult is available? I don't.

This is Xypherous' full lineup. Fizz Heimerdinger Lulu Nautilus Orianna Renekton Riven Fizz and Riven are among the most qq'ed about champions of all time. Heimer is Heimer. Lulu's kit is overloaded to the same degree that Thresh's is. Naut is such a CC powerhouse that people will pick him wherever they can get away with him. It wasn't that long ago that Orianna was the definitive mid laner and had to be nerfed several times to not be pick or ban status. Renekton defined who could and could not go top lane for over a year. So please, don't pretend as if CertainlyT is the only one designing champions that are frustrating to play against; Xypherous' entire catalog is made up of those champions.

Tilomentry1 votes

So just because there was a point in time that a champion was strong, they are automatically added to the list of "Champions who are poorly designed and deserved to be crucified for existing"? By that logic Anivia Brand and Rammus are all BS champions that should be added to the list. Hell, every champion should be added to the list for that reason.

Heimerdinger Nautilus Orianna Renekton are only every irritating to deal with when they are in power and this is true for every champion. But at all other times in the game, they are perfectly fine to play against and you will hear no one complaining about them.

Unless you can say for certainty that there was a point in time that a champion was not a headache to deal with but could still fight back with with a good chance of winning, then can you say a champion is well designed by an interation standpoint. Most of Xypherous' line up can say this. Most of CertainlyT's cannot.

Angry Monster3 votes

Person does X that people do not like, but it is ok cause they did not do Y that people do not like......

What?

This is a logical fallacy.

Slamurai Jack3 votes

It's more to show that making a champion that people don't consider toxic or unfun to play against while also being fun to play is far more difficult than people think. If you really want to go into it, the majority of the champions in this game arguably feel shitty to play against and the majority of the ones that don't feel unfair to play against are either garbage or almost never played.

Ralanr1 votes

I really don't get the whole, "Fun to play against" philosophy. It's a worthy goal, but there's always going to be someone who hates playing against something.

Angry Monster1 votes

is far more difficult than people think

actually does not prove that at all.

majority of the champions in this game arguably feel shitty to play against

I disagree, this your opinion please do not apply it everyone else.

Fact of the matter is that your OP proves and displays nothing. This is how you feel not a fact. You also fail to prove that this is a valid idea or the process. You make a lot of claims and then have 0 back up. You come off saying everything is bad so X can be bad also. This is horrible way of thinking; not because negative it is just a trash thought process.

Being diamond does not get you a pass at everything. Try something called minimum standards.

Catastrop1 votes

I actually like Kalista to be honest. It's fun to be blue-green and hop around throwing spears at people. Also, you listed Rengar thrice XD, I sense some serious salt from OP about that specific champion.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

This list is more about champions that people say feel like shit to play against rather than as. Champions that aren't satisfying to play are a whole other discussion that deserves it's own post.

As for Rengar, I honestly have no idea how that monstrosity even got off the drawing board. The only champion design as inherently toxic as release Rengar was Eve back when she still had her stun. They've changed Rengar a lot to make him more palpable (he's still pretty retarded), but the initial offering was completely unprecedented and violated a multitude of Riot's supposed design principles. (resourceless sustain, stealth combined with massive burst, targeted hard CC, 0 risk split pushing, etc.)

darapier171 votes

didn't put Rengar ?

Sasogwa1 votes

Well, I hate CertainlyT for Kalista, the other champions I don't really care. Thresh kinda boring to play against but a bunch of supports have similar levels of kite (Braum/Nautilus) Because against most of the champions you quoted, you can at least do something if you vary your build. Against Kalista, well... You're melee and prone to kiting? Oh well, she doesn't even need her team, you won't be able to hit her once, it's just so infuriating to play against. It's stupid babysitted autokite. Why would Riot release something like this? I mean; I'm completely fine with the rest of her kit, even her Rend being able to secure barons. But her passive is just a big f*ck you to most melee champions who don't have ridiculous mobility. Even Vayne, which I hate a lot for similar reasons, has at least some power of her kite in stealth, which you can counter with pinks, oracle's lens. Kalista? Niet.

I mean, being kited is not fun for a melee champion. Doing a champion entirely revolving around that mechanic with... literally infinite resourceless kiting? Please. I just can't help myself but to hate CertainlyT for that. Even if I think he has talent and is probably quite intelligent and creative.

And Kalista isn't necessarily OP, it's just her design that sickens me.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

Well, melee and easy to kite but can't vary your build?

Isn't thornmail pretty much perfect for dealing with kalista? Dead man's plate can also help you keep up. Righteous glory can proc to give you a MS boost.

Not saying she's fun to deal with in those cases, but she's one of those champions that you really should vary your build against.

Salron1 votes

Aside from the entirety of the Morde rework and Kalista's passive(Rest of her kit is pretty cool, especially her ult), CertainlyT's designs have been phenomenal. People tend to forget that it's the balance team who makes his champions broken as a result of overtuned numbers.

And you didn't put enough Rengars in that post

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