Some thoughts on Support, SightStone, and Stealth from a Shaco main

DrugsForRobots··2 votes·961 views

Wards currently have next-to-zero innate counterplay. The tiny bit of innate counterplay they have is the split second of visibility before they become invisible and the ward debris they leave upon dying. It's also nearly impossible to be stealthy (in the true sense of the word) because it is very difficult to ascertain if the enemy currently has vision of you or info of your whereabouts.

The most common defensive feature a ward has is invisibility. You can't see most wards, and have very few clues to go off of. Imagine, a stealth game where the obstacles you're suppose to be avoiding can't be seen and their position is unknown. That's exactly what we have with wards. How they control territory, or which territory is being controlled via wards, isn't evident to the players by virtue of the wards themselves. If you know about a ward's position it was because you saw your opponent place that ward, with himself likely having no idea that you had eyes on him. Wards don't give information to the enemy that they can use to their advantage outside of ward debris. The entire vision game is predicated on remembering a map of the likeliest warding spots just to participate in countering your opponent's vision setup (using a very limited set of item specific hard-counters or invisibility or alternate gank routes.)

To quote Xypherous talking about wards:

It's quite possibly the lamest building you can think of - 'Unmanned watchtower - does nothing but win.'"

The current functionality of wards flies in the face of everything that the stealth genre has taught us. One of the designers who worked on the Thief trilogy, Randy Smith, said that the most common aesthetic (i.e. a goal or gameplay fantasy, as Riot would say) a designer could aim for in making a stealth game is to:

Create the illusion of a securely guarded area that the player can sneak through by virtue of leveraging their unique abilities and tools to create and exploit security flaws."

Wards, in their current form, severely limit the possibility for stealth gameplay, precisely because their isn't much of anything to exploit. You can exploit their radius and skirt around them just outside of their vision range, which is actually a very good thing, but something that's very rarely seen, especially at my ELO. If your champion has invisibility in his or her kit you could use that to bypass wards, assuming the duration is long enough. If you've purchased one of the three items that hard-counters wards, you might could call that an outplay (but I wouldn't call it meaningful gameplay.)

It's the difference between something like Kalista's Sentinels and your standard yellow totem ward. Kalista's Sentinel's can be seen, as can their cone of vision, and their movement pattern is slow and consistent. They are clearly telegraphed, but in such a way that it demands some skill on behalf of the ganker / flanker to outmaneuver and get past them. You would have to be stealthy to do so. Contrast the gameplay of Kali's Sentinels with the static, invisible, 1000 unit AoE of sight that your yellow totem ward gives you. There's no real skill demanded on your part to outplay that ward. You either choose an alternate gank route or invisibility (both of which would require knowledge of the enemy ward in the first place) or... use one of the three items that hard-counter wards and come back later.

If Riot wants to make the support role more fun, or turn more people on to it, maybe they should take another look at their vision and stealth system. If all of our wards had some inherent counterplay or a way to outplay them unique to that ward, then we wouldn't necessarily need red trinket to counter their vision setup. And if all of the wards had some exploitable weakness, some flaw or limitation in their vision, then they wouldn't be so powerful, meaning they could stand to be cheaper, while at the same time those exploitable weaknesses, flaws, and limitations emphasize that stealth is required to outplay them. And if wards were cheaper, supports could afford real items and everyone could participate in warding equally. And because wards were so cheap, and everyone was participating in warding, things like SightStone and it's ilk wouldn't be strictly necessary.

TL;DR - Maybe what we need isn't more wards, but a greater selection and variety of vision options, with their own exploitable weaknesses and unique benefits.

For the record, Riot has repeatedly confused stealth with invisibility. The two are not the same. You can be invisible and not be stealthed. Stealth is a mindset and a play-style. Invisibility is the game mechanic. (This nonsense about 'camouflage' just illustrates the confusion that has overtaken the Rioters. 'Camouflage' is just invisibility based on proximity. Classifying it as a type of 'stealth' is misleading at best.)

Stealth: (stĕlth) n. cautious and surreptitious action or movement; the quality or characteristic of being furtive or covert.

Invisibility: (ĭn-vĭzˈə-bəl) n. not visible; out of sight; unseen; impossible to view.

15 Comments

DrugsForRobots2 votes

Wish I knew why I was getting downvoted.

Is it because I play Shaco?

It is isn't it?

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Wish I knew why I was getting downvoted.

Is it because I play Shaco?

It is isn't it?

LolBoard being lol boards. They read the title and nothing else.

cope moment1 votes

i personally feel that warding right now is ok at the moment. Warss aren't supposed to have much counterplay, as their job is to tell you if a gank is coming and if you should avoid it. If you couldn't see the gank coming, it'd make landing much much more painful than it is now.

DrugsForRobots2 votes

If wards were fallible, they could afford to be cheaper. If they had more counterplay (which means being fallible), they could afford to be more powerful.

If we have vision options so that we can mix and match to suit the enemy, our comp, and compensate for the weaknesses of other wards, jungling would become a lot more exciting, as, being the jungler, you know you can outplay the enemy's vision defenses, but you need to be good / careful / mindful which is what stealth is all about.

cope moment1 votes

I do understand your point from a jungler standpoint, but as a support main, i don't want my vision bypassed or counterplayed without me being able to prevent it. I do see your point though with wanting more variety.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

I do understand your point from a jungler standpoint, but as a support main, i don't want my vision bypassed or counterplayed without me being able to prevent it. I do see your point though with wanting more variety.

Lets use my example of a Cone ward.

You could place it at a farther safer place and get more sight of a wider area, and the enemy would have to clear it to make it safe for the jungler to gank, and thus you would also be insensitivity to not only place it smartly, but defend it.

This would actually make laning more safe, and jungling more difficult, but also more dynamic and interesting, as the jungler now can know that X area is visible to the enemy and thus wouldn't gank unless they had a way to clear the vision or bypass it, which depending on the enemy jungler is something you would itemize for to begin with.

Right now it's kinda just

"is it warded? "

-Yes? Well they saw me and I just wasted my time/ cornered and got killed -No? Well i got to kills bot lane/burned sums.

cope moment1 votes

Sounds like a good idea.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

As a Support player, I personally like the idea of wards with different effects and weaknesses.

For example, what of there was a ward that had vision in a far radius in a cone, but the cone was only in one direction

Or a Ward that gave Vision in a wide radius but it spun around said radius meaning it would cover a large circumference but not all an once. it would to a degree, actually make warding more fun, because it wouldn't be as mindless.

You would have to pick the right vision tool for the right situation and need and playing around vision would also be more interesting, as you would have to act according to what vision tool is being used.

DrugsForRobots2 votes

Exactly!

I would hope that being within the conic AoE of sight would give me a little icon letting me know that that kind of ward had eyes on me. With the spinning ward, I would hope that it's conic AoE is visible so that I could try to outplay it.

I also like the idea of a ward that grants no sight, but gives off an audible / visible ping (that enemies can hear) whenever an enemy comes withiin its range. It would've already saved us from the gank, but the enemy now has a chance to play smarter and / or take advantage of the fact that we can't see which way they've gone.

Tons of possibilities.

Kr1sys2 votes

You probably should've left the Shaco part out of your title because people probably thought you meant something specific about Shaco, when in reality the post is more about ward variety.

I like the idea of various options for supports. I kind of think they should have some unique items just by being support similar to jungle. Some of the items this season, like Redemption, are a good start and hopefully more options come around down the road.

Oglaf1 votes

Wards have no counterplay?

Laughable.

item 3341 item 3364

Of course, there is a decision to be made: do you give up your own Warding (defensive) to go for their Wards (offensive)? There's actually quite the intricate "vision war" going on when you think about it.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

I said innate counterplay. If I'm relying on an external item just to be able to interact with the ward object...

The red trinkets wouldn't necessarily need to exist (or would be far more useful) if the wards themselves were far more easier to find / discover (because they had some innate feature or clue that gave away their relative position.) I can't tell you how often I've used red trinket only to discover zero wards, or a ward 10s away from dying.

Big Lincoln1 votes

Wards currently have next-to-zero innate counterplay.

you can tell when something is warded by watching how the enemy team behaves. If a lane you're trying to gank suddenly backs off when they were starting to get aggro, it's warded. If you try to steal an enemy camp but you see the enemy team moving toward you, it's warded.

we don't need to nerf vision more than we already have, thanks.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

That's true, but I'm not sure you can call that innate counterplay for the ward itself. You didn't outplay the ward, there wasn't any real demonstration of skill on your part, you just used context clues to determine that your position has been compromised / the enemy has info of you.

we don't need to nerf vision more than we already have, thanks.

I'm actually saying we need more vision options because the ones we have are really lame. Functional, to be sure, but lame.

Big Lincoln1 votes

I'm actually saying we need more vision options because the ones we have are really lame.

be careful about this. we've seen what happens to champions that are functional but 'lame' a good number of times. Shen Mordekaiser, not to mention the jungle getting reworked every season because no matter what, riot will say it's stale.

you just used context clues to determine that your position has been compromised / the enemy has info of you.

But this is a skill. even in mid-high plat ranks, it's not a skill that people have mastered yet.

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