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Infographic about Stealth and how Riot has been secretly preparing for a Stealth Update

DrugsForRobots··69 votes·6,262 views
The Truth About Stealth

Unbeknownst to the community, and maybe even the Rioters themselves, Riot has everything in place for the Assassin Update to become the Stealth Update.

This is my love letter to Shaco, Eve, Teemo, Rengar, and all the rest.

X-Post on Reddit. No one on Reddit cares.

Can we get a serious discussion about stealth going?

Why does Riot seem to avoid stealth?

They don't really talk about, we haven't gotten a stealth champion in ages, the general feeling from the community is 'its hard to balance' and 'unfun'. The champions with stealth can't get any love. :(

Why not give us more variety in the way sight, stealth, detection, and denial are expressed?

IDK what the Reds have planned, but they're creative people. I hope they'll put that creativity to good use when it comes to Stealth. It would be a shame for them to abandon the wonderful design space and depth that stealth brings to League

The Red's progress with the vision game is amazing - we've been given abilities that no one was dreaming of 4-5 years ago. Designs no one ever thought to see. IDK why they turn a blind eye to stealth! </3

Are tell-tale signs not a worth-while middle ground?

I've noticed a lot of people on the Boards and elsewhere say 'League should have HotS style stealth', this 'shimmer' effect. HotS's shimmer is an amazing effect, but Riot shouldn't limit themselves to it. Make such an effect peculiar to a single champion. Variety in the way invisibility is expressed is crucial for good counterplay.

Has anyone considered the implications of Nearsight giving players the feeling of being in the dark?!

THIEF started it. Being in the dark is fun. It's like the defining element of the stealth genre. Overlays are awesome, but Nearsight gives me goosebumps.

If warding is little more than a necessary evil, why not shift that power (vision) onto our champions?

All of Lux's abilities (all of them) could grant sight similar to her E. Also, Bard's Shrines don't give vision, but he's a Support, but Shaco's boxes do, but he isn't? Riot, please.

Is the word interplay ever tossed around at Riot?

I know counterplay is, but the guys at Critical Gaming Network define interplay as: "Counters or the continual chain of back and forth counters between any two gameplay elements. The essence of gameplay." They state, furthermore: "Causing interesting choices to emerge in gameplay is a matter of making a game complex (rules/properties) and interconnected (dynamics/interplay) enough so that the gameplay (mechanics/choices) is balanced and varied."

Edit: Special Thanks to:

  • AD Ezreal for turning me on to the idea of interplay and the Critical Gaming Network
  • BowlOfOneTonSoup and his gang for humoring me
  • Willbachbakal for planting the idea in the first place
  • The clones from r/ShacoMains and the boys from LoL Wiki for being good sports.

99 Comments

Tundra Fizz23 votes

That infographic is formatted very nicely and overall looks really beautiful.

DrugsForRobots3 votes

Thanks! Hopefully it's coherent too? X.X

Tundra Fizz3 votes

{quoted}

Thanks! Hopefully it's coherent too? X.X

Yep it's all pretty straightforward and makes sense. I've also played D&D in the past so I liked the part where you mentioned that too.

MrBuffington19 votes

Riot has been secretly preparing for a Stealth Update

Well how else are you going to prepare for a stealth update?

DrugsForRobots6 votes

I mean that 'the steath update' has been a long time coming. Years in the making. And Riot never breathed a word about it, no one knew, not even a whisper.

Our last stealth champion was Kha'Zix in 2012. It looked to us that Riot had simply shelved stealth. Riot never stopped advancing the vision game though. They gave us the trinket update in season 4, and season 5 had the changes to jungle monsters (wolf, raptors, and skuttle), and late in season 5 we got the "Eyestones".

And over those years, we get Thresh, Quinn, Kalista, Rek'Sai, Azir, Illaoi, Tahm Kench, Jhin, and Aurelion Sol. One thing that all these champs have in common is a really unique (powerful, but within reason) way of playing with vision (props if you can name them all.)

They've even grown gutsy enough to put nearsight on a number of different champions, when before it was just Graves and Nocturne.

And recently so many people have been clamoring for pink wards, but Riot knows that pink wards (these instant speed True Sight AoE consumables) are as much of a problem as stealth is. Yet they haven't gone back to the old trinkets? Some people seem to think the Reds are stupid, but I'm inclined to believe otherwise...

I find it odd that they only kinda mention how they might look at stealth during the Assassin Update, which is suppose to come 'later this year'. Like, around pre-season?

Maybe I'm crazy, or maybe...

inb4 Assassin Update is revealed as a front for the Stealth Update. Surprise. Shaco

Mistress Madoka4 votes

Thresh : You don't know what way he's casting Q untill it launches Quinn : Nearsights the enemy (and my god is it annoying) Kalista : Sentry that Patrols with a cone of Vision, Screams and Reveals enemy champions it finds RekSai : Tremor Sense Azir : If his Soldiers are Visible, he is Visible. He grants the enemy True sight of himself if his soldiers are in their view. Illaoi : That splooshy wibbly overlay TahmKench : Extreme Nearsighting when he eats you Jhin : Thos flower Traps reveal you when you set them off AurelionSol : You can see his orbiting stars if they're in visual range. even if you can't see him.

RamRanchDressing2 votes

Jhin The zoom-out on his ult Quinn Her W Thresh Lantern

Pierce The Veal2 votes

{quoted}

I mean that 'the steath update' has been a long time coming. I mean years in the making. And Riot never breathed a word about it, no one knew, not even a whisper.

Our last stealth champion was Kha'Zix in 2012. It looked to us that Riot had simply shelved stealth. Riot never stopped advancing the vision game though. They gave us the trinket update in season 4, and season 5 had the changes to jungle monsters (wolf, raptors, and skuttle), and late in season 5 we got the "Eyestones".

And over those years, we get Thresh, Quinn, Kalista, Rek'Sai, Azir, Illaoi, Tahm Kench, Jhin, and Aurelion Sol. One thing that all these champs have in common is a really unique (powerful, but within reason) way of playing with vision (props if you can name them all.)

They've even grown gutsy enough to put nearsight on a number of different champions, when before it was just Graves and Nocturne.

And recently so many people have been clamoring for pink wards, but Riot knows that pink wards (these instant speed True Sight AoE consumables) are as much of a problem as stealth is. Yet they haven't gone back to the old trinkets? Some people seem to think the Reds are stupid, but I'm inclined to believe otherwise...

I find it odd that they only kinda mention how they might look at stealth during the Assassin Update, which is suppose to come 'later this year'. Like, around pre-season?

Maybe I'm crazy, or maybe...

inb4 Assassin Update is revealed as a front for the Stealth Update. Surprise. Shaco

You're probably overthinking it, buuut, I like all the effort you've put into this!

Insanity Song7 votes

I WANT SENTRY AND SNITCH

Mandang06 votes

Even with additional means of preventatively detecting stealth champs, I think players are still going to find stealth obnoxious until you have more reactive counterplay to it (in the same way that preventative counterplay to assassins isn't appreciated and players want more reactive counterplay there as well).

Also, I might be misunderstanding you, but this talk of nearsight getting added to stealth sounds misplaced to me, as they serve two very different purposes. Stealth prevents one sneaky champ from being seen by potentially an entire enemy team, often for long periods of time. Nearsight prevents potentially an entire allied team from being seen by those enemies affected, and typically only lasts a short time. A world where the sneaky champs also get the latter sounds miserable to me.

Lastly, and a smaller gripe, it feels so hamfisted to always allow stealth to generate a gold advantage in forcing the enemy team to purchase consumable counters. ("Just pink ward her!") Trinkets address this somewhat, but require you to already have the stealth champ on top of you, at which point it might already be too late.

Shacolata6 votes

As a Shaco main Pinks are extremly annoying to plah around , the problem is PINK WARDS ARE THE ONLY DAMN COUNTER (besides red trinkets which don't give you full vision of a stealthed champion) it would be nice if Riot added more interactions with vision as shown in the Infographic , would love it

DrugsForRobots2 votes

Man I hope so. Doesn't have to be these ideas exactly, but the way people are currently using Pink Ward like it's a substitute Oracle's Elixir at instant speed is just wrong.

Jet Sett5 votes

Balanced stealth mechanics that AREN'T one-sided to the point where it's op or useless? I like it!

DrugsForRobots2 votes

Thanks!

Gotta raise awareness before Riot does something drastic like remove stealth entirely. I really hope they see the vision interplay loop!

warpenguin5555 votes

why is nocturne on that. he doesnt have any stealth.

Battlecast Sona3 votes

because he can give everyone nearsight (one of the other vision effects he talks about)

Ginger9764 votes

{quoted}

why is nocturne on that. he doesnt have any stealth.

Because he causes nearsightedness, same as TK. It's a subset of the idea of stealth.

Ryzing2Diamond4 votes

As cool as some of your ideas are, they definitely would need refinement. If most of these ideas were implemented, they'd feel as clunky as the entirety of Dota 2, which tbh was ripped (Recreated) straight out of WC3 without many improvements/changes.

Meep Man2 votes

No need for trash talk here please. Anyways, I agree. A lot of these would need refinement and changes to better fit the current League.

I especially like the ward ideas. Now that the warding system has been cleaned up to where it's not so depressing to invest into (especially for Supports), it would be cool to add in more types of wards beyond just Normal and Farsight.

Ryzing2Diamond4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=64mkKjad,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-07-01T21:15:38.080+0000)

No need for trash talk here please. Anyways, I agree. A lot of these would need refinement and changes to better fit the current League.

I especially like the ward ideas. Now that the warding system has been cleaned up to where it's not so depressing to invest into (especially for Supports), it would be cool to add in more types of wards beyond just Normal and Farsight.

The ward ideas are really Really cool, especially the Sentry. But I don't see why anyone would choose any ward other than Beacon, and just defend it. It would be sort of like Blue Trinket in pre-season, before they increased the cooldown. They might need more drawbacks, I don't know. Some seem rather weak and others too strong. I'll post back if I get any ward ideas though.

No trashtalk intended. I was just stating what Dota 2 felt like to me, and I had played Dota (And Dota-likes) on WC3 too, soooo...

Carmasa3 votes

Meanwhile, Kha'Zix left unloved by any stealth overlay, and left untouched in this infographic. QQ

DrugsForRobots2 votes

I didn't forget about Kha or Akali or any of the others. I didn't mention him because I think his stealth is one of the least problematic and frustrating.

That being said, I think it would be cool if Kha's unique tell-tale was the 'shimmer' effect from HotS that so many seem to admire.

9kPluzZ3 votes

There is absolutely no problem with stealth. Its a mechanic that keeps snowball champions keep and maintain a lead into the lategame (Rengar Evelynn Shaco ) Not only are all these champs weakish right now, but if stealth could be easily counterplayed constantly and consistantly what would be the fun in playing stealth champions? Whats the fucking point in them even existing? Stealth champs trade off damage mitigation and movement abilitys for it, its completely fair.

You shouldn't be able to "deal" with stealth. BUT you should be able to prepare for stealth champions, so that when the exit stealth, then they can be dealt with. Stealth as a whole is only OP vs stupid players and shitty team comps.

DrugsForRobots5 votes

I don't think 'snowball champion' is a valid niche or strategic identity. The idea of a snowball champion implies that, regardless of skill, if you can get a lead you'll be unstoppable and win the game. Maybe I'm wrong though.

I also think that if stealth had greater inherent counterplay, the champions themselves could afford to be more powerful, which would give them legitimacy when ahead (despite their tells they outsmarted and outmaneuvered their prey) and not totally impotent when behind.

I do agree that trading damage mitigation and movement abilities for stealth is fair.

You said:

You should be able to prepare for stealth champions, so that when they exit stealth, then they can be dealt with.

This is my point. That's why we need tell-tale signs. You get a clue as to where they are, where they went, etc. and deal with them. I get the feeling you're talking about carrying around Vision Wards, but if you're dropping a pink after the enemy has come out of stealth, you're doing it wrong.

Elikain8 votes

Snowball is just another word for "you can't 1v1 me anymore". Assassins, when ahead, can be really strong to deal with alone (as with any champion for that matter) but if you add stealth to that equation, the situation can often feel like there's nothing you can do to prevent someone's death.

In Rengar's case, his unique mechanic of collecting trophies from kills (and get utility out of it that can't be lost), having a ranged attack pattern from bushes and then maxing out on CDR to abuse his stealth where it's not even needed at this point is what makes him a big problem. These mechanics are put in place to help him reach his full potential and what's worse is that there's no button to dial it down when he does. He becomes super strong and a presence on the entire map out of fear he's always going to attempt to kill someone with his short CDR ult and even if we uses it with no kill, the window in which your team can attempt a counterattack is really short.

Shaco shares the same problems with Rengar. Although not in such a scary manner, the problem with Shaco is free Flash + Stealth and easy jungling which tends to spill over in counter-jungling and always being near your lanes that you can't properly ward. I'd feel like it would be less of a problem if he could come at you from the usual places rather then him bypassing walls and evading the usual vision spots. Towers don't offer much protection against him as their vision radius extends just a bit into the lane and is there to act as a protector to any kind of divers and enable a laning phase.

Zed has a similar problem. Even if he doesn't have any stealth in his kit, the added Youmuu's utility + his double shadow jump to gap close from a really far away and exercise his lead by constantly covering a larger then intended area of influence, where you are not even safe from a screen distance away if he spots you and wants you dead. If you play this perfectly (with constant aggression and then playing a denial game), you get a free laning phase and an effective opponent's removal from the game, no matter who you're playing against.

Voidrey3 votes

I actually had this idea to combat invisible champion. if a champion enters the river, the water will give off ripples where they are, similar to Rek Sai's tremor sense, only faster. if their standing still in the river, then ripples will come more slowly. this happens to all champions, invisible or not (except when your using the the Ghost summoner spell).

there was also this rain mechanic that happens randomly that spreads large puddles everywhere around the map that does the same. there probably a lot of flaws that wont make this work, but I had fun thinking this up

DrugsForRobots1 votes

Nice! I would want them to be subtle though (Rek'Sai's detection is already very powerful and it comes with a trade-off; this would be a universal detection available to everyone, sooo... subtlety is needed.)

I've often wondered how the vision game would be different if League had weather and / or day-night cycles.

The possibilities of vision and information in the MOBA genre are so vast! The sheer number of cool effects make me want to develop my own MOBA. ;p

Voidrey2 votes

I also had this idea for Night cycle. at night your vision around you reduced, a little bigger than during Rek Sai's burrow, and have a larger range of vision in front of you. Wards are also have reduced vision.

When Night falls, these torches stuck on terrain around the map activate. each side has an even number of torches and they provide the vision of a regular ward. each team tries to extinguish enemies torches and relight the them as their own, thus gaining more vision for them.

Time422 votes

Very nifty infographic. :D

Since you mention wanting to start a discussion about stealth.. 20thCenturyFaux and Scarizard briefly talked about stealth on the latest design stream:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo80Ng-cJeA

Xypherous and Scarizard also talked about it on another stream a while back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPNDcdy-lYY

DrugsForRobots2 votes

Cool! Thanks for sharing these!

It makes me happy to hear that they actually like Red Trinket's effect, and that they like (for the most part) Shaco, Eve, and Wu's stealth! (They even mention Shaco and Wu's tell-tale signs!) I hope that they trend toward unique individual stealth forms (rather than a standardized stealth model) and softer counters to it. <3

Time422 votes

No problem! Agreed, it sounds like a good solution for the future. :D

DrugsForRobots2 votes

Also, can I put these in the Body of the main post? They're super valuable insights into how Riot designs and the kinds of stuff they have to think about.

Also, why can't I find the streams on YouTube?? :(

Time422 votes

Yep, sure. :D

Ahh they're only on Twitch as far as I know. It's a bit awkward because the design streams don't have the right titles. :P Twitch link

Design streams are every Thursday, so here's the latest one (even though the title says it's the playtest stream): https://www.twitch.tv/leagueoflegends/v/75504453

TheMostMachoMan2 votes

Also, inb4 the Eye Of The VoidVelkoz actually gets sight on his abilities

DrugsForRobots1 votes

I wonder what % of the player base associates True Sight with the colors pink and purple? And eyes?

TheMostMachoMan2 votes

You'd think though, that a giant eyeball octopus, would have vision on those abilities, maybe not his Q so much, but the other parts of his kit fit it a bit more aptly, its all about information, this guy is meant to learn bout the people here, so why not put a nice go-pro in that void rift?

Time422 votes

I vaguely remember them mentioning in a design stream that some of their ideas for the mage update were related to Velkoz and actual vision. I think they decided against bigger changes because people on his board thread were asking for his kit to stay the same. :V

ltmetal2 votes

Bump and placeholder for later.

DrugsForRobots1 votes

Still hoping to hear what you think about stealth and what Riot should do!

ltmetal2 votes

The main thing I want to see is increased vision options. Introducing stealth champions should follow, but only after there have been new vision mechanics introduced to enable stealth champions to exist in a balanced state.

franticFurball2 votes

Nice, ty!

Fashion Mage2 votes

Those ideas are awesome. Stealth would be awesome if they took these sorts of ideas into consideration.

Sire Hippington2 votes

Theres one important thing for stealth: NO TRUESIGHT!(vs champs) Hardcounters are generaly bad for the game, and truesight is an absolut hardcounter. The main reason why hardcounters are a big issue is that they are completly onesided as there is no counter to the counter, which takes away 'interplay', as it takes away choices and real decisions. Once the truesight is applyed, there is no further interaction between stealth and vision, because at that point, stealth is just removed, there is no back and forth between two gameplay elements, where is just the hardcounter basically removeing the countered element completely.

I like the other ideas to spice up vision, but if stealth should ever be implemented in a healthy way, we need to get rid of it's hardcounter and balance it around that, else it will never be usefull as a defensive tool like akalis W, as that defensive tool just ceases to exist if it is confronted with truesight.

There are also some other things to keep in mind with vision. Nearsight for example seems like a great concept, but i has it's own issues: Appling nearsight is feels not very rewarding for the user compared to how punishing it is for the victim, alas it usually creats more 'unfun' than 'fun'. That's an issue many CCs have to some extend, and one of the reason why knockups are very common compared to other hard cc on never chamos, as knockups are really statisfying to use even if the impact(duration) isn't that high.

Also, vision(and information in general) is much more valuable and thus powerfull than people give it credit for, Therefor, haveing vision as core element of a champion usually means that the specific champ feels overall lackluster as vision takes quite some powerbudget while not offering direct combat power. Also, utilizing information and thus vision always is tied tightly to team coordination and playerskill, so any champ that revolves alot around vision will be pretty weak in general if balanced for competetive. A good example for that is reksai, a champ that is staple in proplay for the utillity of her tremorvision, but yet is rather underwhelming for the average player as her direct combat power is pretty poor.

k wìx2 votes

This isn't the vision update we will get, but its the one we deserve!

I'd absolutely love these changes to vision and stealth, or at least this mindset going forward with stealth and vision design.

10/10. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

GhaelWinds2 votes

Those wards there would make the game a lot more interesting. I think what you mean is each person choose a type of the five at the beginning? And that become their default ward? I feel that would make it very interesting and good.

ADepressedLeona2 votes

As a support main, I would love new toys to help me see stealth champions.

Also I would like it if stealth was less binary in the sense that the stealth champion either gets out of control due to it's stealth, or the stealth champion gets pooped on due to a large portion of it's kit being nullified.

Erockandroll1 votes

I think the sentry would be the problemed one. Invincible, with true sight? That can give you uncontested vision of major objectives, pretty much for the rest of the game.

Stealth or otherwise, Riot is only going to make vision, as strong as peoples ability to remove it.

trash sion2 votes

{quoted}

I think the sentry would be the problemed one. Invincible, with true sight? That can give you uncontested vision of major objectives, pretty much for the rest of the game.

Stealth or otherwise, Riot is only going to make vision, as strong as peoples ability to remove it.

Infinite health, still a set duration.

JustARivenMain1 votes

I personally think Invisibility on certain champs (like Teemo for example) got a huge nerf when Riot started giving indicators when you damage someone. (small red semi-circle around your champ) Too many games have i not been able to use bushes to escape with Teemo's passive because of Sunfire's AOE or other DOTs or AoEs just revealing that I AM in there, and what direction. Idk i just feel like it was better when you had to guess if Teemo was in the bush, not just immediately know and punish him for trying to escape with passive.

DrugsForRobots2 votes

I haven't noticed this 'red semi-circle' - how recent is this?

I'm not a Teemo main, but I've always felt that if my champ model collides with his I should be able to see him, even if temporarily. My thinking is, he shouldn't use his passive as an escape but rather a surprise and ambush tool.

It's also the reason I think he would benefit from Nearsight on his Q. 'Blind' the enemy just long enough to go into stealth with your passive. :^)

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