Boards›Gameplay

What CertainlyT Feared? (The Vision Paradox)

DrugsForRobots·10/26/2017, 1:25:49 PM·53 votes·2,933 views

#The Vision Paradox

The tendency for the LoL community to pay lip service to the power of vision, claim it wins games and is what separates the Pros from the Noobs, but then in the same breath suppose that wards would be better or more useful if they had combat effects: do damage somehow, or grant movement speed, or emit a health regen aura, or any number of other non-information related things.

Let me ask you, if vision is truly so powerful, can’t it stand on its own? Why do we need additional effects? I don’t think we do, but I see it, and even Xypherous has alluded to Riot considering such things, which is troubling.

I maintain that the problems surrounding the vision game - the lack of player’s appreciating vision and engaging in stealth gameplay - is due to the way vision is expressed. If wards were more overt in how they controlled territory and how exactly they functioned, Riot would find player’s vision scores increase across the board.

As I’ve stated elsewhere: every champion can use stealth, but certain roles and classes - the jungler, the supports, marksmen, and assassins - are closely tied with the vision game. And maybe, just maybe, if Riot were to really emphasize stealth gameplay and vision and the information game, then they could use it as a lever for balance.

Players should fight their opponents, not the game. We strive to present information in a clear and precise way so that League can be about dominating opponents with skill and teamwork – not through bookkeeping hidden information.

"Clarity means we want distinct, transparent mechanics in everything we design. When the outcome of a game hinges on a player’s ability to quickly assess the situation, information needs to be clear and accessible. This doesn't mean we tell players the best play to make, but we should make sure they have the right info to make calls as best they can." https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/9/92/Morello_%26_Better_Nerf_Irelia.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/95?cb=20140716220447 --- Ryan “Morello” Scott, Dev Blog: Design Values League of Legends

    The Rioters have repeatedly stated they want to ‘streamline’ the vision game. Yet every successful and praised stealth game has given the player a multitude of options for avoiding and misleading and manipulating their enemies and obstacles. And with League itself we are presented with over 75+ legendary and mythic tier items, all with a specific niche (ideally) and unique actives and special abilities for combat. Yet for some reason, applying this design to our vision and information gathering tools is not considered worth pursuing?

    CertainlyT, [when asked about what he thought of the current state of stealth in League](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6extCduY-QM), implied that he disliked the direction Riot was taking with wards - unique and special wards that don’t offer any compelling gameplay and replicate the same play patterns and behaviors that our current wards offer is self-defeating. Variety for variety’s sake - variety that doesn’t carry any additional depth or interaction for players to master or express themselves - creates a bloated and inelegant game. 

    Yet this is the path Riot is pursuing with the addition of the Watchful Poro and Zombie Ward and other ward-related masteries. More ways of getting vision is necessary to promote stealth gameplay, but these expressions of vision carry with them all of the same problems as Riot’s current iteration of ward constructs, and are detrimental to stealth gameplay and, by extension, League, because as we established, it becomes nigh impossible to engage in stealth gameplay **when you are unable to determine whether or not you can be seen.**

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/a/af/Zombie_Ward_rune.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/52?cb=20171007115218 https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/4/42/Ghost_Poro_rune.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/52?cb=20171004082304

   [ One needs only look at Kalista’s Sentinels to understand how they allow stealth gameplay in a way that no other form of vision in League does.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlM-ugG84YM) CertainlyT also goes on to talk about how wards (with their current functionality) completely eclipse the need for supports with vision granting abilities: _"Things we would really need to resolve are what is that support doing with that [stealth] that fills the desires of a support player, in particular scouting or watching? It ends up not feeling that valuable because you could’ve just dropped a yellow trinket there. It’s always competing with 75g to use a slightly anachronistic cost."_

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/9/91/Sentinel.png/revision/latest?cb=20141104220351

    Hence, **I find it ironic that CertainlyT** is the one who designed Kalista and Darius, the only two champions to grant vision in a cone, and Thresh, who has one of the coolest vision granting abilities (this is incontrovertible) in League that also has tons of extra utility built into it (his Lantern) and Zyra, who also has built-in vision thanks to her Rampant Growth (if only it was all her Seeds like it was in the past, would that be too strong?) AND Warwick, the Uncaged Wrath of Zaun, with his Blood Hunt _Scent Trail_ - an ability on par with Rek’Sai’s _Tremor Sense_ in terms of getting information and thematic awesomeness, **is, on the one hand, one of the driving forces behind making stealth gameplay a reality in League, and on the other hand, cannot or did not see the need for different expressions or forms of vision and information when it comes to wards.**

    He understands that wards don’t feel valued, despite being incredibly valuable. I think this is entirely due to the way vision is expressed, which is currently, and has been for the longest time, a circular AoE of vision. This is undoubtedly the easiest way to express sight for League’s programmers, and it is obviously functional for the purposes of League, but as I tried to explain, it constricts the possible design space, as how can wards that offer vision in other forms, i.e. cones of sight or lines of sight, compete? The wards we currently have, with their circular AoE, effectively have no drawbacks and very little counterplay. They cover huge areas at very little cost or risk, and aren’t very interactive due to most of them being invisible or easily becoming invisible. Most of our interaction with them is limited to having one of a handful of specific anti-ward counter-items rather than a player's mechanical skill or timing.

So what can Riot do? What should they do?

I think we need actual clarity around the mechanics and elements that enable stealth gameplay and a wide selection of ways to become invisible, detect enemies, and gain vision. In other words, we need more ways of interacting with Riot’s information system both in gaining information and denying it (which amounts to Riot enabling / supporting / promoting stealth gameplay). More wards, more trinkets, more champion abilities, more legendary and mythic tier items that play with vision and detection. I know that’s dangerous, largely unexplored territory but I think Riot is equipped with the people and tech to give us some really interesting and creative ways of getting info, misleading and distracting our foes, and engaging in stealth gameplay.

There was recently a post on Reddit that garnered a lot of attention, indicating that a large number of players feel the same way and thing another look at vision would be a good thing for League.

If only Riot would open their eyes and embrace their destiny.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/1/1f/Destiny.png/revision/latest?cb=20150312021015

23 Comments

Teridax6810/26/2017, 9:29:36 PM16 votes

Your posts on vision and stealth are consistently excellent, and this is no exception. I fully agree, wards are a completely outdated mechanic at this point, and the irony is that while I do think players are right in saying it separates the noobs from the pros, I also think it does so for all the wrong reasons: because wards are so boring and difficult to appreciate, yet so valuable in actuality, newer or less advanced players don't really want to lay wards down, because warding is inherently not compelling, but pros will take the time to lay down wards all the time. Warding turns vision into a chore, when vision could be so much more interesting.

In-game, there are currently three ways of providing vision, and therefore stealth: there's vision through items, vision through champion kits, and vision through the environment. Here are my opinions on all three:

  • Vision through items is mandatory by nature when it exists, but is frequently boring: One of the core issues with vision when it's provided through items is that, unless there are hard limits to how much of it can be laid down, it will always fall to the support to stock up as much as possible on vision and anti-vision tools. This is why we have a hard cap on stealth and control wards, and why Sightstone is still mandatory, despite being almost universally disliked. Additionally, right now the whole game of laying down invisible vision tools, then randomly searching them out with other, dedicated hard counter trinkets and items, does not make for a vision game that is particularly clear or engaging. It is particularly unfortunate that these are the main tools players are given to access vision, as it is just about the least interesting form of vision in the game. For sure wards need to be overhauled, but I personally question the current item-centric state of the vision game, as vision-providing items will always be easier for newer players to overlook than champion abilities or environmental features.
  • Champion-based vision is treated more often as a convenience, rather than a real asset: Darius and Kalista are actually a great example of this difference: Kalista's Sentinels are an actual asset, as they take up an entire ability slot, have a real, interactive presence, and genuinely provide vision as the main bonus. Darius's E vision, by contrast, doesn't really provide new information, since Darius pulls every enemy in the cone to him anyways. We see this repeated across many kits, where vision or other means of detection, such as impact sounds, are handed out pretty arbitrarily, with no real relation to the champion or their theme. By contrast, champions who really should stand out as providers of vision, such as Lux, don't have that aspect of their theme honored at all. The way detection is implemented on champions needs to change radically, so that it only gets handed out when it's meant to be an actual asset, but then also gets treated as a legitimate, fun and powerful form of utility, as is already the case on a select few abilities (e.g. Kalista's W, Ashe's E, etc.).
  • Environmental vision is promising, but still very basic: Currently, there are to ways of getting vision through the environment, and that's through Scryer's Bloom and the Scuttle Crab. Scuttle is functionally a very localized ward, but Scryer's Bloom is a great way of temporarily getting information on an area. There is a lot more that can be done with this, I think, especially since the most efficient warding ends up only focusing on the same set of locations: putting plants at those locations with different vision effects could be a great way of setting the vision game up as a battle for territorial control via information, and having those plants around could help de-clutter the player's inventory while providing potentially even better gameplay, as well as more clarity. Ideally, though, we should move away from ward-style vision, i.e. Scuttle, and instead work towards making the most of each location if we're adding more vision plants (or even anti-vision plants).

I also fully agree that right now the biggest obstacle to stealth is the lack of clarity to vision and detection, mainly because of wards. Right now it's difficult to make stealth interactive because stealth hinges on vision, which is still largely uninteractive. Giving champions clear knowledge of when they're being detected, without them having to resort to dedicated anti-vision items, would be a huge step towards allowing more forms of stealth beyond just invisibility on a few kits.

TL;DR: I think vision and detection should be moved away from items and more onto champion kits and the environment, where it should be made much more clear, consistent, and interactive. Vision is powerful, but more importantly needs to feel powerful for everyone involved, whether it's the player laying it down, or the player getting detected while attempting to infiltrate a part of the map.

Rikirie10/27/2017, 10:39:26 AM2 votes

As a support main of four years, I wouldn't mind if they decided to expand the support role with more items related to vision. Buying just sightstone isn't compelling, if I had a whole branch of items related to vision it'd be more interesting. I'd be able to support beyond just a heal/buff bot.

SlashStriker10/26/2017, 10:24:09 PM2 votes

We strive to present information in a clear and precise way so that League can be about dominating opponents with skill and teamwork – not through bookkeeping hidden information

Vayne

In teamfights it's not very clear how i lose my health vs Twitch Twitch in less than a second

Standard o Honor10/27/2017, 12:43:10 AM2 votes

I like what you've said in regards to vision and stealth in your post. However, creating ways to play around stealth, FOW and engaging more with the vision game will have to slow the game down.

Here are some ideas that if implemented could make information gathering and vision a little more engaging while still allowing champions to get to their lanes, get to XP for a trade off of reliability and or cost.

-All wards/structures should be visible from a little over a persons vision range, like within 100-150 range in FOW.

-They should make wards that are like a lighthouse, spinning with visuals that allow people to potentially circumnavigate them without being observed. avoiding them takes a bit longer, but allows for surprise. doubling down and timing the spins could make it impossible to circumnavigate. (Forced to leave lane to construct, some effort to take down. neither expensive or cheap)

-purchase minions to follow a specific way-points determined when purchased that work similarly to Kallista's. (probably have to slow down how fast turrets die to allow for this though). Maybe force 3 points with with a minimal distance between so they have to circle something like red buff. Always leave from spawn, so invades could end them before they even get to their first point. Could be used to increase pressure or defense slightly somewhere as well simply by way-pointing them around a tower and forgoing the extra vision. 1 extra minion can create a pushing wave. (Easily avoided, but can get some vision and create pressure flexible so should cost more). trade off- buying a bunch early to establish solid vision will leave you significantly behind in lane.

-perhaps a trap(motion sensor) that pings when it goes off, but also notifies the enemy that they've triggered one. Can hop over them if you've found them previously or destroy them if you're the one who set it off. You can bait, by having your team wait for a response, walk back and forth over it to make enemy team think there's more than 1 person there. (forced to leave lane to place, misinformation, relatively cheap)

I'd keep trinket wards, but keep them visible and with new options reduce how many can be placed (don't want to change the game too much too quickly) continue to use sweepers, but instead make them simply temporarily negate vision of people in the area provided by wards, minions etc. make blue trinket, old clairvoyance, no ward gets placed.

Capturable areas that convey tiny bonuses to the team that controls them like in twisted treeline, so that a team can decide to give their location away by taking them or again go around them to surprise the enemy team. (Another target for Ohmwrecker perhaps disrupts bonus at range, or boosts the bonus it confers.) (has to be a tiny bonus or hyper mobiles like shaco, kayn might be OP)

** slightly unrelated, but possible fill in for capturable areas: I always felt there should be some sort of supply line type of thing that provides increased strength to defenses. My suggestion for this would be a spot between towers that connects them as long as it is under your control. While connected towers share defenses. My idea would be a shared regenerating shield of like 50pts per tower connected. so if your bot lane is under attack, but all towers are connected it would have a 150pt shield that slowly regens. but if disconnected because an enemy jungler invaded, the shield would be smaller and regen significantly slower. If 2 lanes that are connected were under attack, the shield would be reduced by both sets of attacks. This would slow the game down a lil bit, but would also make it harder for a significantly better lane to carry the early game to mid without a little bit of teamwork. Also, midlane will be harder to disconnect allowing a little more leeway for midlaners that don't have amazing wave clear.

Honestly any change to make the vision game will require a slight slowdown of the game in order for it to be something to play around... Right now you leave the lanes alone for a little bit of time and a tower is gone unless you have pressure. You spend time to avoid vision properly you're losing out on XP and pressure. I'm all for slowing the game back down a bit though. I'd prefer to see longer periods of time where mid-game champs are strong, right now feels like late game champs spike too quickly IMO.

vinnythetaco10/26/2017, 6:55:01 PM2 votes

Id love a ward that can see farther but is more of a thin line. Or one that goes over walls but only in a cone or something. Or even somethonglike one that only activates if an enemy walks in its line of sight but has a very short lifespan after that. Could even have some that cost a lot but slows one time when the first enemy walks into it but is expensive.

Knalxz10/27/2017, 1:25:39 PM1 votes

I just want to be able to buy a bunch of wards and plant them where ever I see fit.

Is that so terrible?

Mcsquzzy10/27/2017, 3:07:09 PM1 votes

if they add additional effects these item 2055 item 2303 item 2302 item 2301 item 2045 will become item 3504 and inevitably be nerfed

Morendabanus10/27/2017, 6:02:03 PM1 votes

CERTAINLYT OUR SENSIBLE HERO*[galio-happy]*

needHymn10/26/2017, 1:28:13 PM1 votes

[deleted]

koshkyra10/28/2017, 1:51:29 AM1 votes

RIP item 3649 consumable

k wìx10/26/2017, 1:34:33 PM1 votes

I agree with pretty much everything. Stealth and Vision need a minor rework at best, and a big overhaul at worst. It feels stale and uninspired.

**I think every single champion should get some interaction with wards or Vision. ** As a design challenge, this would be really, really fun to do - and you could completely expand on player expression with stealth/vision/wards. This also has the side-effect of encouraging everyone to buy wards.

Secondly, We need more tools. I would LOVE for them to revisit the idea of a Summoner Spell for Vision. And in addition, There are so many ward ideas ideas it is criminal how few options we have.

HeeroTX10/26/2017, 7:10:07 PM1 votes

Vision is undervalued for one simple reason: The VAST majority of players don't look at their mini-map. If I ward river, it doesn't really provide any improvement if I don't pay ATTENTION to the spot that was warded and see someone pass through the ward zone. Tactical vision serves no real purpose at low elo because people don't really use it even if they put down the wards. If Riot wants to train people to use vision, they should add some small random "reward" (like player specific gold) that appears randomly and is ONLY visible in the mini-map. This would force people to check their mini-map more often and theoretically lead to more usage for wards.

softest boy10/27/2017, 2:58:03 AM1 votes

I kind of loved and hated this idea that someone had with a smite equivalent support summoner spell. So essentially, it'd be a vision summoner spell. Then the support items would enhance this summoner spell in certain ways, or shift it to server a different type of vision purpose. The same idea could be applied to this, but it wouldn't really solve the issue with supports being ward slaves.

I still really enjoy the concept though!

I did a mock-up because I'm bored and avoiding homework,

Clairvoyance:

Reveal a targeted area for 30 seconds (Not global) Cooldown: 90 seconds

Nomad's Medallion Enhancement - Golden Dust: Becomes cone-shaped and is reduced to a 60 second cooldown; sends golden sand in a large cone ahead of you. Reveals all enemies, including stealthed champions, and increases the movement speed of allies caught in the cone.

Frostfang Enhancement - Ice Wraith: Send out an ice wraith to your cursor's location. The ice wraith will remain in place and act as a ward for 30 seconds. If an enemy champion approaches it, it will follow them, revealing them and slowing them for four seconds.

Targon's Brace - Protective Field: The revealed area leaves behind a field of mystical earth; allies that walk through it are applied with a shield that will charge to a maximum amount so long as they do not enter combat.

The Trent10/27/2017, 6:46:26 AM1 votes

Ye vision wins games, but only if you know how to look at the map. I know tons of people who always use their wards, but then never see the enemy jungler coming, so I have to ping it for them.