Just got 4-manned and lost our turret at level 4. Can someone on the balance team justify this?

Yenn·Oct 13, 2017·99 votes·4,542 views

Ashe + Taric vs. Varus + Sona. We got first blood on Sona and Varus was down about 18 CS because he had to recall and lost a huge wave.

A few minutes later, level 5 Aurelion Sol + level 4 Rengar both dive us (at level 4) from about 80% health. We knew it was happening and could not recall in time. Our jungle was too far to respond. Our mid cannot follow Aurelion Sol, because he's Aurelion Sol. They kill us, get out safetly, take the tower and proceed to snowball out of control.

Can someone on the balance team please let me know the justification behind this being okay? There is nothing we could have done to stop this, and a 1500 gold advantage at level 4 is game breaking. Turning bottom lane into a clusterfuck this early in the game should not be a viable strategy.

127 Comments

BârdOct 13, 201763 votes

Your team got outplayed on a macro level. Despite having hawkshot, nobody realized what was going on until it was too late.

With optimal team play, Ashe would scout the jungle for Rengar. Your jungler would interpret the hawkshot info to realize what side of the map rengar could be on, think what plays he could make from there, and move the counter them, while mid wards the bot side of the lane so he can scream bloody murder when A. Sol moves to gank.

Since this is likely solo queue, let's ignore that scenario. With optimal individual play, the situation can still be salvaged. At level 4, a tower isn't something you just brush off. If a dive lasts longer than expected, you will have casualties. You likely had enough CC (Exhaust, frost shot, Dazzle) that you could force them to tank more tower shots than they can survive, and you have enough sustain (Heal, Starlight, Bastion, Colossus, Warlords) that you can survive a decent bit longer than they might expect. One or both of you are still going to die most likely, but you definitely could have taken Rengar down with you at the very least. Your jungle and mid could rotate topside to punish or take the unattended mid tower. Your top could also TP down to respond.

Now, since this is a plat game, let's ignore that. After the trainwreck that just happened, you should ask your top laner for a lane swap. Without a T1 tower, you can't safely farm as Ashe, and a bruiser/tank is likely better able to hold down the fort against the nightmare poke of Varus+Sona than a squishy, immobile marksman.

tl;dr The enemy was proactive, and your team collectively failed to respond.

Not xPekeOct 13, 201766 votes

That's not even the point.

The point is that laning phase shouldn't end so abruptly and the so called "macro" play shouldn't be to just clusterfuck the botlane every single game. Win bot win game, and stuff like that.

Even watching the LCS you realise how everything goes around the botlane, even when there are many star midlaners and toplaners around.

Towers are made of paper - fact. They go down too easily.

XenomancersOct 13, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=Not xPeke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NzGQJfnY,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-10-13T11:43:00.260+0000)

That's not even the point.

The point is that laning phase shouldn't end so abruptly and the so called "macro" play shouldn't be to just clusterfuck the botlane every single game. Win bot win game, and stuff like that.

Even watching the LCS you realise how everything goes around the botlane, even when there are many star midlaners and toplaners around.

Towers are made of paper - fact. They go down too easily.

It not that they go down to easy - they just don't do enough damage. I think their damage should be constant too. A ramping up beam of damage. That's what it should be. Also - turret agro should change when allied campions are being attacked under it - it should switch to someone that is dealing damage to you OR switch to what you are attacking.

Not xPekeOct 13, 20173 votes

I think it's a bit of both.

I do agree that the tower aggro should switch considering how little damage they deal. If they're at least targetting a squishy, then the damage will be much more impactful than on a Tank who can take like 10+ tower shots and barely feel anything.

I also think the lazers need to be brought back.

Unfortunately what I took from the preseason changes is that towers will be even more abusable. For example the rune that damages towers - like a mini herald on tank champions. Riot's push for a snowbally and fast paced game is ruining the fun IMHO.

Mig89Oct 13, 201712 votes

Yes they should. This entire scenario could have been different with a couple wards..

Not xPekeOct 13, 201726 votes

Again... you miss the point.

A tower shouldn't be able to be destroyed at level 4... LEVEL 4. Do you understand HOW early that is for laning phase to end then? If you're a veteran player you would understand why it's so weird for towers to crumble like this and end laning phase this early.

This ain't Call of Duty, we don't need 15 minute games thank you very much.

Mig89Oct 13, 201711 votes

I dont have 15 minute games that often but I dont see how 4 champs freely beating on a tower (even at level 4) shouldnt be able to bring one down. You can argue that bot tower should have the same fortification as mid and top but that just brings back lane swaps and noone liked those. Damage has been creeping up for a while now but it doesnt change the fact that the enemy team was there in force. Ive only been playing for three years but I cant remember there ever being a point where you go 4v2 and dont get a tower if you secure the kills.

Not xPekeOct 13, 201710 votes

There was a point where you couldn't get a tower at LEVEL 4 with literally just enough time for the dead player to spawn and walk back to lane. And yes, I do argue that bot tower should have the same fortification.. this way these clusterfuck of party bot all early game would end instead of praying that you got the better bot and that they win lane or build ardent censor first.

And yea no one liked lane swap.. it was mainly a problem in LCS though. 90% of the playerbase didn't use lane swap tactics. That was a change purely for money and Esports. But it ended up affecting the average everyday player as you can see.

But anyway, what you don't get is that 4 champions (even at level 4) could be able to bring a tower down. Yeah okay, ideally. It's the time frame that is important though.. Literally, they take it down in the time it takes someone to walk back from base? That is objectively way too easy and way too fast.

Seriously, this never happened in the past in the manner that it happens now and how regularly it happens.

Games have been getting quicker and quicker, towers are also a main reason for this.

AGAIN I repeat: Do you understand how early it is for laning phase to end at level 4?! This isn't the same game we all started playing if all of this keeps going.

EDIT: I mean, people hated lane swaps but the meta now is literally, take bot tower as fast as possible, rotate your botlane to another tower, rinse and repeat. Just a delayed lane swap, with barely any laning phase since towers fall so easily.

Mig89Oct 13, 201710 votes

The time it takes a champ to revive is about 10-15 seconds at that level and the time it takes to walk down (im guessing as ive never timed it) is 20-30 seconds. If the tower is taking hits from 4 champions for a full minute, it deserves to go down. When your midlaner/jg/top see there are 4 bot they have some options: 1 Rotate to defend 2 Push their lane/another lane 3 Secure jg objectives 4 get deep vision (5) and the last "option" is not pay attention and just carry on which a lot of people who dont understand Macro do. Im not going to disagree that towers are a little weak but 4 people beating on it for a full minute should equate to a taken objective. Even at level 4 with no items thats each champion doing 50-100 damage per hit times 4 every second or two. If varus was in on multiple kills his passive could have been triggered while starting to hit the turret and that contributes a lot more damage as some of it is AP. I dont want to sit here and say towers arent weak but in this instance it was completely warranted that that tower fell.

Not xPekeOct 13, 20173 votes

Yeah man, I'm obviously not going to deny that are ways that you can work around it or trade somewhere else across the map. My issue is that we are forced in this playstyle and this playstyle aids snowballing way too much. Considering damage creep and considering how weak towers are, snowballing is too oppressive and the average game time is < 30 minutes. Towers are a great reason for this as well. Removal of lazers, the playstyle of getting early tower bot in most cases and rotate top or mid, rinse and repeat, is kinda lame.

And hey, you could be right and in this instance it's warranted. Thing is I've taken a botlane tower at level 3 as Twitch + Sona (I think it was a Sona). I don't have video evidence as it was quite a while ago but please believe me. I think we had 2 or 3 waves crashing into the enemy botlane tower. They were waiting for it to hit tower (we zoned them pretty hard). We poked them out before the wave crashed into tower. With all those minions and just 2 players, we destroyed the tower before they were even close to getting back. I understand that we probably deserved to take tower, we "outplayed" them in the first 1-3 levels but.. c'mon dude.. Ending laning phase at level 3 is not right. Warranted or not I personally don't think we should be able to make it happen.

I guess what I'm saying is that we should not be in the position for something like this to be warranted to happen.. The game, our damage, towers' strength, etc, shouldn't allow for this to happen.

ModPeriscopeOct 13, 20172 votes

So when should lane phase end? Because it sounds like a team decided when that was going to happen. For reference, the tower in the OP went down near 11 minutes. Both Ashe and ASol had 4 kills, Taric had a sightstone. Asol had built his first item, the Hextech GLP-800.

NineTailedMysticOct 14, 20173 votes

I liked 20 min laning phases, personally.

LazyW0lfOct 14, 20172 votes

Same here. Remember the goal of having like 90-100 cs by 10 mins? Now it's just a slugfest where everyone is fighting 24/7. Games are decided very quickly when things go south, comebacks are hard and most of the time not worth the effort, "late game" starts around 25-30 minutes, and teamfights last somewhere around 10 seconds. Damage is ridiculous and teamfights are basically blow all your cd's faster than the other team to win fights.

Slow and Strategic > Fast and Snowball

UpDownLeftRightABOct 14, 20172 votes

That game we all started playing is dead dude, this is Nu-League.

General Esdeath Oct 13, 20173 votes

How was the tower not able to kill any of them in a dive?

Mig89Oct 14, 20171 votes

Again, juggling turret aggro to get the kills is also a skill in this game

General Esdeath Oct 14, 20174 votes

Except among Varus, Sona, Rengar, and Sol none have the HP to survive the 3-4 shots at that level.

Flawless FetusOct 13, 20173 votes

I may be in the minority, and likely am biased bc I tend to play adc, but I like lane swaps wayyy more than gangbang bot. Lol.

QuephaOct 13, 20172 votes

The best game of League of Legends is and always will be Jungle Heimer. Nothing you say will ever convince me otherwise.

The Yetii RiderOct 13, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Not xPeke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NzGQJfnY,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-10-13T11:43:00.260+0000)

That's not even the point.

The point is that laning phase shouldn't end so abruptly and the so called "macro" play shouldn't be to just clusterfuck the botlane every single game.

Why not? If this is a strategy that works, why would people not use it?

There's nothing stopping people from five manning bot from the very beginning of the game and taking the squishy tower early for first turret gold. It's up to the enemy team to recognize that things have changed and adapt and respond. Riot is not required to enforce a specific method of gameplay for you. You as a player should be reacting to the enemy team's movements and decisions with your own movements and decisions.

In this situation, the best thing to do would be to have the top laner TP to a minion and the top laner, jungler and mid laner hard push mid while the four man is happening. Since you have no champions to kill, you probably get the turret faster even through Fortification (level 4 in bot lane is close to 5 minutes anyway which is when Fortification turns off). Even if you don't get first turret, you trade one turret for another and open up the map.

Not xPekeOct 13, 20172 votes

It's funny because Riot quite literally enforced a specific method of gameplay after they were unhappy lane swaps were making LCS games boring in the early game because of lack of interaction. I guess when money is involved they won't hesitate to impact the meta and gameplay themselves.

Ironically that change didn't improve the early game in Pro Play that much. They still play safe and aren't a fiesta like kids with short attention span would wish for. So that change actually only impacted the average everyday player by forcing players to focus on botlane and abuse the fact that botlane tower doesn't have the fortification buff anymore. Which also leads to take bot, snowball, end games in < 30 minutes. Which is a great difference considering the average game across all Elo's and across all Regions don't go over 30 minutes. This is a great difference to when games lasted on average 35-40 minutes - which was also indicated on the client itself when queueing up for Summoner's Rift: it used to indicate matches would/could last 30 or 40 minutes (or whatever it was). How times have changed.. <30 minutes x game now, with an average of 24 minutes in Challenger.

Don't get me wrong, I understand what you're saying, and I agree with you. There are ways to play around it or at least trade something else. Thing is that towers ARE too weak and should not be so easy to take down. Games are getting shorter and shorter. Damage is increasing, damage creep through season 5 and 6 have created many problems for balance and also to the game length's itself. Objectives like Baron and Elder Drake are laughable for how easy they are to take down - and so are towers.

The Yetii RiderOct 13, 20172 votes

Why should the PVE be difficult in a PVP game though?

I think objectives SHOULD fall easily, because they give players a chance to come from behind. If you're getting stomped and you make a great play and ace the enemy team you should be rewarded with some serious map pressure. If objectives don't need to be defended it puts way too much emphasis on winning the early game.

LuxannaVeritasOct 13, 20174 votes

This is a perfect response, bravo. [sg-ahri-2]

Whenever I see posts like above, I understand their frustration but I also think they're not seeing the big picture. What's so bad about a team gaining an advantage when they play well, or vice versa?

HonestJohnTheConOct 13, 201728 votes

The fact that you got four-manned doesn't really require balance changes. The only problem here is that turrets are made of tissue paper due to ADC's (the main pushing role) being strong, which is why many premades focus bottom lane, as it is strong right now. Meddler mentioned that they are looking into buffing/changing turrets but that it probably won't happen until after preseason (due to new runes and stuff)

DisembarkOct 13, 20173 votes

Especially Tristana. That bitch will take your tower so fast.

Devilreaper XIIIOct 13, 20175 votes

{quoted}

The fact that you got four-manned doesn't really require balance changes. The only problem here is that turrets are made of tissue paper due to ADC's (the main pushing role) being strong, which is why many premades focus bottom lane, as it is strong right now. Meddler mentioned that they are looking into buffing/changing turrets but that it probably won't happen until after preseason (due to new runes and stuff)

no its the other way around. towers were nerfed to the ground .-.

LexLutheran87Oct 13, 201714 votes

Your team got outplayed and did not respect the capabilities of the A Sol.

Bravo enemy for brilliant macro and initiative.

bbQsauçeOct 13, 201711 votes

[deleted]

Not xPekeOct 13, 20177 votes

Like I said to someone else.. that's not the point!

The point is that towers shouldn't be that weak for it to be taken at level 4.. Enough of this snowbally and fast paced game. This ain't Call of Duty.

Mig89Oct 13, 20178 votes

4 Champions with no resistance should be able to take a tower level 4..... that tower should not be able to 1v4 enemy champs....

Not xPekeOct 13, 20177 votes

They shouldn't be made of paper! They should not be taken down so quickly at level 4.

This never used to happen before all the damage creep and the change to bot towers that had their damage reduction removed to stop lane swapping in Pro Play.

Outmacro'd or not, towers should not be THAT weak to fall instantly and end laning phase at level 4. This ain't Call of Duty. We don't need such a fast paced game. MOBA's are not meant to end fast and swiftly. Do you know that the average time of a match in ALL regions is less than 30 minutes? With matches in Challenger averaging around 24 minutes per game. A huge difference to when the average Summoner's Rift game was 35-40 minutes. Towers' strength account for this change as well.

League has lost it's identity to conform to players with short attention span and the need for fast and flashy plays. Also influenced by Pro Play and the LCS viewers.

Blu3JayOct 13, 20173 votes

Can someone just agree with the guy?

I agree that 4 champions (at level 4 give or take) wailing on a tower for like 40 seconds to a minute should be able to take a tower.

I DON'T agree that towers should be made of paper. Especially botlane tower. IMO I feel its way to easy for bot lane to snowball out of control. Not to mention the fact this is a ardent cancer meta.

Games last shorter than they used to this is a FACT. The games pace changed dramatically as of patch 5.22.

Mig89Oct 13, 201711 votes

Dud you got outplayed on a Macro level. Dont blame the balance team. A combination of your team's failures led to it. Lack of vision Teammates not following up Teammates not pressuring mid if theyre not going to respond to the roam bot laners deciding to stay and try and defend while losing tower instead of just losing tower.

NineTailedMysticOct 14, 20172 votes

1 mid laner cannot "pressure" mid turret like the 4 man can. An AP mid with a big wave might be able to do half hp to a turret at level 4.

Mig89Oct 14, 20172 votes

Getting half a tower is better than nothing though. Shove the wave and go top with your jungler. Invade and take buffs. Secure scuttles. The boards is just full of macro play complaints that are mostly nonsense. People blame the balance teams for balancing with macro play in mind and say they're catering to the LCS all the time. Theres a way this game is meant to be played and the ones doing it wrong are low ELO

YennOct 13, 201711 votes

Most of these comments are dumb, wrong, and shows a lack of understanding of how the game works.

Everyone was level 4/5. Rift Herald has not spawned yet. Level 5 Lux cannot clear the wave quickly, let alone clear the wave and take the turret. There were no objectives that the other three players on my team could viably take that early. Vision control, also not possible; nobody has a Sightstone yet and trinket wards don't last long enough.

Also, what the fuck is this 'lol should have known Aurelion Sol was coming and recalled?' If we recall every time we think Aurelion Sol might be coming, we will literally never be in lane, because he clears faster than our Lux and goes missing on every wave. We would be recalling on every wave.

This situation was a complete unstoppable loss, with no way for us at bottom lane to react. Which would be fine; if the enemy team wants to 4-man bottom lane, they can do that, but the issue is that if towers aren't strong enough to defend against this that early, it should not snowball the game out of control.

Towers need to be made a defensible position in the early game, like they were in previous seasons. Playing safely needs to be a viable strategy when bottom lane turns into a clusterfuck prior to 8 minutes.

LimrickOct 13, 20172 votes

Plus even if you see it coming and recall, they still get first tower for free.

SamBunzlyOct 13, 20174 votes

A few key details that could change your perspective: Sona's passive does proc on tower. A proactive Sona with mana to spare would likely blow through spells to proc that q to chunk down the tower. Add Sol's free waveclear (the guy only needs to position while firing aa's at tower) and Rengar....

I'm going to assume one of two things happened here. Either Aurelion Sol and Rengar stole tower while you were respawning and going back to lane, or all 4 of them were hammering at your tower. In this case, you've gotta understand. Even before 5 minutes, 4 champs(generally) have enough waveclear and damage to push their minions on your tower constantly, therefore granting them uninhibited ability to take tower.

If its that big of a deal and becomes overly common in games ( I doubt it will ) then there could be another pre-5 buff to towers, granting them partial damage immunity if the tower doesn't have a champ near to defend. If there's 4 enemies on bot, then there would need to be 3 there to cancel this buff.(I'm bad at explaining it but it makes sense in my head)

Otherwise, You just got outplayed. You'd need to better sync with your team on this part. Restating previous advice given. Ashe should have scouted for Rengar, you should have maintained a minimum of 2 wards at all times, and top could have TP'd to bot.

What I'm trying to say is that this situation was balanced in terms of numbers. If they want to abandon their lanes and positions to dive early tower, then thats ok. Your team should counter by assaulting the empty towers and positions.

SoonshiLOct 13, 20173 votes

I did this solo once, with diana at lvl 3 with 32% attackspeed runes. Took it down to near 20% by the time the enemy returned. Turrets are way too fragile and if you leave em, you lose em.

OleandervineOct 13, 20173 votes

The balance team can't perform lobotomies on other players to make your game easier.

JorenciceOct 13, 20172 votes

How did you get dove with a taric.

Ive gotten triple kills from people diving me with blitz and im just a shit silver player.

That an easy 2-3 person stun while the tower destroys them.

Unless you mean dove as in.

"We were way overextended at 30% life with no wards #bufftowers"

XenomancersOct 13, 20175 votes

{quoted}

How did you get dove with a taric.

Ive gotten triple kills from people diving me with blitz and im just a shit silver player.

That an easy 2-3 person stun while the tower destroys them.

Unless you mean dove as in.

"We were way overextended at 30% life with no wards #bufftowers"

only shit players dive a blizz?

Not xPekeOct 13, 20178 votes

or maybe you gotten triple kills precisely because you're Silver and the players diving you don't know how to execute it properly because they're... Silver? lol

BabyNaixOct 13, 20172 votes

When they dive you in the bot lane, ask your team to get an objective on the other side of the map. Try to live for as long as possible to buy your team some time.

IncubusReaperXOct 13, 20179 votes

Correct, sure they can take objectives. However, OP says that it's at level 4/5 and rift has not spawned yet. It's clear to assume that -Top is fine, -Jungle must be far from bot, -Mid can just probably push in lane and get a couple autos on tower but not take it down since it's level 4/5 with a Lux mid. -Dragon is off the chart since 4 are bot and have claimed 2 kills with tower making dragon free.

*Not to mention, if jungler was near top the only thing he could do was gank top or make an appearance top or help mid take down tower, but I doubt they would still be able to take it down.

But thats not what the issue is about. He wants, "Towers need to be made a defensible position in the early game..."; Which I agree.

LimrickOct 13, 20175 votes

Yeah, but you still lose the trade, say jungle and top kill enemy top and steal some jungle, and get a little turret damage. That's like best case at level 4/5. Then on the other side, the enemy gets 2 kills, first tower, entire botside jungle, including dragon, and can easily rotate mid and force their lead down their throats.

It's a lose-lose situation for the Ashe Taric.

QuephaOct 13, 20172 votes

the fact that, outside of pro games, taking a tower that early isn't really that good. Your mid laner should have been able to beat A Sol to 6 off of that play and murdalize him when he returned to lane, and if your jungler was topside he could have ganked for free.

AirKingNeoOct 13, 20172 votes

When people ask me why I think Fortification needs to be readded to bot turrets and increased to 7 minutes.

Fix lane swaps in competitive with a non-bandaid fix if you are afraid of that.

LexLutheran87Oct 13, 20171 votes

You are also under estimating Sona, her damage aura spread across four teammates is a big boost of damage to an undefended turret even at lvl 4, not to mention her empowered autos.

BârdOct 13, 20176 votes

Sona's onhit damage aura doesn't apply to towers.

It hasn't granted AD in years.

She's still good at pushing, though. Staccato chunks.