MF still useless and there is still no reason to pick her.

Hard to argue with you there.

That's the reason you say MF is weak. She deals A LOT of damage due to her Q which hurts quite a lot and her W passive, which stacks. People don't understand that her ult deals massive damage.

Exactly, I wouldnt mind lossing a lot of the weird shit she has if that means giving her an identity. You want MF to be a bully/roamer? well get rid of all the she she doesnt need to do that and focus on making her bully/roam strong and reliable.

That momment when Jinx is considered a lane bully....

Miss Fortune is my ADC to go so that my imply that I played her. So what? People do mistakes a lot, punish them. Ever thought that maybe that's maybe the way they want you to play Miss Fortune? Also, it's quite tricky to hit that Q, but that's not what we're talking about. Miss Fortune is a lane bully which punishes the mistakes of her enemies a lot, denying them farm and making early game impossible for them, denying their power scaling. That's how you should see it.

[{quoted}](name=Tails Doll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NpX5EOY2,comment-id=0002000000010001,timestamp=2015-09-07T07:14:24.070+0000)

Have you played MF? Do you know how much her Q relies on enemy mistakes and not on your own skill?

This man obviously doesn't play billiards, or he'd know just how easy it is to work the angles.

Incoming from a plat MF main who's got over a 65% winrate on her:

[{quoted}](name=Tails Doll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NpX5EOY2,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-07T08:23:41.377+0000)

When behind, she is useless because she will lack the dmg that she would have if she were ahead. Coming back as MF is hard and not rewarding, losing lane with MF means you lost game, losing game with Jinx/Kalista/Vayne/Ashe means they can either make up for it with better late game, or better utility, both of which MF is lack luster.

This is true, she does have a hard time if she falls too far behind. That being said, that's kinda the curse of being an ADC that isn't Ashe. MF actually has a pretty good time with catching up though, because of how quickly she can shove waves while still being able to roam the map with her team. Going to a lane and pressing R will kill whatever wave is built there in 2 seconds, and her bonus movespeed means it takes her less time to get there and back than any other champion. No, it's not the best way to use your ult, but it's a solid fallback pattern, and she actually doesn't have a hard time farming post-lane phase.

B) "she can poke extremely well due to her Q->Minion die-> Half of the health bar back"

Yes, her second Q hits like a truck, but against someone that knows what they are doing you wont hit enough to actually be useful. For you to hit that skill shot you need, Your positioning, Enemy positioning, Minion positioning, Minion HP. You can only directly control 1 of those 4, the other 3 you dont have enough control over to succefully use it repeatedly. Now this would be such a problem if this skill power wasnt located in the second Q. Think about, say Cait Q or Luc Q, they can poke, it's a decent poke but A) They need less factors ( Cait it's just her positioning and Enemy while Luc is those two plus minion so thats 1/2 for cait and 1/3 for luc) and B) It's a more flexible skill, it can be used as poke if you see fit, it can be used as wave clear, it can be used as passive proc in lucs case, etc.

Actually you can control 3 of the 4, assuming you're decent. You obviously have your positioning, and if you don't know how to do minion manipulation, you must never play top lane... as for minion HP, considering that caster minions require 1 AA + 1 Q to kill, it's extremely easy to use her Q effectively. Done correctly, you can actually keep enemy ADC's from being able to effectively CS (not the same as fully shutting them out of CS, but limiting their effectiveness which gives you CS advantage over time) if they are trying to avoid your crit-Q's.

C) "She is the perfect combination of a utility (since her E slows a lot) and high damage output ADC since her W passive is extremely strong"

No, Ashe is the perfect combination of utility and DMG. She has perma slow, huge poke, high range engage+ hard CC, scouting tool with her W and good DPS with her Q and passive (Also Kalista but Ashe is more balanced). MF has utility, and she has DMG, but she excels at either. The slow is barely noticeble and it has a cast time, which they forgot to remove after they nerfed its duration. Granted is an AoE slow, but it's about the size of Lux E, and at least hers deals more dmg. She HAS utility, but it's barely noticeble.

I agree that Ashe definitely has her beat on the utility scale (that's kinda her shtick), but damage is definitely in MF's favor (we are talking raw damage, not "I stunned you and now we race to the death", because it wouldn't be fair to give one marksman their best-case scenario over the other). She gets the same kind of bonus (only larger) that ashe gets from Ranger's Focus via impure shots, and gets the bonus damage sooner. Her attack speed steroid lasts longer, and is a higher percentage, plus her Q is lower CD than volley, and she has her slow damage to boot. Her numbers are just plain higher, so you really can't say that ashe deals more damage, because it's false.

D) "She deals quite A LOT more damage than the ones you mentioned."

Hardly think so. Her Q doesnt Crit, so she essentialy losses dmg by using that ability when build as a normal ADC. Jinx and Ashe have bigger range, and Jinx has crit rockets, so I dont see her doing more dmg than Jinx. Kalista has her rend and her W, she does less dmg than MF the fist 3 seconds of the fight, but after kalista gets a few stacks she will deal more dmg, but lets say it's a 50/50. And Vayne straigh up out dmg her.

Depends on the situation. Q doesn't crit, but its a short enough animation that unless you have a LOT of attackspeed it's going to flow between two attacks anyway, so that argument really doesn't hold as much water as one might think. You need about 2 attacks per second before the Q animation really staggers your DPS enough to hurt, and you're also forgetting that someone behind your main target just took a sizeable chunk of damage. You wouldn't say that sivir's ricochet doesn't up her damage, so I find it disingenuous to only account for MF's single-target damage on Q.

Ashe we've already discussed above.

Jinx definitely has more damage, especially safe damage at range, but she's not nearly as mobile as MF unless her passive triggers. You can't just keep looking at singular pieces of the champ and saying "ooh, but MF doesn't do as well HERE against THIS PERSON" without accounting for what she DOES do better than that person.

Kalista has her Rend, but that's going to take a while to counteract the fact that her AA's only do 90% damage while MF's start at 106% and scale up from there. Rend is a lot of damage, but so is a proper MF ult. (That being said, MF ult imo is more of a reverse-rend, rather than stacking up a bunch then using it, use it to get a bunch of free stacks and then enjoy ripping everyone apart with your AA's. Personal preference there though) Kalista is also limited by her short range, which makes her dangerous. She doesn't have anything other than her Q that has any real sort of range to it.

Vayne definitely deals more damage due to true damage, but damage is kinda vayne's big thing, so I can't really hold that against her.

E) "Also you can kite very well with her due to her passive, but also try to escape better than with Ashe"

No, she cant. You cant use a MS buff ability that gets lost after anything hits her and say "She can kite". Nope, sorry not how it works. Even melee champions can remove her passive by simply using Cutglass/BoTRK. Granted, she HAS the power to kite, as long as nothing hits her, but after that happens she is done. See reliability to understand why is this point problematic on her.

You may have missed the patchnotes, where her W started giving her passive back. I use the ability frequently to do just what you're saying I can't do, so uhm... hard to argue with results and tell me I'm not doing what I'm doing, I guess. That being said, what I would be quicker to argue about her passive is that it makes her nigh-immune to skillshots so long as it is up. That's a huge benefit in lane and in pre-teamfight poke scenarios, and is something I haven't seen you bring up. Lucian is probably the only person who comes close to being as good at skillshot dodgery (kalista's jumps are way too readable, sorry), though vayne can do okay as well.

I'll say this though, she IS fun to play, melting teams with your R feels awesome, getting a double with your Q feels awesome. But they rarely happen, you cant count on them, her strengths cant carry the weight of her weakness.

I'd love to agree with you, because buffs for Miss Fortune would make me happy, but I just don't see it. I have a better winrate with her than any other adc (save for draven on release, but that bro was op), and I really don't find the weaknesses you're talking about as being as crippling as you're saying they are. Mayhaps we just play differently, but from my experience on her, she feels really good to play.