ok adc mains, answer me this.

Critmaster Garen··25 votes·6,097 views

do you want to get to be a hypercarry at 4 and 5 items, or do you want to have game impact already with 2 items?

chose 1. you dont get both.

because most of the complaints when it comes to the class right now, is that they dont feel like they have any impact on the game until at least 3 items, as if this was some sort of surprise.

especially critical strike builds are multiplicative item builds that by design start out weak and ramp up to large dps the more ad, crit and attack speed items you stack, and the more their stats are multiplying each other. if youre stacking items that are intended to scale heavy into lategame, you cant expect to pop off early as soon as you have 2 of them. that was season 7, and probably one of the most garbage, unfun seasons this game ever had.

so what will it be? do you want to give up your lategame scaling as hypercarries, or do you want to have game agency early? make a decision, but when you do, live with the consequences and stop complaining.

83 Comments

D357R0Y3R10 votes

Mages get to do both tho? Irelia get to do both too Same with Jax Same with Akali Same with Camille Same with Kai'sa

???

The answer to your question is that "weak late game" or "weak early game" doesn't mean shit anymore anyone is strong in late game right now, nobody is stronger than someone else

Marksmen in theory are stronger than anyone else in late game except melee carries But since defense doesn't matter after like 20 min, everyone gets to deal so much damage in late game and one burst rotation can end a teamfight

so what's the point of marksmen having tons of DPS, if this DPS is matched by a single burst rotation? It doesn't matter

And then you get game duration which has become a joke not allowing Gangplank to scale anymore, dropping his win rate to 40%

And then you get the fact that nobody is weak in early game anymore except Nasus When before "weak early game" meant "you cannot approach a single minion" Now "weak early game" is "you just have no kill pressure"

Terrible thread that either ignored what's happening in preseason right now, or didn't have enough knowledge about current game

Critmaster Garen10 votes

{quoted}

Mages get to do both tho?

no they dont. health and resistances dunk on mages.

they can kill other squishies, but burst is generally still not strong enough to be target agnostic. they cant carry games on their own in the mid/lategame like dps classes can.

the same goes for most assassins.

Irelia get to do both too Same with Jax Same with Akali Same with Camille Same with Kai'sa

individual outliers that need to be dealt with. these champions are clearly overtuned and some of them need their early game tuned down to justify their mid/lategame carry potential. the fact that it hasnt happened already is actually pretty insane.

i understand that riot sucks at what theyre doing right now. theye pushing for shorter games and for some reason buff the early game of lategame scaling champions and make them entirely ridiculous, just so they still have some sort of place in 20 min games.

but adding adc to the list you threw at me there doesnt fix the problem. it just makes everything worse.

D357R0Y3R7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NoAX6zT8,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-11-27T14:16:21.498+0000)

no they dont. health and resistances dunk on mages

It doesn't. Any current mage that has low CD has a win rate curve that scales into late game https://i.gyazo.com/4030b48c45f955faf523eaf076fff0a8.png

here is an example, and if TF win rate drops at 40 min it's because currently the sample size of long games is too fucking low Same with Anivia Karthus Brand vladimir swain Orianna Syndra their utility is strong, and their damage is retarded even towards health or magic resistance you think that mr dunks mages? ROFL void staff pen got buffed in s8

you need to think again

they can kill other squishies, but burst is still not strong enough to be target agnostic.

it is

the same goes for most assassins.

assassins yes but i didn't talk about them

individual outliers that need to be dealt with.

you mean all modern designs? go ahead and fix them for Riot

Think again

Critmaster Garen6 votes

{quoted}

It doesn't. Any current mage has a win rate curve that scales into late game https://i.gyazo.com/4030b48c45f955faf523eaf076fff0a8.png

here is an example, and if TF win rate drops at 40 min it's because currently the sample size of long games is too fucking low

Any mage scales into late game their utility is strong, and their damage is retarded even towards health or magic resistance you think that mr dunks mages? ROFL void staff pen got buffed in s8

you need to think again

it is

assassins yes but i didn't talk about them

you mean all modern designs? go ahead and fix them for Riot

Think again

scaling through utility isnt the same as scaling as a carry.

and again adding marksmen to these "modern designs" who have completely out of whack power curves isnt going to fix shit.

if youd say that these champions need nerfs and their damage and ability to carry needs to be lowered especially early game, i agree. or they need the same treatment and keep their strong early while losing their scaling.

if youre saying, adc should be buffed to just as strong as them early and still scale into lategame aswell, then fuck that.

D357R0Y3R4 votes

if youre saying, adc should be buffed to just as strong as them early and still scale into lategame aswell, then fuck that.

No, i'm saying that you have no knowledge about how season 9 works We adc mains do not decide about what we will get Games should be longer but since they won't be longer, and everything is getting buffed to spike faster because riot decided so

We will get buffed to spike faster if you're not happy with it deal with Riot

Critmaster Garen5 votes

{quoted}

No, i'm saying that you have no knowledge about how season 9 works We adc mains do not decide about what we will get Games should be longer but since they won't be longer, and everything is getting buffed to spike faster because riot decided so

We will get buffed to spike faster if you're not happy with it deal with Riot

then why are still so many adc mains asking for buffs? ask for longer games instead?

comb through the forums. usually people who are asking not to buff adc and increase game times instead get downvoted pretty decisively.

if youre one of the few reasonable people who sees that there is a systematic problem with riots agenda to cut down game times, then good for you. but please realize youre in the minority here.

OmegaNITRO3 votes

Because shorter game times are not an issue so long as the champions that need time to scale have their power curves adjusted accordingly to match the shorter game times.

Everyone is mostly OK with a game not taking 40 minutes to be decided. What's not OK is leaving champions to still need 40 minutes to hit their spikes when the game is decided at 25.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

Because shorter game times are not an issue so long as the champions that need time to scale have their power curves adjusted accordingly to match the shorter game times.

Everyone is mostly OK with a game not taking 40 minutes to be decided. What's not OK is leaving champions to still need 40 minutes to hit their spikes when the game is decided at 25.

then what about the champions that dont scale into lategame?

theyre never relevant when lategame is 25 minutes and sooner. while lategame champions are relevant at early stages and are broken in the few games that run longer.

why would you ever pick any type of carry that is not a marksman?

DM For Rat Facts9 votes

I think people have issue with that ADCs are completely irrelevant until late game, and matches don't last that long anymore so they're basically always useless. However that's only for crit ADCs. This could be mitigated by changing crit items but honestly it's more of an issue with game pace and that role's identity.

Critmaster Garen13 votes

[{quoted}](name=DM For Rat Facts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NoAX6zT8,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-27T14:12:03.271+0000)

I think people have issue with that ADCs are completely irrelevant until late game, and matches don't last that long anymore so they're basically always useless. However that's only for crit ADCs. This could be mitigated by changing crit items but honestly it's more of an issue with game pace and that role's identity.

but this is exactly what im getting at.

are adc mains willing to trade their lategame entirely for a stronger early/midgame? im also talking more specifically about on-hit and citical strike focused carries that by design ramp up slowly into a very strong 4 to 5 item build.

OmegaNITRO8 votes

OR, just accelerate the ramp so it doesn't take so long to reach "late game" status and late game ADCs have a chance to carry before the game is over without having to massively overperform early game on a weak early game champion.

You discard this outright simply because you don't actually want these ADCs to be good at their "intended" role.

Scaling ADCs don't want to give up their time to shine in exchange for a different identity, they want their time to shine to actually come before the game is over.

So they can stay weak early. So long as they can reasonably expect to be able to hit their late game spikes before the game is already out of reach.

Master of Blight4 votes

I don't know how long you have been playing league but you have to understand that this is the first time riot has tried to accelerate the game and every other position has scene HUGE meta shifts in champion pools based on changes over the years but the adc role has mainly stayed the same with a few exceptions per year. For instance in 2017 there was a huge push for scaling adcs like tristana and kogmaw and the abusers of rageblade like varus. 2018 had the rise of jhinn, kaisa, and xayah. Actually at the end of 2018 u even saw sivir coming up in play as well. So scaling adcs have been in the meta and with stormrazor being a first buy on champions like Caitlyn, jhinn, draven, kaisa, jinx, quinn, and xayah can you honestly say that they don't have an early game?

For one I don't think adc mains have any right to complain when it comes to scaling I think its more of other positions are now competing on the carry position like jungle and top making it harder for the adc players to get there pats on the back every game. Learn to share the spotlight like all the other roles cause we all know when riot changes it up and makes adcs super strong with some busted item or rune we (as in other players on your team) will be more then glad to see you all pop off. Until then get use to the change in popular adcs that are strong In the meta and stop complaining.

Critmaster Garen6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Laughing irl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NoAX6zT8,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-27T18:42:49.789+0000)

I don't know how long you have been playing league but you have to understand that this is the first time riot has tried to accelerate the game

this is definitely not the first time. every change in the past 3 years cut the game shorter and shorter.

from baron buff promoting minions, to turret first blood (which snowballed the shit out of the game when it was introduced and regularly ended games by 15 minutes back then), to rift herald changes, to split pushing minions, to inner turret nerfs.

they did so much shit over the years that increased snoballing and decreased game times.

this is just the latest addition.

i still agree with you though.

ZaneShadow2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NoAX6zT8,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-11-27T14:13:54.475+0000)

but this is exactly what im getting at.

are adc mains willing to trade their lategame entirely for a stronger early/midgame? im also talking more specifically about on-hit and citical strike focused carries that by design ramp up slowly into a very strong 4 to 5 item build.

I think that perhaps adding in a few more early game markamen would be fine, ones that build similarly but drop off really hard. Then adc players would have more options.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Or at least reworking some marksmen into being clearly different, instead of homogenizing the whole class with generalists.

Hügö5 votes

That is the same thing we had when adc mains introduced "adc in 2k17 lul" shit. The result was a season full concentrated around them, not like previous seasons in which a good adc was needed too, but when you had a bad adc you directly lost a game and could surrender.

Nik Nikerson9 votes

You're setting up a false dichotomy. Late game adcs don't have to give up all their late game to be more relevant in the mid game. You could shift some of their late game power to the middle, without giving it all up.

Also, people need to stop treating late game like it's still 40+ minutes into a game. If the games only last 30 minutes on average, late game should start around 20 minutes. Spiking 5 to 10 minutes after a game ends means you aren't any sort of carry, you're just useless.

Moody P4 votes

yeah and then mid game champions like juggernauts cease to exist because they'll lose their lane early and by the time they're relevant the ADC has outscaled them

it's a terrible idea to keep accelerating game pace. you'll never fix the endless stream of crop-up issues

Mordepool7 votes

This thread is perfection

OneMustFall7 votes

I'm not on the whole lets increase ADC's strength in any way but they aren't a factor in this meta. The fact they're held to this higher standard of "Can only be hyper carries late game" is nonsense. Plenty of champs right now are dominating in all phases of the game. The focus should be on tuning down these champions rather than buffing ADCs though as we already have way too much damage in the game.

zoliking6 votes

So disappointed. I click on the thread, thinking, "Ooh, somebody has a question for me, I love saying opinions and informing people by answering questions, cool." And then it's a rethorical question attached to a lame rant of nonsense... People playing early game adc-s want early game impact. People playing late game hyper carry adc-s want to become late game hyper carries. Duh.

Critmaster Garen7 votes

{quoted}

So disappointed. I click on the thread, thinking, "Ooh, somebody has a question for me, I love saying opinions and informing people by answering questions, cool." And then it's a rethorical question attached to a lame rant of nonsense... People playing early game adc-s want early game impact. People playing late game hyper carry adc-s want to become late game hyper carries. Duh.

its not a rethorical question, but an actual question. there is no rant attached here.

if what youre saying is accurate, then why are so many adc mains complaining at the moment?

early game adc exist. lategame adc exist.

the most common complaint is mostly towards champions like Tristana Caitlyn Jinx Twitch and other critical strike carries to ramp up "too slowly". all these champions are falling into the second category, while lethality stacking carries like mf, and lucian fall into the first.

yet, there are a lot of requests to make these crit carries scale faster.

zoliking5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NoAX6zT8,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2018-11-27T14:46:14.768+0000)

its not a rethorical question, but an actual question. there is no rant attached here.

if what youre saying is accurate, then why are so many adc mains complaining at the moment?

early game adc exist. lategame adc exist.

the most common complaint is mostly towards champions like Tristana Caitlyn Jinx Twitch and other critical strike carries to ramp up "too slowly". all these champions are falling into the second category, while lethality stacking carries like mf, and lucian fall into the first.

yet, there are a lot of requests to make these crit carries scale faster.

Everybody is asking for every stupid thing that would make the game easier for them. "Nerf this champ I have trouble with!" "Buff my champ!" "Buff my role!" "Buff the item I use a lot!", "Nerf the items I hate on opponents!" are staple threads on the boards. People posting here are not game balance gurus, not even objectively interested in balance most of the time. There is nothing new about this.

OtterlyLost6 votes

Jax gets both so why cant ADCs have both? Hypocritical BS continues.

Critmaster Garen8 votes

{quoted}

Jax gets both so why cant ADCs have both? Hypocritical BS continues.

i already addressed this. there are a few outliers that need their power curves changed.

but the existence of a handful champions in a 120+ champion pool doesnt justify breaking an entire group of champions by giving them the same strength.

OtterlyLost5 votes

A few? Try multiple. Akali, jax, irelia, Darius, fiora, orianna, TF...

You know I literally heard SoloRenekton say he didnt feel like he could win early levels against a jax as renekton. The early game lane bully literally gets bullied out by shit like Jax.

But no, ADCs have to wait 40 minutes to be only half as gold as any of these champions. Their current late game does not even align with how terrible their early and midgames are. Their late game should be unmatched by anyone with how garbage their early is. But it isnt. Because shit like jax that gets to be a lane bully and late game power threat off just Trinity. I wish they'd got trinity already since its supposed to be an item for "late game" bruisers but it's making them absurd at 1 item.

Critmaster Garen5 votes

{quoted}

A few? Try multiple. Akali, jax, irelia, Darius, fiora, orianna, TF...

You know I literally heard SoloRenekton say he didnt feel like he could win early levels against a jax as renekton. The early game lane bully literally gets bullied out by shit like Jax.

But no, ADCs have to wait 40 minutes to be only half as gold as any of these champions. Their current late game does not even align with how terrible their early and midgames are. Their late game should be unmatched by anyone with how garbage their early is. But it isnt. Because shit like jax that gets to be a lane bully and late game power threat off just Trinity. I wish they'd got trinity already since its supposed to be an item for "late game" bruisers but it's making them absurd at 1 item.

its still only a few champions compared to the entire pool. you dont fix a few overtuned or broken champions by breaking more champions. thats just going to end up breaking the game.

and jax vs. renekton is very specific. i think jax can win by using his e to negate renektons w, which is like 90% of renektons power in trades. yes, jax is too strong early aswell, but we need champions like that tuned down, not break even more champions in response.

i dont see the problem with fiora and darius by the way. especially darius peaks mid game and falls off later. both of these champions teamfighting is ass because its so easy to kite melee champions with a few displacements.

there isnt a single marksman whos as bad at teamfighting.

Speeedy8 votes

how do you play around not being able to do damage, in a damage based class, for 30 minutes? By the time you are relevant to the game its already decided if you won or lost by everyone else

Critmaster Garen5 votes

would you look at that, most of these problem champions will receive nerfs

Viktor (top focus) Irelia Aatrox Akali Jax Camille Leblanc

this almost the entire list that was mentioned here.

OmegaNITRO6 votes

Typical. Are you demanding this standard from every other class in the game? Do the scaling ADCs win 1v5 if a game lasts longer than 30 minutes?

No, of course not.

If mages, bruisers, assassins etc. were equally helpless vs ADCs at 4 items as most ADCs are at 1 item you may have a point, but that isn't the case, and when it is, YOU complain.

So miss me with that bullshit.

BestPudgeNA3 votes

{quoted}

Typical. Are you demanding this standard from every other class in the game? Do the scaling ADCs win 1v5 if a game lasts longer than 30 minutes?

No, of course not.

If mages, bruisers, assassins etc. were equally helpless vs ADCs at 4 items as most ADCs are at 1 item you may have a point, but that isn't the case, and when it is, YOU complain.

So miss me with that bullshit.

He has a point regardless because you're not skill shot or CD gated like other roles. You point and click for 600 range.

OmegaNITRO4 votes

Your point has exactly nothing to do with his point, or mine, so no.

There are plenty of early and late game champions in every role that have point and click damage, low CDs, or gap closers to compensate for lower range, on top of things that ADCs don't have, so you thinking ranged autoattackers are less "gated" is no justification for them not being able to reliably hit their powerspikes.

BestPudgeNA3 votes

{quoted}

Your point has exactly nothing to do with his point, or mine, so no.

There are plenty of early and late game champions in every role that have point and click damage, low CDs, or gap closers to compensate for lower range, on top of things that ADCs don't have, so you thinking ranged autoattackers are less "gated" is no justification for them not being able to reliably hit their powerspikes.

There isn't a single ranged champ in the entire game that starts strong and scales well

Gap closers don't compensate for the ranged advantage when you gap close you're still at a ranged disadvantage if a team has multiple ranged threats.

You're just full of shit man. You ignore all the advantages ADCs have state only the disadvantages and go but it's not fair my class isn't as good as other carries in the areas your class is disadvantaged. Then state that somehow if you kept your advantages but lost your disadvantages your class would somehow be balanced, but the truth is you would be strictly better.

Zardo4 votes

There isn't a single ranged champ in the entire game that starts strong and scales well

Orianna Azir Xerath Brand Cassiopeia Kayle Swain Zyra

Speeedy4 votes

id like to be a late game super carry, but id also like a way to get there. Unless you get fed on kills you are nothing more than a glorified cannon minion all game till 4 items plus boots. For how squishy adc actually is I think they should be pumping out way more damage than they are. Crit builds have been in the dumpster for months and need some sort of change because changing stormrazer over and over again hasn't helped.

Critmaster Garen8 votes

{quoted}

id like to be a late game super carry, but id also like a way to get there.

the way to get there is by accepting that your early game is garbage and play around that weakness, just like it is for Nasus

why do they need more damage when they can already shred any opponent theyre facing, given enough items?

Moody P4 votes

yeah but nasus sucks too

Speeedy5 votes

let me rephrase what I mean by more damage they need to scale more appropriately to the game length. Right now crit adc is like a 35 min for full build, but game times are less than 25 min on average. I don't think buff/nerf champs is the way to go but to buff the gold cost of items by making them cheaper is a better option.

Dr Dog4 votes

nasus has a good mid game and a godly late game, not comparable to crit adcs being nonexistent till 40 mins

Critmaster Garen5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NoAX6zT8,comment-id=000400000002,timestamp=2018-11-27T16:10:07.863+0000)

nasus has a good mid game and a godly late game, not comparable to crit adcs being nonexistent till 40 mins

crit adc have the same godly lategame, if you just look at their raw damage and carry potential.

if you include how easy it is to shut either of them down via kiting or assassins, then marksmen still win. a marksman can be saved from burst.

only one single support in the game can prevent nasus from getting knocked out of a fight, and thats morgana with black shield.

Dr Dog4 votes

no matter how good you are late, if your absolutely useless for the first 40 mins of the game thats a huge problem, and currently with the support meta bot theres not much saving its tanks mages and engagers almost anyone in a match can burst an ad and a lot of the time that isnt preventable with all the mobility along with low cds due to every item that isnt an adc item having 10-20% cdr

Critmaster Garen6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Dog,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NoAX6zT8,comment-id=00040000000200000000,timestamp=2018-11-27T16:34:23.260+0000)

no matter how good you are late, if your absolutely useless for the first 40 mins of the game thats a huge problem, and currently with the support meta bot theres not much saving its tanks mages and engagers almost anyone in a match can burst an ad and a lot of the time that isnt preventable with all the mobility along with low cds due to every item that isnt an adc item having 10-20% cdr

hyperbole. it doesnt take 40 minutes to get 3 items, where adc start to become noticable.

especially not while 160 gold bounties on turret plating exists.

Dr Dog4 votes

with infinitys price along with boots in there it takes quite awhile to get keeping in mind if your playing a crit adc your almost 100% gonna lose lane getting at most probably 1 or two plates most likely split three ways between you your support and your jg, so lets say you get that spike around 25 mins usually, your at 60% crit chance with a free first hit crit and very minimal true dmg per crit. at those three items you have no sustain of your own, no resistances and still meh dmg with 0 burst potential, if your support is shit or cant peel your dead, if you leave your support for a split second your dead, if you get hit with so much as one spell your probably gonna get heavily chunked with no way to get any of tha hp back or cced and die pretty much on the spot, all you have at that 3 items is decent dps and your build is funneled at that point, your almost 100% gonna get a merc and and armor pen item so you dont do peanut dmg to anyone slightly tanky and you dont die the first time you get cced. thats what playing a crit adc is like, having no say in how the game goes till 40 mins or so in where the game most likely wont be lasting till its garbage and its not healthy, take about 20 or so games and try to play only adcs you named and it'll be obvious to you why exaxctly crit adcs are dogshit

Spicy Rice4 votes

If I can get pd, ie, + boots by 20 mins as yasuo, then so can adcs.

Moody P2 votes

nasus is dog shit late game

hi ìm groot4 votes

Quality post from a level 12 account named Garen. I feel like this could be a hashinshin smurf post.

Ravenhale5 votes

Critmaster Garen has been here forever. Older than May 2015 when I joined.

Thorn Fierce Red3 votes

True Hypercarries:Jinx Twitch Vayne Lucian KogMaw Tristana Kalista Kaisa Jhin

Linna Excel2 votes

Isn't lucian supposed to be an early game lane bully?

Marian Cross3 votes

So, I like were you are with this. A Kog on just rageblade should not be able to kill a triforce user in like 4 autos. My issue lies were damage is too high for these carries to work. if you take def runes and build to survive you don't end up doing the damage that you need to. If you go ham and build almost full damage then damage wise your fine, but even the tanks one shot you.

I truly think that the game is not fit for adc's at the moment(except a select few). The pacing in the game is just so far out of wack. In the past the game was lane phase>mid game>late game Now the game goes lane phase>mid game/baron dance>end This puts adc's(crit adc's the most) in a spot were the games all end before they can do much so came the being of StormRazer so that way they can spike and be useful at one item. However this is not how those carries were made to work so it's wack and throws adc's to this weird state that they are in now.

Just my thoughts on adc's as a adc main. would love to see SR removed, but without a late game in the game we would all just go back to mages bot.....

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