Petition to make changes on damage redirection

Glamorous Rammus··2 votes·398 views

Rammus item 3076 item 3075

Petition to change the condition "basic attacks" to "physical damage".

I think we should allow damage redirection apply to ALL physical damage instead of just basic attacks.

For one thing, it makes sense thematically, considering most physical damage abilities utilize the champion's weapon there's no thematic difference between these abilities and basic attacks. Here's a few examples of abilities that don't apply "thorns" despite being a form of attack:

Garen Garen's E causes him to spin around and damage enemies with his sword. His sword hits- that should proc "thorns". Kayn Pretty much Kayn's entire kit uses his weapon to strike the target, but abilities do not proc "thorns". Darius Same as Kayn- and even more important due to his Passive. Darius stacks from his abilities are the same essential problem against Thornmail that caused Thornmail to be reworked. Except instead of Lifesteal you just bleed all over the place when he slams 5 stacks in 2 seconds.

Another key reason "thorns" should apply to all physical damage is the utility. Champions with physical damage abilities can simply abuse abilities to gain their Attack Damage bonuses without the pain of "thorns". A great example of this abuse would be a Rammus W versus Garen E. Rammus W is weakened by Garen's E, and without any consequence to Garen. I understand Garen has his own issues- but that's not what I'm here to talk about. I also understand, as a Rammus main, that Garen should counter Rammus- again that's not the point I'm trying to make. Garen's E does such little physical damage that the small amount of damage he would take from "thorns" is negligible- but it would give him some consequence to use such a hard Armor counter. Thornmail is rendered to shreds with the combination of TBC and Garen's E- let it stay that way- but also allow the Thornmail to punish ALL physical damage and we got some counter-ability.

7 Comments

Glamorous Rammus1 votes

No Garen or Darius mains please. [slayer-jinx-wink]

Vapor Wave Vibes1 votes

Nah that's dumb. For abilities like talon's w, zeds q, zed w+e, fiora w and etc this wouldn't make sense. Really since you've only named characters in melee, no ranged champion like caityln should ever proc thornmail or have any return dmg apply to them. This would just be a crazy and unneeded buff to tanks.

Glamorous Rammus1 votes

I disagree. I only named a very few champions because listing all of them would be insane. Your example of Caitlyn not procing thorns doesn't apply because her basic attacks do. She's ranged and shooting Thornmail causes the redirection of damage. Zed's Q would fall into the same category, and his E especially would. I'm unfamiliar with Talon's button commands, but I would say all his abilities should also apply. And as far as Fiora- do you main her or something? Because Fiora's W should most definitely proc thorns using that puny rapier.

Vapor Wave Vibes1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glamorous Rammus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NiKq6Q5U,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-01-07T00:09:47.476+0000)

I disagree. I only named a very few champions because listing all of them would be insane. Your example of Caitlyn not procing thorns doesn't apply because her basic attacks do. She's ranged and shooting Thornmail causes the redirection of damage. Zed's Q would fall into the same category, and his E especially would. I'm unfamiliar with Talon's button commands, but I would say all his abilities should also apply. And as far as Fiora- do you main her or something? Because Fiora's W should most definitely proc thorns using that puny rapier. Your first reason was thematic logic. Doesn't make sense for ranged opponents to proc it then. Your second reason would just make thornmail and rammus an even bigger counter to physical dmg dealers when they already counter.

Glamorous Rammus1 votes

You're right. But my examples were for 3 champions only. This was my mistake for not realizing how alike these 3 champs are. However- if Ashe uses her bow to attack Rammus, she takes damage. If Ashe uses her bow to W rammus with 5 arrows nothing happens.

Thematically, even ranged champs should be affected.

You should also realize that this would help some champions counter Rammus. Because as it is all AP damage on basic attacks applies to the "thorns". If "thorns" only punished physical damage, these champions would gain a nice cushion. item 3091

Critmaster Garen1 votes

garen doesnt have in combat sustain like auto attacking champions who can pick up lifesteal to compensate for the damage return. his lvl 16 spin deals damage in 10 separate spin ticks over the course of 3 seconds. this would add up to 200 to 300 damage from thornmail alone on a spin.

for darius it practically makes no difference if his q triggers thornmail or not. his w already procs the passive, which cuts his q sustain. he also wants to auto attack to get bleed stacks on you. so it is already an effective item against him without adding 20 to 30 magic damage every 3 seconds for hitting you with a q.

but most importantly, neither of the champions is too strong or deserves a nerf right now. why would this change be neccessary?

Critmaster Garen1 votes

by the way, if thornmail would return physical damage in general, then i want Garen spin to apply on hit effects. the same logic applies. he hits you with his sword, so why would there be a reason not to get 10 bork procs on you?

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