honestly, just remove the true damage from kayles level 16 and then make her early better

Critmaster Garen·Mar 9, 2019·101 votes·20,725 views

lvl 16 already rewards her by making her permanently exhalted.

just actually balance the champion by cutting uneccessary power from her lategame so you can make her not hot garbage before lvl 11 without making her automatically broken.

because otherwise the same thing will happen that weve seen with a bunch of other lategame carries. you just overtune her in an attempt to make her not feel like shit to play for 15 minutes.

135 Comments

MoonscourgeMar 9, 201924 votes

Agreed. She can simply do a lot of on-hit damage instead. Maybe increase her ratio once at 16 instead of converting to true damage. I've yet to get a game where I reach level 16 because I am so weak I can't stop anybody from just ending the game before lol

ChaosReynMar 9, 20198 votes

I've noticed a lot of the more effective kayle games I've seen she's been jungle. Mind you, she's super weak to invades...but the like 3 times I've had a jungle Kayle, we pubstomped as long as we responded to her being invaded on pre 6.

Chembaron YamadaMar 9, 20195 votes

Well, it got stated by a Rioter that if Kayle shows up in the jungle, they will do something to remove her from there.

CytheGuyMar 9, 20196 votes

I guess Riot doesn't like it when we try to make her more bearable to play early game, where she still has counterplay.

"Oh hey I noticed all these other Kayles who are picking her before get stomped on in lanes because literally anyone can bully her. Maybe I should play her Jungle, where I can be more safe from forced fights?"

"Riot here, we don't like original playstyles. Gtfo of the jungle, which she could be used in effectively pre-rework and we did absolutely nothing about it."

Chembaron YamadaMar 9, 20199 votes

It depends. They don't generally have something against original playstyles. But if a playstyle gets invented to remove the weakness of a champion, yeah, they don't like that.

Kayle gets a godlike late game, the trade off is supposed to be bullied in the early game. If Kayle starts to jungle, then the primary reason for that will be to hide from PvP situations until she reaches her god mode. Which is something they don't want for any jungler, actually. They made alot of changes to the jungle to promote ganking and jungler vs jungler situations (like scuttle).

They dislike the idea that players use the jungle just as a PvE game mode until they reach their unstoppable powerspike, which is understandable in my opinion.

Flawless FetusMar 9, 20192 votes

I guess. Similar to laning, though, it's up to her opponent to stomp her. If the enemy jungle goes hunting for kayle she will get stomped.

CytheGuyMar 9, 20191 votes

Which is exactly my point, she can still get destroyed as a jg if the enemy team knows how to ward and look around. I just want to play her jg to circumvent her weaknesses in low elo to climb because people don't do either of those things, and when I get into games where people do know how to do those things I can be more skill-expressive by still winning and playing well against people hunting me down.

Tomoe GozenMar 9, 20192 votes

But you're here actually looking for a way to circumvent a weakness of a champion because you find it hard to "play" and having to work around it instead. I understand the situation fully and sympathize that Kayle is a bit too weak early that she can literally get bullied everywhere she goes by any champion but i doubt Riot's actually going to change her kit unless it's about the number adjustments.

I think that her number adjustments alone would be fine, she doesn't need her kit changed in any other way. It can be at the expense of her already hard scaling super late game as well. Her weakness doesn't need to be so generalized that any matchup that can either effectively duel in melee range or play a ranged game, can essentially make it impossible to her to walk up to minions and CS, except with her Q and E.

Get RekkktMar 10, 20192 votes

because champs come out perfect numbers wise on release right? theyve never made a broken ability and reverted it?

plz tell me more about the logic you are using

ΗuaweiMar 10, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomoe Gozen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NgKWp7rY,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-09T20:33:14.977+0000)

But you're here actually looking for a way to circumvent a weakness of a champion because you find it hard to "play" and having to work around it instead. I understand the situation fully and sympathize that Kayle is a bit too weak early that she can literally get bullied everywhere she goes by any champion but i doubt Riot's actually going to change her kit unless it's about the number adjustments.

I think that her number adjustments alone would be fine, she doesn't need her kit changed in any other way. It can be at the expense of her already hard scaling super late game as well. Her weakness doesn't need to be so generalized that any matchup that can either effectively duel in melee range or play a ranged game, can essentially make it impossible to her to walk up to minions and CS, except with her Q and E.

Its not fun to play a champion for 3 minutes while you struggle hard the other 25 mins.

And so far, i got to lvl 16 in only 1 or 2 out of many games i played so you might not even get to play late at this rate at all.

Flawless FetusMar 10, 20193 votes

I mean isn't the point behind everything to circumvent their weaknesses? Why do Anivia/Kass stack mana? In order to get around their weakness. It seems everything we do in game is either to further our strengths or circumvent our weaknesses.

Tomoe GozenMar 10, 20191 votes

And you're leaving one crucial thing out: SCALING.

They scale their mana over the course of the game, with items that take time to scale to their actual stats. They can buy flat mana but even that isn't enough as their abilities consume large amounts of it. This is still their weakness since their abilities can consume their large mana pools if not properly controlled, but it's more or less not an immediate issue to overspend in longer battles.

What part of Kayle's kit isn't following the same paradigm? She scales into a permanently ranged champion, that actually hurts a lot in the late game. What Riot doesn't want to happen is that they intentionally create a champion's lane weakness whereas players just say "i'm just gonna go jungle instead". It defeats the purpose of the said weakness.

If she SCALES into the late game, she has to start with a weaker early game. The big reason i think Kayle is considered weak is because her milestones are 6, 11, 16. These levels are nothing more than gates through which she attains her power as a champion, and often feel like plateaus until the next gate, than level by level scaling.

For the first 5 levels, Kayle has to work through worse early game than what she has had before (now melee). As soon as she hits 6, she can become range "on demand" IF she stacks per passive fully. So somewhat her old power level, that wasn't that great to begin with. The next 5 levels feel exactly the same when it comes to her trading as many champions get to their "ideal" stats and leveled abilities to be able to fight others.

Kayle on the other hand, still has to still until level 11 so that she gets this opportunity and praying that your opponent isn't ahead by a large margin for you to feel like you can contribute to teamfights or even win some 1v1s.

#TL:DR

I don't mind Kayle's scaling into the late game but i think that 6, 11, 16 milestones and large 5 level plateaus in between are the reason why Kayle feels weak. The power isn't evenly distributed in the first 10 levels, from 11+ is where her actual kit power spikes lie. Also keep in mind that Guinsoo's isn't her item anymore. Her waves aren't being duplicated by its passive.

Flawless FetusMar 10, 20191 votes

Jungling doesn't even by pass her early weaknesses or allow for a faster leveling. She's so susceptible to getting invaded. Her clear is slow. Junglers are notoriously underleveled currently. She scales well, but it's not _amazing _ she's about the same threat late as any other scaling champ. Jax is a scaling champ who starts one shorting at 6 and has an aoe stun with semi - invulnerability that he can aa during. Kass comes online at level 6 and becomes a large threat. Kayle doesn't come online until 11 and doesn't really feel like she spikes at 16. That's a high level in this meta, especially for a jungler.

Tomoe GozenMar 11, 20191 votes

But Kayle isn't a jungler. She wasn't made to be one. So transitioning her into a lane that doesn't require her to duel her opponents and instead focus on taking down jungle mobs, defeats the purpose of her lane weakness. I tried her on PBE in the jungle and i know she's slow. But that doesn't mean that if she is susceptible to invades, that the enemy jungler is practically going to live in it while your team does nothing to punish them.

Jungling does remove her lane weakness even if she isn't a particularly strong jungler. And i've said this before but the problem i think players are having is that Kayle's level growth is only on levels 6, 11, 16, whereas in between the 5 level gaps, she plateaus. Kayle is by no means a weak champion as her late game is monstrously effective. But that doesn't mean you have to slog through a grueling 15+ minute CS fest to rush to level 11+ just so that the game can finally start for her.

Her power distribution is predominantly on level 11+, less so on early levels which leads people to believe that she's weak. I think that if Riot shifts some of her late game power into the early game, it might be more beneficial than just buffing her. She doesn't need buffs, in my opinion.

Flawless FetusMar 11, 20191 votes

Lol. Your arguments are all over the place. "she wasn't intended to be a jungle" might be a fair argument, but riot likes to pretend they don't enforce the meta. Jungling removes her lane weakness and introduces her jungle weakness, which is arguably worse. In no way does jungling circumvent her early game. We've yet to talk about buffing kayle. Since you brought it up she might need a little love. Considering that her late game is nothing amazing, I'm not sure if it should be a power shift or a straight early game buff. Regardless. Her jungling is fine and it would be silly of riot to try to prevent her from doing so.

Tomoe GozenMar 11, 20191 votes

If her jungling ends up being a better option than her laning, expect nerfs. Riot does like to keep a champion's options open but if that means one champion switching lanes and doing better in their off position, that's a no-no.

Or they might try and buff her laning a bit, without attempting to also buff her jungling.

CherysseMar 11, 20191 votes

Weird, I guess they changed their opinion, because the last time I checked they created Feral Flare and said "we want champions to PVE and then go out in god mode" not kidding.

Chembaron YamadaMar 11, 20191 votes

Yeah, it's weird, it seems Riot changes their design philosophies on a weekly basis, tbh.

I remember that we got told that Kayn does not get an evolving icon for the map when he transforms in either Shadow Assassin or Rhaast, because of clarity reasons, they don't want to confuse people with a changing icon.

Now we got the Kayle rework and she got an evolving icon with significant changes, like one icon showing her with her helmet and another one without.

Riot seems to have a hard time to get their design philosophies straight and stick to them.

kingDeDeDariusMar 11, 20191 votes

She does fine against Shen xD granted, the Shen I faced managed to make some ult ganks and get kills and get teammates some kills, but I just farmed up in his absence, and was fairly safe farming even when he was there. Needless to say, I pub stomped after lvl 11

General Esdeath Mar 9, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Snake of Avarice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NgKWp7rY,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-09T02:25:47.742+0000)

Agreed. She can simply do a lot of on-hit damage instead. Maybe increase her ratio once at 16 instead of converting to true damage. I've yet to get a game where I reach level 16 because I am so weak I can't stop anybody from just ending the game before lol

She seems like she'd only be good against a team like Aatrox Skarner Kaisa Ezreal TahmKench

JarringMar 9, 201919 votes

yeah, i honestly wish they would... giving her true damage at 16 is like a participation trophy. It's totally unnecessary.

Darknesshas1Mar 9, 20192 votes

not really, If your fighting a darius or Rammus who just have 3k hp and the tankiness of a panzer, Kayle will rip through them like a chainsaw

3TWarriorMar 9, 20194 votes

"tankiness of a panzer" "rip through them like a chainsaw"

choose one XD

Wizard BlazeMar 9, 20195 votes

huh they added true damage to her kit? whats with Rito and their boner to true damage there is enough damage in this game that is killing it slowly like cancer.

PrinceOfStormsMar 9, 20192 votes

basically all her attacks do true damage once she hits 16.

RagnaveilMar 9, 20192 votes

The wave does, not her attacks.

Wild GeeseMar 9, 20194 votes

Make her a ranged champion who starts with 325 range. Level 6, 11, 16 +75 range

Get rid of the true damage conversion.

Fixed!

MonstermushmushMar 9, 20193 votes

I said the EXACT same thing yesterday. Got downvoted for some reason...

Critmaster GarenMar 9, 20196 votes

{quoted}

I said the EXACT same thing yesterday. Got downvoted for some reason...

someone mentioned the option of making her e refund cooldown on minion kills.

if they removed the true damage from her lvl 16 passive, this would imo give her a decent chance at an early game, since she can more often grab minions from a distance, without making this better early game guarantee a broken lategame.

fair trade imo.

at the same time it wouldnt make her too opressive against melee champions, like the idea to make 3 auto attacks on her e ranged. if they did that, then electrocute or pta would just make her a bitch to deal with in lane since shed poke the hell out of you.

JarringMar 9, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NgKWp7rY,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-03-09T03:04:58.989+0000)

someone mentioned the option of making her e refund cooldown on minion kills.

if they removed the true damage from her lvl 16 passive, this would imo give her a decent chance at an early game, since she can more often grab minions from a distance, without making this better early game guarantee a broken lategame.

fair trade imo.

at the same time it wouldnt make her too opressive against melee champions, like the idea to make 3 auto attacks on her e ranged. if they did that, then electrocute or pta would just make her a bitch to deal with in lane since shed poke the hell out of you.

I brought it up, but I'd rather she have charges. it's a little too big of a spell for it to be a complete refund. I mean she'd be able to clear entire waves with it and get a full c/d/mana refund?

not to mention, what if u were able to hit enemy champions in the aoe? what about pets like malz?

The aoe portion of the skill would be a problem.. if it didn't have the aoe thing, it'd be a lot easier to balance..

Probably just need to take that part off while they rethink the E..

Critmaster GarenMar 9, 20192 votes

{quoted}

I brought it up, but I'd rather she have charges. it's a little too big of a spell for it to be a complete refund. I mean she'd be able to clear entire waves with it and get a full c/d/mana refund?

not to mention, what if u were able to hit enemy champions in the aoe? what about pets like malz?

The aoe portion of the skill would be a problem.. if it didn't have the aoe thing, it'd be a lot easier to balance..

Probably just need to take that part off while they rethink the E..

dont give her a mana refund. just the cd refund. this should fix the problem of her clearing entire waves with it.

at the same time it would still have a large impact on her early game. shed get a lot more minions from safe positions.

mack9112Mar 9, 20193 votes

She is a true late game carry you can have her the way she is or they can make her into a jax

Critmaster GarenMar 9, 201920 votes

{quoted}

She is a true late game carry you can have her the way she is or they can make her into a jax

you can also not make her a "true lategame carry" and just a regular mid and lategame carry by cutting lategame power from her and then give her a lane phase that doesnt feel like youre shoving rusty needles into your eyeballs.

otherwise shes going to be condemned to an existence as a garbage tier champion, because lategame doesnt happen in 80% of the games, especially not when you feed like shit early on because youre not a real champion until 15 minutes.

if we dont do this, then you can bet your ass that riot is just going to buff her early game at some point and we end up with an atrocity like Vayne

mack9112Mar 9, 20194 votes

If riot continues to release late game oriented champions then they will have to slowly defIne late game as it’s own entity and not just an extension of mid game. Through that we could see an increase in game times that most people probably won’t object to.

Kayles rework is riots first attempt at such a champion.

GlaricionMar 9, 20194 votes

Kayle's rework is Riot's first attempt at such a champion.

You seem to be stating that she's Riot's first attempt at making hypercarries, but they've made a few of them before.

(Poppy, Kass, Vayne, Tristana?, Twitch, Kog'maw...)

LTK KoRoMar 9, 20193 votes

poppy got reworked, and all of these outside of Kass spike muuuch earlier than they should now. New Kayle is a first attempt to make hypercarries like they should have been made. Let's be honest. Hypercarries like Vayne or Tristana who spike with 2 items are total bullshit, and there's no way to end a game before they get two item (unless they're ridiculously bad players)

MatthevvMar 11, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Through that we could see an increase in game times that most people probably won’t object to.

Are you insane? Games of LoL last far too long as it is. Nobody wants LoL matches to take even longer than they already do. Have you ever seen pro matches from when LoL matches would last longer? Pros would stall out basically every match to 90+ minutes. That shit sucked ass.

I basically quit LoL after the 2014 season and now I mostly just play Rocket League. The biggest reason for me to quit LoL for RL is that RL has 5 minute matches compared to LoL's 30+ min matches. I could have 3 matches of RL played by the time laning phase ends in LoL. I can make insane rank progress in RL in a single afternoon. Spending an entire afternoon playing LoL would net me 3 matches.

mack9112Mar 11, 20191 votes

I don’t think you get an opinion in this if you basically quit the game 5 years ago.

MatthevvMar 11, 20191 votes

Ad-hominem is your defense? ROFL

Good to know that I won that debate since you have no real rebuttal.

mack9112Mar 11, 20191 votes

How can I debate something with you that you know nothing about. If you even spent a spec of time on these boards you would know a good part of the community wants to see an increase in game time.

I’m not going to hop into a rocket league discussion about the micro balances that exist in that game because I barely play it.

I don’t understand how you can think that you can win an argument about a topic you basically gave up 5 years ago and why you are even here trying to discuss it.

MatthevvMar 13, 20191 votes

{quoted} If you even spent a spec of time on these boards you would know a good part of the community wants to see an increase in game time.

ROFL Did your school never teach you what a bias is? You must be a product of murican education if you seriously just tried to use that as an argument. I had been on these boards since before they were boards, since season 1. I know full well that the people who come and post on these boards are a very niche group of people and not even close to representative of the playerbase at large.

I don’t understand how you can think that you can win an argument about a topic you basically gave up 5 years ago and why you are even here trying to discuss it.

I gave up 5 years ago because Riot turned the game into shit. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to play again if Riot would fix their shitty mistakes. Mobility creep and overloaded kits infest this game now and we got nerds on the boards acting like long game times is what the general playerbase wants.

mack9112Mar 13, 20191 votes

Your absolutely right that is why I make sure to visit the various league discussion boards that exist to make sure the i have a correct understanding of the overall community.

You still sit there and act like you understand anythIng about a game you haven’t played for 5 years and the game was more balanced in a time that Leblanc had a silence.

Absolutely astounding

MatthevvMar 17, 20191 votes

Typical murican. No matter how many discussion boards you visit you will not see a representative sample of the LoL playerbase. People who browse any boards at all are the minority and a niche group.

mack9112Mar 17, 20191 votes

if every discussion group is saying the same thing then it is a good indication that the general playerbase will share that view. On top of that how else do you get the opinion of the players.

I’m Canadian... lol

MatthevvMar 23, 20191 votes

Did you not take philosophy in high school? Because you certainly don't know how to do critical thinking. You also clearly have no clue how bias works rofl. Maybe you should have taken a data analytics elective.

mack9112Mar 23, 20191 votes

So what raw data would you use to support your view.

SõnaMar 9, 20193 votes

In my personal opinion, I think all of the late game carry should be designed in that way. However, tons of "late game" champions tend to do so much better lately, bruiser fighters etc which also makes Kayle now herself looks bad.

Critmaster GarenMar 9, 201910 votes

{quoted}

In my personal opinion, I think all of the late game carry should be designed in that way.

why? this concept is obviously not working. not just for kayle. it doesnt work for any of the lategame marksmen.

to make them balanced you have to make their early game trash, which means theyre rarely ever relevant, which leads to huge complaining, riot buffing these champions and the same champions being overtuned as fuck because now they have a good early game and a godlike mid to late.