The major difference between DPS and Burst is almost non-existent at this point.

LegitBacon66·Dec 12, 2016·144 votes·7,817 views

You have your standard burst mages/assassins, but since damage is THROUGH the roof items like on ADCs just makes them even more bursty on top of double crit yasuo with . It is almost like a race who can kill faster at this point. There is no real DPS/Sustained damage by anyone is league anymore. It is just spammy burst and fast killing. That is why when a fighter/bruiser builds They are literally unkillable because they get just enough tankiness to survive burst and do it themselves later. Assassins and burst mages are supposed to destroy the back line. Not marksmen. Marksmen are the sustained DPS to break frontliners and keep sustained damage for the team if the burst is dead. Honestly, the entire itemization of league of legends needs to be reworked to remove burst on champions that DON'T need burst at all.

165 Comments

dominusxDec 12, 201652 votes

Twitch item 3085 item 3046 item 3031 item 3035 item 3006 what do you mean i should not kill a team in 3seconds 30mins into the game? i mean its deep late game 30mins into the game right? KAppA. What do you mean my Kha'zix died as soon as he touched the ground to kill the enemy adc? What do you mean the enemy adc gets a 700hp shield INSTANTLY because support items are a tad bit stupid atm? i mean every champ in the game can do 2.3 k dmg instantly to kill an adc through its shields before the adc kill the other champ in 2seconds with 4 750dmg crits

CresmontDec 12, 20168 votes

you forgot the dmg reduction from knights vow and the 2 redemption heals your team should probably have

Jerry SeinfeIdDec 12, 201621 votes

to be fair he is classified as an assassin too.

doombotMECHADec 12, 20163 votes

teamfight aoe wombo has always been twitch's thing, it's just that with new support itemization he's unstoppable

Dan AbnormalDec 13, 20162 votes

nah its just that all the lane bullies suck right now so he doesnt get destroyed in lane like he used to

MelledoneusDec 13, 20162 votes

Caitlyn Not quite all of them.

Spaceman5pffDec 12, 20168 votes

To be fair, making supports and their items overloaded as fuck is the only way to generate sufficient interest in the role.

Look at Overwatch, the supports in that game are BUSTED. They have incredibly powerful ultimates AND utility spells and several of them can keep pace with DPS heros in the damage department.

Even then, there is still a less than desirable amount of interest in the support role, but it is better than in LoL.

dominusxDec 13, 20162 votes

ik that's why i dont nag about the role. never did except fuckn braum screw that champ.

Spaceman5pffDec 13, 20162 votes

Lol I feel ya, we all have our kryptonite.

Mine is Jhin

Doesn't matter how fed I am, or how weak he is. That fucker will always kill me.

BastionKrossDec 12, 201635 votes

Masteries unbalanced the cart. Keystones, specifically. They added tons of damage, for free, to nearly everyone. On top of that, the one tree that's supposed to defend against damage is the weakest, with it's best and brightest ability only being useful to champs with hard CC.

Riot seems to have finally recognized this, and so they took a chunk of damage out of the game in the form of blue buff no longer giving AP and Rylais (a nearly universal item for anyone building AP) losing some kick. A result is that nearly all AP champs had their damage cut back some.

Now all Riot has to do is take some damage from AD champions, and we might see games where everyone doesn't evaporate if they get looked at the wrong way.

DeusVultDec 12, 201613 votes

Riot taking damage away from AD champs...

-5 AD nerfs across the board to the sounds of ADCs laughter as they are the untouchable class

agbudarDec 12, 201615 votes

{quoted} the entire itemization of league of legends needs to be reworked to remove burst on champions that SHOULD NOT burst at all.

today truth has been spoken

small polish to your last sentence.

AstôlfoDec 12, 20169 votes

There's two types of people in this world.

People who realize this is true.

And people who are ignorant or in denial.

PennsDec 12, 20168 votes

Depends, I think an adc killing me as assassin with 2-4 crits is a problem. But if its about adcs being able to kill tanks, which is what they should do, its not a problem.

dominusxDec 12, 20164 votes

you cant build pure assasin'y anymore you die before you even close up on people. Was watching a stream last night a Kha one trick he jumped onto cait in the middle lane she WAS isolated his Q auto passive dropped her to 30% she just E him auto auto auto he died just like that.

RalanrDec 12, 201614 votes

IMO I feel crits hurt squishies more than they do tanks. ADCs are meant to kill tanks with sustained damage, but crit just makes all that sustained damage become burst.

Crit is however the only reason ADCs are a late game class.

RebonackDec 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

IMO I feel crits hurt squishies more than they do tanks. ADCs are meant to kill tanks with sustained damage, but crit just makes all that sustained damage become burst.

Crit is however the only reason ADCs are a late game class.

Could fix this by making crits ignore a percentage of the target's armor instead of doubling damage.

Ravenous HowlsDec 12, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Could fix this by making crits ignore a percentage of the target's armor instead of doubling damage.

We already have Mortal Reminder or LDR for that... Do we really need to make melee tanks feel any worse?

RavenMagusDec 12, 20162 votes

They could remove them and have crits take their place as the anti armor item.

In the end though ADCs do need to have good end game damage against high armor tanks, or tanks will become unstoppable because no one else can kill them. It's already really hard for most mages to kill a tank that has even one dedicated MR item (plus all the extra HP they'd get from building armor items like sunfire and randuins).

CremepieDec 12, 20165 votes

Imo Crit needs to be removed from ADC Items and replaced with physical current %HP damage. Crit should only be on an assassin or a weird bursty champ like Tryndamere or Fiora

Ofc im no game designer and im sure there would be massive problems at first.

RalanrDec 12, 20164 votes

Idk, I don't want more %health damage.

deadlychuckDec 12, 20169 votes

I've got to admit, that it's pretty bullshit that riot has never addressed how power creep affects this interaction.

There's a couple of important cut offs which have never been addressed by riot, when it comes to power creep on gameplay.

Burst champions (assassins, mages, some fighters): break the 100-0 barrier, easier. This means that it takes fewer items in your build to kill someone in a single rotation of skills, allowing for more defensive items to be purchases without losing the ability to assassinate a target.

Burst damage on DPS mages: Mages which are intended to do damage over time, and lack combo burst damage start to see the 1 or 2 skills they have for burst, function as enough burst. AurelionSol Azir Zyra to name a few.

DPS turning into Burst damage: Mostly when it comes to AD in this case, because AD isn't gated in the same way abilities are. When the limiting factor of abilities being able to 100-0 targets isn't their numbers, but rather the rate which they can be input, then what you see is that continued power creep only works to close the gap between the DPS damage, and burst damage. If DPS takes 2.5 seconds to kill a target, with almost none of that time being limited by input lag. Then a burst combo takes 1.0 seconds to kill a target, with about .5 of that time being input lag. Increasing everyone's effective damage by 100% would reduce the time to kill of the DPS to 1.25, but the burst combo's only to .75. A difference of 1.5sec => 0.5sec .

It Hertz When IPDec 12, 20168 votes

The problem is that if I'm playing an ADC that does reliable sustained DPS, I'm never going to get time to deal it because some burst-er is going to jump me. I can't duel for the same reason. So I'm forced to hang at the backline taking potshots until enough of the enemy are dead that I can take an objective.

agbudarDec 12, 201610 votes

this is why you need a tank meta so that there are enough champions around to peel for you when a mage or assasin tries to jump you.

tanks should be counters to assasins (so they need to be viable regardless) juggernauts or initiators should be counters to mages (so they need to be viable) mages and assasins should be able to burst a squishy, but not at the cost of tanks dying to them as well. adc ofc should have the best dps in the game but not with burst and crit makes this impossible to achieve at this point.

so the 3 basic rock paper scissors should be

tank/peel/crowd controll ( wardens tanks enchanters should all be under this catagory

burst. (mages, assasins and to an extend juggernauts fall under this)

dps. (carries, skirmishers, dps mages)

Blkninjar87Dec 12, 20167 votes

After playing dota2 I notice one key difference with most the ADCs in this game.... They can spam skills damn near indefinitely. Mana has no meaning in this game pass level 6, an adc in this game can spam their "poke" skills which have ad modifiers on them and do decent "burst" damage then proceed to walk into range and spam pellets of hell. Let's not even get into the cdr items for adc. Overall this game claims ADCs are right click warriors, but they truly aren't. This game puts way to much emphasis on making every champion skillshot based. The problem is that every skills not has to be extra rewarding cause the chance of missing is high, but when u manage to hit 90% of ur zappers, or Caitlyn q's. Not only are you a right click nightmare, but effectively an ad version of a mage as well.

Meep ManDec 12, 20165 votes

Yeah, Dota 2 is much more limiting with mana since most heroes only get about 30 or so mana per level and all mana regen items are NOT good on Carries unless they are specifically ABOUT being an Intellect Carry.

Jesus is SaviorDec 13, 20164 votes

{quoted}

This game puts way to much emphasis on making every champion skillshot based.

I'm actually running out of champions to play because Riot keeps reworking non-skillshot champions into skillshot champions, and I don't like skillshots.

Hauling AsheDec 12, 20166 votes

Ashe What is this burst DPS you're talking about? I'd like to get in on that deal.

Restless SlumberDec 12, 20163 votes

I mean the best type of damage in a moba will always be burst damage. If you can reliably kill someone fast then you are going to be more likely to win a fight. Having DPS is only good if it comes in a bursty form, thus all of the champions that are retarded late game have both DPS and burst such as Ryze Vayne Viktor Anivia Cassiopeia Twitch Yasuo Orianna Kennen etc. Champs that are only DPS are much less useful due to them needing to stick onto a champion to be able to deal the majority of their damage, which is why top laners are sent to split push because of how hard it is for them to reliably stick in a fight to do their damage when most team comps can simply peel them off.

LegitBacon66Dec 12, 20166 votes

Most of those champions except vanye, twitch, and yasuo are supposed to be bursty champions, their whole class is designed for burst. Vayne and twitch are marksman.

Also, champions like Draven Corki Graves Jhin Jinx Tristana do incredibly high damage in seconds. They burst down champions which is probably not the marksmen class is intended for.

Assassins and burst mages are supposed to destroy the back line. Not marksmen. Marksmen are the sustained DPS to break frontliners and keep sustained damage for the team if the burst is dead.

CresmontDec 12, 20161 votes

all those champions you named are speficic niches draven is meant to have insane dmg corki is a mgc dmg burst adc graves cant even be called a marksman anymore jhin is a sniper, every shot hurts but he has limited shots jinx doesnt have ¨burst¨ (im well aware 3 rocket crits can kill you but its not techincally burst) trist is quite literally the burst adc -_-

Spaceman5pffDec 12, 20165 votes

Vayne item 3031 item 3087 you said burst ADC?

QuinnovaDec 12, 20165 votes

so you just proved him right? even if they are specific niches they are still marksman that burst lol

Fenikkusu1Dec 12, 20167 votes

"But muh dmgs, and muh mehonix, and muh LC$BIGPLAY$" Rito 2k16

DengedenDec 12, 20163 votes

Of course. Without burst this is how it would go down:

Jinx Excuse me fine sir and madam, would you kindly let me get off like 10 AAs off? Caitlyn Nooooooooooo? Jinx Rats! Another day of ADCs that need perma CC to do anything!

The notion that marksman don't have a DPS based playstyle at all is, of course, absurd. It's easily disproved by playing one game of SR and keeping tabs on how the ADCs do damage. But DPS without burst is basically useless.

StephenizgodDec 12, 201611 votes

I believe that is where the Support comes in, they aren't there to make you look pretty, they make the plays or stop the plays from being made. They are and should be the difference in bot lane.

Your job as an ADC should be to sit there laying down DPS, taking turrets and other objectives. Not to insta-burst an entire team in like 2 seconds, that is the Mages job.

DengedenDec 12, 20164 votes

They do make the difference bot lane. If you honestly think the bot lane isn't all about DPS, you're far too removed from reality.

But after the laning phase ends, there should be some burst to back up DPS. Otherwise, the scenarios where you can just item 3140 summoner 1 and walk away before the ADC kills you will be too numerous.

StephenizgodDec 12, 20164 votes

thats why i said they are the difference.

Bot lane is about DPS, it shouldn't be about Burst DPS such as 3 shot critting someone.

No ADC's shouldn't have burst at all.

Thats the point, you are suppose to be able to deal with their damage. Mages and Assassins are suppose to burst.

DengedenDec 12, 20161 votes

And I've explained why they need burst. Every champion's role is intentionally muddy. Everyone can do a bit of everything because Riot doesn't want hard counters in the game.

StephenizgodDec 12, 20165 votes

They don't need burst, they just have it.

If the didn't intentionally muddy the roles, there wouldn't be such insanely broken builds like Bruiser Yasuo and ADC's abusing tank/bruiser items.

They need to be put in line with their roles goal, for an ADC that is laying down DPS in a teamfight and taking objectives. It is not to instantly wipe out anyone who comes near you and it is not to wipe out an entire team from 1000 range away... Mages and ADC's need to have different forms of damage or else you get Twitch melting an entire team in less than 2 seconds or Vayne 2-3 shot killing literally anything that steps in range of her.

DengedenDec 13, 20161 votes

I don't see such instances as a problem. Not only because you can play Dota but because the alternatives would be worse. (Not to mention there's counterplay to the rare instances of Twitch and Vayne doing that, it's 550 range, not 1k)

The instances of ADCs being completely ineffectual because the enemy team won't just stand there or the case of losing every 1v1 no matter what are just two of them. You can't just drastically change an aspect of the game and not expect it to turn into a hellhole.

OtacustesDec 13, 20163 votes

Who are they going to lose the 1v1 to?

Against mages/assassins they should, mages burst you faster than you can DPS them.
Against bruisers/fighters they should, they can either burst/DPS you before you can get through their sustain or tankiness.
Against tanks they shouldn't, they have the damage to whittle them down and lifesteal.
Against supports they shouldn't, they lack either tank or damage stats and should have no business 1v1'ing anyone unless super fed.

ADCs should be completely reliant on their team to do their job. That's why they get very little CC to peel for themselves and build full damage items. Cases of "the enemy team won't just stand there" is the lack of either a frontline or consistent CC on your team.

They are basically a turret, there to do consistent high damage output (without being straight up burst with crits) to support the rest of their team.

DengedenDec 13, 20161 votes

They shouldn't if they get off their damage for long enough. If they dodge some stuff or get the drop on them, they should be rewarded.

ADC is already blatantly team reliant. Supports win or lose the laning phase for the ADCs while they farm. But again, not solely team-reliant. Because you can play Dota. If you want that.

OtacustesDec 13, 20161 votes

You can't "get the drop on someone" if you're dealing DPS. If you have a huge chunk of burst that can instantly or nearly-instantly win you the fight, that's a different story. If you're an ADC that will kill a tank in 10 seconds, you're going to kill them in 10 seconds whether or not you 'get the drop on them'.

ADC is already blatantly team reliant. Supports win or lose the laning phase for the ADCs while they farm.

Excuse me? That's the entirety of Dota's carry lane in a nutshell. You farm up as a carry while your support(s) zone out the solo/duo lane and pull camps to deny them XP. I don't play Dota because I feel that it's clunkier and isn't as fun at my skill level. Just because Dota exists doesn't mean League is shit and making sure roles actually do what they're supposed to is heresy.

DengedenDec 13, 20161 votes

Correct. Which is why pure DPS is stupid. You should be able to punish champions for overextending.

Oh? Well LoL and Dota are similar in that regard then. Only with more poke. And again, I'm fairly certain that Dota's ADCs really are DPS-based, while LoL's ADCs (just like the rest of the roster) have a bit of everything.

OtacustesDec 13, 20162 votes

Pure DPS is not stupid. DPS is what wins team fights. If you want to kill people in 1v1s, play a slayer/bruiser/fighter.

Also, why are you commenting on Dota vs LoL if you clearly don't know the general basis for both games? The "go play X competitor's game if you want Y" is a pretty stupid argument if you don't know anything about X competitor's game.

DengedenDec 14, 20161 votes

Shrug, I know the key difference between LoL and Dota is that there are no hard counters in LoL. And I figured that was because each champion had distinct weaknesses that they couldn't overcome. Which is what people here are asking for.

Pure DPS would be useless as all get out. It would be far too easy to back out after you notice you're losing the fight. EDIT: I mean, seriously, there isn'T a single ADC who doesn't have a burst/execute combo. Why do you think that is?

DengedenDec 19, 20162 votes

Aite, cheers!

MelledoneusDec 13, 20161 votes

Isn't burst Jhin's thing, though?

The Ginger NingaDec 13, 20163 votes

It's a weird case of burst, in the way that it is something that has to be worked towards. Jihn's burstiest attack is his 4th auto and that requires a build up to it before nuke someone.