marksmen still have the best cdr item in the game

Critmaster Garen·Dec 8, 2015·39 votes·3,410 views

at least cap essence reavers cdr bonus from crit at 10% instead of 20% ffs. there is no reason auto attack carries have the best caster item in the game.

why do marksmen get to be auto attack carries and casters with 2 items? increasing the crit reqirement to 30% will do absolutely nothing, when most of their items already provide the same amount of crit.

with the old essence reaver, marksmen who scaled with cdr were forced to make a choice towards a cdr/caster focused build and get cdr from other sources, while sacrificing crit and attack speed.

it was one of the most cost effectve items in the game, and strong enough on varus to make him popular in pro play. the one only real problem was that people who built it had to wait until the whole item was finished to get the stats they actually wanted. the combination of 10% cdr and mana sustain on top of ad and lifesteal.

no one asked you to change essence reaver into this abomination. all people asked for was a smoother build path.

71 Comments

NiyumiDec 8, 20156 votes

Honestly though, outside of AD caster carries, what marksmen really does a whole lot with CDR?

Critmaster GarenDec 8, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Honestly though, outside of AD caster carries, what marksmen really does a whole lot with CDR?

youre kidding right?

even if the spells dont provide damage, they usually have a ton of utility attached to them. look at jinx kit alone. the ult, the q poke, the mines.

the same for cait.

even goddamn vayne who has only 3 active abilities with a 30% cooldown on condemn, her ult and tumble. it largely improves her ability to kite.

its too much. a single adc item shouldnt ever provide more than 10% cdr, so theyre foced to sacrifice crit or attack speed to be able to have their spells on a short cooldown.

is there even a single champ in the game who doesnt make good use of cdr? the problem is that marksmen can comfortably build 30% cdr into their standart auto attack build. there is no drawback to doing it.

SpecterVonBarenDec 8, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NbozxBAW,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-12-08T03:58:23.727+0000)

is there even a single champ in the game who doesnt make good use of cdr?

Rumble Yasuo

(Seriously, It's hilarious just how much Yasuo doesn't change in URF mode)

Critmaster GarenDec 8, 20157 votes

{quoted}

(Seriously, It's hilarious just how much Yasuo doesn't change in URF mode)

youre right with yasuo.

i absolutely disagree with rumble. even with his overheating mechanic, being able to spam his abilities more often to overheat faster (something you actually want in a trade due to the empowered abilities and auto attack damage) and get his ult available more often is still useful.

and its still just 2 champs out of the entire pool. neither of them are marksmen.

[{quoted}](name=Quinn of Yuri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NbozxBAW,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2015-12-08T06:45:25.523+0000)

Then you realize the two items with the highest AS on them in the game happen to have AP on them .

both shit for mages except azir. rageblade specifically being only useful on attack speed fighters and some marksmen, being designed as a carry item.

especially rageblade means a mage would be sacrificing an item slot for a ap/cdr/mana/magic pen item, to one dedicated to attack speed. you know. what marksmen should be forced to do when they want to go for cdr. sacrifice other stats in their build.

essence reaver is the equivalent of giving mages an ap/cdr item with cdr and crit, that causes 40% of their ap to be applied to auto attacks, allows that damage to crit and gives them critical strike for building cdr, and return mana for crits.

the thing is, even if you would give mages a bunch of items with attack speed, ap and cdr, they would still have weaker auto attacks than marksmen due to them not being able to crit.

SpecterVonBarenDec 8, 20152 votes

Don't get me wrong, I know that a little bit of CDR can be great on Rumble, (He's one of my mages that the lack of an early CDR mastery has really hurt for me) but a lot of CDR on Rumble is counterproductive.

Also, might want to reply to Quinn of Yuri again.

Dar RaksadaDec 8, 20152 votes

{quoted}

(Seriously, It's hilarious just how much Yasuo doesn't change in URF mode)

his windwall is pretty sweet in urf, considering the uptime will basically equal the cd.

EcchiOtakuTMDec 8, 20151 votes

Cait, jinx, trist, ashe, draven, kalista, twitch and vayne don't need it period. Champs who rely more on AAs don't have a need to get it at all since it takes away from getting IE+Zeal early.

Essence reaver is just for very select ADCs

KarKzzDec 8, 20152 votes

Nope, they don't need it , but the difference between 0% cdr and 40% cdr is HUGE.

Cait trap and net is now on a 6 sec cooldown. Ashe volley is 2,4, ultimate is 58 second. Vayne tumble is 1,2 second (!)

It also totaly remove their mana-gating.

EcchiOtakuTMDec 9, 20151 votes

Only ashe I would say if she wanted to go more utility for teamfights, but vayne def no, and cait with it is just a gimmick.

SquidblimpDec 9, 20151 votes

If Vayne gets Essence Reaver, she's doing something wrong. If she isn't getting that early attack speed, she's missing out on a ton of damage.

NekusenDec 8, 20156 votes

You silly, of course marksmen need the best CDR, they are autoattack based.

TraxinatorDec 8, 20155 votes

By that logic, mages should easily be able to get a lot of attack speed from building more AP since they are spell based.

SpecterVonBarenDec 8, 20152 votes

Psssst! That's the JOKE!

Phoenix Kotori Dec 8, 20158 votes

Then you realize the two items with the highest AS on them in the game happen to have AP on them item 3124 item 3115 .

Hayaishi2Dec 8, 20154 votes

i fail to see the problem.

Vayne, Trist and Jinx still see more play than most AD casters.

Critmaster GarenDec 8, 20156 votes

{quoted}

i fail to see the problem.

Vayne, Trist and Jinx still see more play than most AD casters.

im talking about actual caster champions Zed Talon Pantheon

and not carries who are able to build into a caster focused build. Lucian Varus

marksmen right now have literally better caster itemization than champions like pantheon or talon. or, heck better than most mages. they get to have strong ability scaling and auto attacks in one build, while every other type of champion in the game is forced to go down 1 specific route.

if Zed builds item 3153 to have better auto attacks, he sacrifices ability damage.

what are marksmen sacrificing for picking up the new essence reaver?

Phoenix Kotori Dec 8, 20152 votes

item 3031 sure you can argue you could build both, but that's insanely expensive.

So it's trading auto damage for more ability usage.

ThePartyLeaderDec 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NbozxBAW,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-12-08T03:15:45.193+0000)

im talking about actual caster champions

and not carries who are able to build into a caster focused build.

marksmen right now have literally better caster itemization than champions like pantheon or talon. or, heck better than most mages. they get to have strong ability scaling and auto attacks in one build, while every other type of champion in the game is forced to go down 1 specific route.

if builds to have better auto attacks, he sacrifices ability damage.

what are marksmen sacrificing for picking up the new essence reaver?

I'm lost. I checked champion.Gg to see if I was crazy. Zed, pantheon, and talon don't even build essence reaver. Soo what are we mad about.

Mages or casters scale off of flat damage, penetration, and CDR. You can't just give them free CDR. Marksmen you can since there abilities aren't the core damage of there kit. You seem like you want ludins echo to give Leblanc max cooldown after she builds a needlessly large rod.

ProfDrDeathDec 8, 20154 votes

Yes, Essence Reaver as an item is a really good option for CdR right now. And its intended users are Marks(wo)men/ADCs, the class of champions that are brought to teams for their high sustained damage.

However, look what reduced cooldowns primarily do for its intended users. Cooldown reduction is a tool to increase the frequency with which abilities can be used.

For an ADC, reduced cooldowns directly play into their strength - to bring sustained damage. The spells of the ADCs that build ER are, first and foremost, used as damage tools, with a bit of secondary utility added. On the other hand, look who does not build ER of the ADCs - Jinx Ashe and Kalista , all of which have spells with long range and significant utility, but rely on their auto-attacks too much to not go for the increased auto damage item 3031 provides. Ashe in particular is worth mentioning here - her Q was changed in the ADC update, with the (intended?) side effect of making ER less useful for her.

And that is exactly the point of ER in the new ADC itemization: It offers a diverting path between increasing DPS through auto-attacks ( item 3031 and abilities ( item 3508 ).

On other classes, reduced cooldowns have a way broader scope of effects than just increasing DPS. A specific point to add here is that, despite getting reduced cooldowns, ADCs are still required to get and stay close to their targets to deal their damage, opening them up for a counter-attack. Even Ezreal and Corki, the longest-range of the ER users, are still required to get close to do more than poke damage.

Contrast that with what CdR means on a long-ranged spellcaster like Xerath or Ziggs. Reduced cooldowns for those guys mean that they throw out their rotations with a higher frequency, while staying at a safe distance.

EDIT:

Another thing: Magic damage dealers intended for sustained damage don't need much, if any, CdR, or are/were rewarded for building the stat.

Karthus : His two main sustained damage tools do not benefit from CdR much. One already has a 1 second CD, while the other is a toggle. Cassiopeia : CdR in kit. Ryze : CdR in kit. Azir : Used to be rewarded with extra AS for building CdR. This made him spike too early, for which it was changed. However, he still does not rely on CdR as much for his sustained damage, but on AS.

RisenDarkKnightDec 8, 20153 votes

Actually, Karthus's q benefits the most from cooldown reduction. Going from a 1 second cooldown to a .55 second cooldown means many, many more q casts, which is a lot better for dps than only build ap/mpen. Low cooldown abilities benefit much more from cdr than high cooldown ones because you can often only cast high cd abilities once per fight regardless of cdr, but low cooldown abilities are pretty much guarenteed multiple casts.

I'm not saying that cdr is important on karthus (most meta builds for him ignore cdr and focus on survivablity/big ult damage), but it is the best stat for his q dps.

ProfDrDeathDec 8, 20152 votes

If Karthus was just about Q spam, I'd agree with you - but then, we'd also see a lot more CdR being built on him.

The fact that his stronger builds don't put as much focus on CdR tells me that he is not restricted by CdR in his effectiveness. Possibly, because of Q's casting time requiring him to stand still, he needs the time between cooldowns to reposition in the fight.

MilfHuntUnitXJ9Dec 8, 20153 votes

with the old essence reaver, marksmen who scaled with cdr were forced to make a choice towards a cdr/caster focused build and get cdr from other sources, while sacrificing crit and attack speed.

Totally agree, now, it's

with the new essence reaver, marksmen who scale with cdr are coddled to buy essence reaver to easily get 30% cdr while sacrificing a mere amount of attack speed which they can earn back on the next item.

flibitydooDec 8, 20153 votes

except with the old essence reaver, marksman who scaled with cdr did not make a choice since old essence reaver was objectively bad as an item and considered largely by the community as a troll pick. Even building it on Ezreal was considered vastly inferior to the typical manamune build.

Raising the crit requirement discourages going ER into IE (which in some cases such as MF, was very abusable since MF already gains like +100% attackspeed from her W and she needs base ad since she gains +1 ad per level)

and no one asked for a smoother build path. there were barely any requests to change adcs in general. When the adc changes were proposed, many players complained against it since they thought that adcs were getting buffed and apparently no one wanted them to be buffed (since the boards community only cares about buffs and nerfs with patches rather than trying to find really cool and fun changes to play around) .

Critmaster GarenDec 8, 20155 votes

{quoted}

except with the old essence reaver, marksman who scaled with cdr did not make a choice since old essence reaver was objectively bad as an item and considered largely by the community as a troll pick. Even building it on Ezreal was considered vastly inferior to the typical manamune build.

Raising the crit requirement discourages going ER into IE (which in some cases such as MF, was very abusable since MF already gains like +100% attackspeed from her W and she needs base ad since she gains +1 ad per level)

and no one asked for a smoother build path. there were barely any requests to change adcs in general. When the adc changes were proposed, many players complained against it since they thought that adcs were getting buffed and apparently no one wanted them to be buffed (since the boards community only cares about buffs and nerfs with patches rather than trying to find really cool and fun changes to play around) .

the old essence reaver was one of the most cost efficient items in the game once completed.

first of all, the main reason why essence reaver was perceived as bad, was because of its build path. people wanted it to be a bit smoother to be able to get mana sustain and the 10% cdr before the entire item is finished. the main argument against the item was, that you had to invest almost 3k gold before you got to the stats youre building it for. while infinity edges items for example already provided crit and ad while you were building the thing.

its the same issue that kicked frozen mallet out of favour for bruisers, the removal of phage in the build path made the item very uncomfortable to build, and other alternatives provided an earlier power spike.

there were a ton of threads about an essence reaver rework that were about giving the item a better build path. so yes. people repeatedly asked for exactly that.

second, it was strong enough to be viable on caster varus in pro play.

raising the crit requirement isnt going to do shit, because instead of going essence reaver, i.e., then a zeal item, people will just go essence reaver, zeal, i.e. and get 30% cdr even sooner without even losing power compared to the other build path.

the problem isnt that it allows marksmen to get cdr too early, the problem with the item is, that it allows them to build 30% cdr into a standart auto attack build at all.

flibitydooDec 8, 20155 votes

Varus mid went manamune first. The exact same build Jayce follows. Since, he was basically Jayce mid (which was meta before Varus mid) but with stronger waveclear which was why he was picked. Tell me, do you enjoy telling lies?

Essence reaver was considered garbage because it didn't have the offensive power of IE, which is the same reason why Bloodthirster was not worth rushing as a core item.

The mana regen was considered irrelevant by the time the item was finished due to how expensive it was,

and the hilarious thing is that a "small essence reaver" was the original item. It used to cost something like 2500 gold- the issue being that because it was an early game item, you didn't have enough ad to benefit meaningfully off the mana vamp. And because it was a smaller item it was considered terrible. It was literally unbuyable as a smaller item.

Critmaster GarenDec 8, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Varus mid went manamune first. The exact same build Jayce follows. Since, he was basically Jayce mid (which was meta before Varus mid) but with stronger waveclear which was why he was picked. Tell me, do you enjoy telling lies?

im lying? so youre saying he didnt get essence reaver at all.

i never said that hed rush it, but that it was part of his caster build.

a smoother build path for the big item and making it a smaller item are two different things, mate. no one liked haunting guise, when it was a cost effective early game item that didnt build into anything. people wouldnt have liked a smaller essence reaver. but a big one with a better build path that would have either included a small essence reaver, or item 3114

thats what pretty much all the discussions were about.

flibitydooDec 8, 20155 votes

yes. Literally every Varus went Bloodthirster over Essence reaver since the lifesteal is much better than the 10% cdr/manavamp. You're still an adc, you still care about autos and casting Q more _actually cuts into DPS _ due to it's charge mechanic.

Critmaster GarenDec 8, 20154 votes

{quoted}

yes. Literally every Varus went Bloodthirster over Essence reaver since the lifesteal is much better than the 10% cdr/manavamp. You're still an adc, you still care about autos and casting Q more _actually cuts into DPS _ due to it's charge mechanic.

thats why ghostblade was part of the standart build. you had attack speed on demand from the active.

it still doesnt change the fact that the main reason it was deemed unpopular was the build path. the same as mallet after the removal of phage.

Sire HippingtonDec 8, 20152 votes

The worst thing on the PBE nerf is that it makes item 3508 worse for actuall caster builts, as it no longer gies the full cdr with item 3031 item 3078 , but normal AA focused builts still reach full cdr with only 1 more item...

While builts with no crit have few options and mostly no mana....

With their itemchanges, they actually killed real ad-caster builts and forced everyone into crit builts, countinuing their evil work with the next ER changes...

420 StylishDec 8, 20152 votes

Yeah, Essence Reaver is just too strong and a must grab on most, if not all ADCs. The ONLY thing it is lacking in is HP sustain, it gives a good amount of AD, 20% crit chance, 30% CDR, and mana sustain. I thought this Marksmen update was supposed to create diversity in the champions and items for them? I can't think of an ADC who doesn't build Essence Reaver, other than Ezreal .

AsydeDec 8, 20151 votes

I think a good way to balance Essence Reaver would be to make it give 10% passive CDR + 10% CDR for each additional item with critical strike it. (not dependant on value of critical strike on each item)

That way, when you first build it you get 10% CDR, then have to build 3 more items with crit on it in order to have 40%. Seeing as how almost every major item has critical strike now building 40% would still be easy, but it would be a progression over the game, rather than having max CDR by 15 minutes in.

Having essence reaver max CDR so early really limits the valuable choices there after. Buying any other item with CDR seems like such a waste (like Youmuu's)

Critmaster GarenDec 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I think a good way to balance Essence Reaver would be to make it give 10% passive CDR + 10% CDR for each additional item with critical strike it. (not dependant on value of critical strike on each item)

That way, when you first build it you get 10% CDR, then have to build 3 more items with crit on it in order to have 40%. Seeing as how almost every major item has critical strike now building 40% would still be easy, but it would be a progression over the game, rather than having max CDR by 15 minutes in.

Having essence reaver max CDR so early really limits the valuable choices there after. Buying any other item with CDR seems like such a waste (like Youmuu's)

this would make things even worse.

ad carries are running around with 70% to 100% crit chance by lategame because they can easily fit 2 zeal items into their builds. that would make it possible for them to get even more out of the item in extreme cases.

no item in this game gives more than 20% cdr except essence reaver. the least they could do is cap the total bonus at 20%.

but imo it shouldnt even be giving them more than 10%.

the sensible thing to do would have been to make more cdr/ad items and give them the option to get 30% cdr by stacking multiple items like the old essence reaver, that forced them to sacrifice crit and attack speed for cdr.

not to give them 30% cdr off one item that they can weave into an auto attack build.

AsydeDec 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NbozxBAW,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2015-12-09T05:30:57.347+0000)

this would make things even worse.

ad carries are running around with 70% to 100% crit chance by lategame because they can easily fit 2 zeal items into their builds. that would make it possible for them to get even more out of the item in extreme cases.

no item in this game gives more than 20% cdr except essence reaver. the least they could do is cap the total bonus at 20%.

but imo it shouldnt even be giving them more than 10%.

the sensible thing to do would have been to make more cdr/ad items and give them the option to get 30% cdr by stacking multiple items like the old essence reaver, that forced them to sacrifice crit and attack speed for cdr.

not to give them 30% cdr off one item that they can weave into an auto attack build.

They will never exceed 40% CDR anyway because that is the cap regardless. And I think your missing my point. If the item gave 10% flat CDR + 10% for each additional item with critical strike (regardless of how much critical strike) then that would drastically slow down how quickly they reach 40%, but still in a typical full build situation would reach 40% as Riot intended. The item would not care what percentage of crit you have or not. That makes no difference. It literally just gives you an additional 10% for every item that has crit at all. 10% whether the item has 20% crit or if it has 5%.

Think of it this way. Currently, All you need for 40% CDR is Essence reaver + one item with at least 20% Crit and 10% CDR (aka trinity).

However with my proposal, you would need something more like this: Essence (10% static CDR), Infinity (+10% bonus CDR), Static Shiv (+10% bonus CDR) + either another crit item or another item like Youmuu's with 10% CDR already on it.

This means that if you buy Essence first, for every item you complete there-after you would gain an additional 10% (up to a maximum of 40% CDR cap). Or if you built it last you would gain it all at once (but in the very late game) Either way, you wouldn't be able to reach max CDR at LEAST until your 4th damage item.

That is a huge difference (and improvement) than what we have now.

Critmaster GarenDec 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

They will never exceed 40% CDR anyway because that is the cap regardless. And I think your missing my point. If the item gave 10% flat CDR + 10% for each additional item with critical strike then that would drastically slow down how quickly they reach 40%, but still in a typical full build situation would reach 40% as Riot intended. The item would not care what percentage of crit you have or not. That makes no difference. It literally just gives you an additional 10% for every item that has crit at all. 10% whether the item has 20% crit or if it has 5%.

item 3508 item 1051 40% cdr.

adc shouldnt even be able to get cdr of crit in the first place. thats the entire point im trying to make. because instead of forcing them to chose between an auto attack or caster build like every other type of champion, it allows them to fit cdr and auto attack multilpliers into the same build.

with the old essence reaver they would have to dedicate an item slot to ad and cdr instead of crit + attack speed.

AsydeDec 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NbozxBAW,comment-id=000d000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-09T06:27:34.078+0000)

40% cdr.

adc shouldnt even be able to get cdr of crit in the first place. thats the entire point im trying to make.

I'm proposing that Essence only gives that to completed items. Not items that build into something. Yes, it seems odd at first that they have an item that gives another stat based on the value of another stat. But what they were trying to accomplish was to give ADC's a way to access CDR without sacrificing critical strike, and without forcing way too much CDR onto every tiem (unbalancing other classes)

Critmaster GarenDec 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm proposing that Essence only gives that to completed items. Not items that build into something.

this would still not fix the problem that this essence reaver removes the choice between a caster build and an auto attack build and just gives them both.

AsydeDec 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NbozxBAW,comment-id=000d00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-09T06:32:21.788+0000)

this would still not fix the problem that this essence reaver removes the choice between a caster build and an auto attack build and just gives them both.

I don't see what's wrong with that really. Mages use CDR and still have loads of AP for damage. ADCs use CDR and still have loads of AD/crit for damage. ADC's abilities typically aren't what do most of their damage anyway. They are usually forms of escape or CC. So unless you feel the extra CDR gives them too much CC/escape then I don't see what the problem is.

Essentially both are given access to full damage capabilities (whether than be AA or abilities) and full reduction on their cooldowns. That's only fair. If it creates a balance issue in the game then Riot needs to step up and solve it. But I think giving every class ability to max ability cooldown is far. Riot just needs to keep what they can do with that balanced.

Critmaster GarenDec 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't see what's wrong with that really. Mages use CDR and still have loads of AP for damage. ADCs use CDR and still have loads of AD/crit for damage. ADC's abilities typically aren't what do most of their damage anyway. They are usually forms of escape or CC. So unless you feel the extra CDR gives them too much CC/escape then I don't see what the problem is.

not having a lot of damage doesnt devalue the spell. classic supports dont have a lot of damage on their abilities, and yet cdr is one of the best stats for them, sicne theyre usually loaded with utility.

if there isnt damage on a marksman spell, there is usually cc, self peel or mobility.

it used to be that carries have attack speed and crtitical strike available as mulipliers to their ad. while mage, supports, tanks and ad casters have cdr as multiplier to their spells.

giving marksmen access to a large amount of cdr while at the same time they also build crit and attack speed turns them into adc and ad casters that both deal a shitload of damage with their auto attacks while having their abilities frequently available like an ad caster.

they have every single multiplicative stat to them available in 1 build. to both their spells and their auto attacks. thats better than what mages or actual ad caster champions get.

AsydeDec 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NbozxBAW,comment-id=000d0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-09T06:41:55.006+0000)

not having a lot of damage doesnt devalue the spell. classic supports dont have a lot of damage on their abilities, and yet cdr is one of the best stats for them, sicne theyre usually loaded with utility.

if there isnt damage on a marksman spell, there is usually cc, self peel or mobility.

it used to be that carries have attack speed and crtitical strike available as mulipliers to their ad. while mage, supports, tanks and ad casters have cdr as multiplier to their spells.

giving marksmen access to a large amount of cdr while at the same time they also build crit and attack speed turns them into adc and ad casters that both deal a shitload of damage with their auto attacks while having their abilities frequently available like an ad caster.

they have every single multiplicative stat to them available in 1 build. to both their spells and their auto attacks. thats better than what mages or actual ad caster champions get.

This is a much better argument and makes much more sense. But let's be perfectly clear, based on what you said it seems your issue with Essence Reaver is not so much what the item it does or how it does it, it's that at a core level you don't believe ADCs as a class should have access to much CDR (in addition to crit/aa stats). If that's the case, there is no solution other than removing the item that will please you. Which may in fact be the best balancing solution.

However assuming the item will remain in the game, and assuming it will always guarantee 40% CDR cap, I believe my solution is the best so far for allowing that % to progress over the course of the game, rather than all at once early on (causing an overwhelming power shift in the early game)

ParoeDec 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I don't see what's wrong with that really. Mages use CDR and still have loads of AP for damage. ADCs use CDR and still have loads of AD/crit for damage. ADC's abilities typically aren't what do most of their damage anyway. They are usually forms of escape or CC. So unless you feel the extra CDR gives them too much CC/escape then I don't see what the problem is.

ADCs do more damage than APCs. By far. With 100% crit chance being not only plausible, but viable on all marksman, it creates a problem of ADCs out damaging everything else with AAs alone, AND getting to use their abilities faster. Most ADCs at this point either have massive burst (graves) or obscene mobility (Lucian/vayne).

SquidblimpDec 9, 20151 votes

It's getting nerfed this patch so you have to buy the whole second crit item before you get the 30%, not just a Zeal or Cloak of Agility. That should help. But yeah, I think mages need some way to get 40% CDR more easily. Right now I'm running Athene's or Morello's along with 20% scaling CDR runes, or I'm running a Lich Bane on top of one of those 2 mana regen items, along with 10% scaling CDR runes.

SquidblimpDec 9, 20151 votes

Also, keep in mind that ADCs have to choose between Infinity Edge for increased crits, or Essence Reaver for the CDR. If they get both, they are missing out on armor penetration, life steal, attack speed, or a defensive item. I can only see both those items being built if the enemy has no tanks and no armor.

Critmaster GarenDec 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Also, keep in mind that ADCs have to choose between Infinity Edge for increased crits, or Essence Reaver for the CDR. If they get both, they are missing out on armor penetration, life steal, attack speed, or a defensive item. I can only see both those items being built if the enemy has no tanks and no armor.

theyre missing out on nothing, as they can still fit all of that into one build. there is no choice involed, and thats the problem.

ParoeDec 9, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NbozxBAW,comment-id=001000000000,timestamp=2015-12-09T06:45:14.742+0000)

theyre missing out on nothing, as they can still fit all of that into one build.

item 3031 item 3006 item 3087 item 3508 item 3085 item 3812 In that order. 100% crit chance by 5th item. On an ADC budget. Because you can farm.

SquidblimpDec 9, 20151 votes

Well let's see. A typical ADC build is:

Boots (Berserker's Greaves)
AD Crit Item (Infinity Edge OR Essence Reaver)
Attack Speed Crit Item (Statikk Shiv, Firecannon, Runaan's, PD)
Life Steal Item (Bloodthirster, Mercurial, BotRK, Death's Dance)
Armor Penetration Item (Lord Dominik's OR Mortal Reminder, possibly Black Cleaver, Maw of Malmortius, Youmuu's?)
Defensive Item (Guardian's Angel, Banshee's Veil, Mercurial if they got another lifesteal item already)

As you can see, they'd either have to forgo armor pen or a defensive item most likely. I SUPPOSE you could run Mercurial as both a defensive item and a life steal item and then run Essence Reaver, but then you miss out on the shield from Bloodthirster and the 20% life steal. The only way you could replace an armor pen item with Essence Reaver/Infinity Edge is if they have no tanks or armor items.

If they decide to just altogether not get any defensive items just for the CDR, then just dive them and kill them, they won't be able to do anything about it.

I do agree that Essence Reaver was OP originally because you could get Essence Reaver into Zeal and have 30% CDR, but now it's going to be 20% with Zeal, so the power spike will happen later. Let's see what happens with this nerf, it could help. :)

ForgiveColourDec 9, 20151 votes

Doesnt change the fact that ad is still the weakest class in the game

Critmaster GarenDec 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Doesnt change the fact that ad is still the weakest class in the game

so weak in fact. that they have never fallen out of meta or werent completely mandatory to a team in 6 years.

pls mate. i cant tell if youre joking.

ForgiveColourDec 9, 20151 votes

yeah mandatory for taking objectives. If league changed into a game where its all about getting kills then bot lane would just be kill lanes every game rofl. The only strong adc right now is mf and quinn because they have broken kit. The class that dominates the patch is mages and tanks

Critmaster GarenDec 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

yeah mandatory for taking objectives. If league changed into a game where its all about getting kills then bot lane would just be kill lanes every game rofl. The only strong adc right now is mf and quinn because they have broken kit. The class that dominates the patch is mages and tanks

excuse me princess, that your class only has one gamewarping advantage and cant also 1v1 every single champion in the game.

also, adc are strong as fuck even compared to other champions. people are just playing their hard counters now because it has become about kill the adc to win game again, due to how much impact they have.

and what pisses me off the most is that adc mains often think their champion is weak just because they compare him to another broken adc. when compared to most other champions in the game in general theyre all ridiculously strong when played halfway competent.

no, just because jinx is way too strong, doesnt mean varus or ashe are weak. these champions can still carry games. they just dont carry as hard as usual adc top picks.

ForgiveColourDec 9, 20151 votes

you still have yet proven why adc is the strongest in this game. If adc are so strong then why does double ad lane always lose to ad and support? Why does ad always need a support beside them when going around if they are so strong?