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Teemo; A Small Decision-Making Change

Stacona··3 votes·847 views

I will try to make this brief, and nothing I am suggesting will change how Teemo is now, but adds a decision making mechanic to his Toxic Shot (E). One form will be the same as it is now, but you can turn it off for a different form (which is why nothing needs to be taken away elsewhere cause its a this or that mechanic)...

Basic Attack Range: 500 units (just stating what it is now)

Teemo's Blowgun (E): Static Cooldown: 2 seconds; [Toggle ability, renamed to better fit the idea] Toggle ON: Teemo's basic attacks deal 10/20/30/40/50(+30%AP) bonus magic damage on-hit plus apply a poison for 4 seconds dealing 6/12/18/24/30(+10%AP) magic damage per second.

Toggle OFF: Teemo's basic attacks gain 80/110/140/170/200 units bonus range to his basic attacks and deals 10% base attack damage as bonus physical damage on-hit, this bonus damage can critically strike.

10% base attack damage is because Teemo has low base AD because of Toxic Shot's bonus damage; so it actually is not increased damage it is just normalizing his damage with the other marksmen without changing his base stats. This is mostly only an AD Teemo thing and it doesn't hurt AP Teemo at all cause nothing is changed, and having a decision making effect will just feel better to play as since then Teemo can decide whether he wants to sacrifice his range for damage or sacrifice his damage for range; also the ranks are 580/610/640/670/700 units range for those that have trouble adding. I went with a change like this as since Teemo has a full out marksman play pattern and kit already (Move Quick helps him kit, he is full damage, and a ranged sustain damage dealer) might as well just have effects that play around that and he will be the objective and map control marksman with his shrooms and stealth passive.

42 Comments

Mathbalnase2 votes

Teemo needs a full rework before he's likely get anything remotely resembling an unambiguous buff like this.

Stacona1 votes

He doesn't need a full rework at all, he doesn't have majour balance problems playing against him and I like play as Teemo

The thing you may hate about him are his shrooms which is his core gameplay and identity - and Riot tried to make it less frustrating to go against Teemo with shroom duration reduction, and allow to still be map control and open up it being a scouting tool with the range increase at ranks 2 and 3

Mathbalnase1 votes

I actually enjoy playing Teemo. I like his shrooms (and do not 'hate' them when I play against a Teemo, because as a Teemo player I know what works to deal with them).

I've also spent several years playing this game without seeing Teemo be competitively viable for more than a single patch cycle, and with that having more to do with counterpicking than with Teemo being powerful in his own right. In that time, I've seen him get nerf after nerf after nerf, with the closest thing to a significant buff being a long-overdue bug fix. I've watched discussions within the community slaver over the prospect of more nerfs. I've seen Rioters openly state that Teemo will not be allowed to be competitively viable without a rework while also stating that they not only do not intend to rework him for the foreseeable future, but in fact intend to not rework him, not because he doesn't need it, but because they fear the backlash from those that like his current kit.

Teemo needs a rework. Riot needs to be convinced that Teemo fans want a rework. Teemo fans need to be convinced that Teemo needs a rework.

Stacona1 votes

They already gave him a mini rework with the passive and shrooms- the shrooms is the thing people do not play against him and they found a good middle ground solution and implemented it already - a This or That mechanic on his E will provide a nice decision making tool and have a good trade off since the power of Teemo top is the poison power rather than being ranged, because other wise Caitlyn top would be a thing, where as in bottom lane the poison adds more damage but is not overbearing since he is also against other ranged champions so making him be played in the bottom lane makes him more balanced than having him be some weird ranged bruiser top lane that functions exactly like a marksman

And Riot would have nothing against Teemo being played competitively, and Why would they? An objective and map control focused marksman is super cool and adds a lot of strategy to why you would pick Teemo over Corki for magic damage, Kog'Maw for hyper marksman DPS, Twitch for AoE teamifighting and assassin power, Sivir as the AoE-waveclear-run them down, Vayne as the tank busting duelist, Graves as in the face shotgun dude, Ashe as the CC and utility heavy marksman, etc... everyone has their own very unique styles to why you would pick them

Blinding Dart would be the one ability that would get reworked; problem is Blind is such a huge identity to Teemo's identity and I am fine with it because it is a crowd control, so its like a silence for basic attacks- minus the fact that it is not hard cc

If you would change it, it should be scouting based - something like a very long range low damage AoE line skill shot, dealing magic damage and applying vision to enemies struck as well as revealing a large area around it as the projectile travels- or could be a dynamic damage where it starts out high magic damage nuke and decreases in damage based on how much it has traveled to very low values still granting the vision around it and applying vision to struck enemies, close range high damage will play around hiding in stealth for close range assassination

Blinding Dart would only get reworked if Riot hates blinds that much that they really want to remove it from Teemo - but granting a decision making process between range or damage can be implemented without changing anything about him

UberAffe1 votes

200 bonus range ... that would give him the longest non-active auto range in the game. I would be ok with having his e be a toggle similar to cho'gaths but there is no reason for the range boost.

Stacona1 votes

Jinx 700, Kog 710; since Teemo has kiting with move quick he won't get benefits outside of just long range- also be balanced since his damage will be on the short range

I don't want it to be like Cho'Gath, I like a trade off spell more, because people will never turn it off - the reason cho has it is cause it is AoE and auto shoves waves when it is up

UberAffe1 votes

those ranges have costs tied to them though, jinx costs mana per auto and kog's is flat mana and a cd.

Getting that much extra range for free(would really only be used as AD teemo) would require some extra balancing of his power.

Stacona1 votes

Jinx does 10% increased damage and her shots are AoE and can critically strike so she gets benefits

Its not free range cause it shaves off a bunch of damage; rather than use mana you deal less damage so there is a cost, not all costs need Mana; because if it used Mana then it has to have more power to it rather than just range and then we get into balance problems

Do not forget it does not cost him anything to get the extra damage in his short range; a this or that is fine in terms of balance

A good Kog'Maw does not really care about the cooldown (cost is only back on PBE, no cost on LIVE) - and he get range and damage, where as this is range OR damage and makes a massive difference with the trade off so it is really difficult to properly compare the two values and both would be considered balance because they both have their own costs - one being a decision making and the other being a power window

I tried to make it so the range comes on mid game and not during the brunt of laning phase, and in some or a lot of cases, not in laning phase at all since level 9 is a lot slower in a duo lane than solo lane (solo lane champions have a greater chance of out ranging him or have gap closers to make the range not a factor)

UberAffe1 votes

The reason I say it should have some other cost with the range increase is this:

  • AP teemo gets very little out of it, extremely low damage poke
  • AD teemo gets a free range boost because he doesn't benefit from the poison.

With your suggestion as is it leaves ap teemo practically unaltered and is a direct buff to ad teemo.

Stacona1 votes

AD Teemo benefits extremely highly with the poison; yes the effect does help AD more than AP - but it is still useful for AP and vice versa

I don't want Teemo to be crazy strong which is why I don't want to change his kit at the moment Is a range instead of damage option a buff? Yes; Would it make Teemo overpowered? No; Will Teemo be balanced? Hopefully, and most likely, yes This is a buff to make Teemo truly viable as a marksman and can be played as the map control marksman without going over the top - it is a buff that helps him out, but does not increase his power any higher than it already is

a longer static cooldown would be the thing to have a bigger cost cause then it will increase the short window to take advantage of the difference of his power between more range and more damage

DeloricVI1 votes

Pending some numbers tweaking, this change is actually really interesting... although, this would give him even more disgusting harass in top lane, because he can just snipe you from half way across the lane ._.

Stacona1 votes

Hmm, I don't know how to stop top lane Teemo; but if he is more favoured as a marksman and balanced around being bottom lane duo you would not need to worry about solo lane Teemo cause he would always be in the duo lane

And you are over estimating the range, its shorter than Jinx until rank 5, but Teemo is still a squishy ranged marksman; AD or AP; so he is vulnerable to being jumped on and all-in'd --- but again not sure how to stop Teemo from going solo lane outside of making him more tempting to be the marksman that he is

Meep Man1 votes

Maybe nerf his health and armor per level. Its currently like +82 or 83 per level and armor is +3.75. Its really weird.

Stacona1 votes

Pretty sure that is normal and I think on the slightly weaker side for a ranged champion, which ranged champions have A LOT less base stats over melee champions

Meep Man1 votes

The average ADC gets 77-81 health per level and 3 armor per level. The health is a small difference, but that armor goes up to about a 8% extra reduction to physical damage excluding bonus armor.

Stacona1 votes

but then his level 1 stats are probably lower then -

Meep Man1 votes

Average health and armor actually. (516 health and 25 armor unmodified)

happy is all1 votes

First off, lowering a champion's base AD just because they have some kind of attack booster (think, Orianna passive or, Heimer HP regen pre-update), is just something that shouldn't be done in the first place. Giving a champion a bonus through an ability shouldn't be partially-negated by the fact that they have a low base stat. This is the fault of RIOT only.

Stacona1 votes

But Toxic Shot makes his base ad higher even by rank 1, I am fine with it as long as the ability is actually granting more than what he would have had with higher base ad [normalized base ad]; so without changing stats at all I just made the effect give normal base AD so Teemo will not be overpowered

Heimer never had nerfed health regen, now his health regen can be insane cause its all % base on items

happy is all1 votes

As long as a base stat is a stat that is actually important in any way, this really doesn't help when trying to do some kind of build that is based off of the actual base stat.

Also, when they updated health regen, they had to change Heimer because his passive was basically making up his health regen.

Stacona1 votes

it was because % base health regen would have given him 0 health regen, so now health regen items are actually insanely efficient on him

UberAffe1 votes

What I would like to see done for teemo is this:

  • increase shroom damage to something between current and old damage
  • increase shroom duration to something between current and old
  • shrooms arm instantly on landing
  • shrooms no longer detonate instantly instead,
  • shrooms reveal themselves for a short time before exploding

the timings would be such that it would always hit you if you continue walking in the same direction, but if you turn around you could avoid the damage might require changes to the radius to achieve that effect.

Stacona1 votes

Nah, I like his new Shrooms - I like the shrooms being for utility rather than one shoting someone and the utility with the range to scout with them, it adds to the theme of "the Swift Scout" I think his ultimate is fine at the moment and finally play around his theme

increased damage or increased range to basic attacks I think play around the 'laying in wait until someone steps on a shroom then ambush them from stealth passive' - so i like uniqueness and theme coherency better than op shrooms

UberAffe1 votes

the damage and duration is just because i think they went a bit overboard, but the timing is the important part. The unavoidable damage is the part that makes everyone hate teemo so much. And adding counter play to his shrooms lets them give him some power in other places.

Stacona1 votes

I like these shrooms right now and I think they are fine - they did lower the arm time and creation rate just a couple of patches ago remember, that is a pretty good compensation buff to the shrooms

UberAffe1 votes

The idea isn't for making them stronger, it's for addressing the frustration of people playing against teemo.

Stacona1 votes

But didn't the recent shroom change help relieve that frustration? Because if there is half a shroom duration then there should be a lot less shrooms on the map at one time, which means you can grant Teemo more power in the future - like a change that can allow Teemo to choose between more range or keep his bonus damage

UberAffe1 votes

Yes and no. It did technically reduce the maximum number but only if you were placing them on cooldown. You can still have an entire section of jungle shroomed. At least from what I have heard the frustrating part is that there is no skill involved with the counterplay of the shrooms. You either have a way of gaining vision and you clear them or you don't have a way and you get hit by them.

With my idea it rewards you for being attentive and gives you the chance to avoid the damage.

And to be clear this wouldn't be altering anything else about his shrooms other than what I mentioned.

Stacona1 votes

So you made the argument that we need to nerf his shroom damage, base and ratio, and increase its utility like lowering the recharge rate further so that it emphasizes scouting better than damage output - and the slow is there to keep the trap mechanic for the assassination from waiting in stealth passive --- this will make Shrooms more local than global innately, even if Teemo is not there his teammates need to be to capitalize on the slow, and even without the slow they still provide vision around them for map control. [Slow duration is 4 seconds, so blind would be half the duration at 2 seconds]

What you think about lowering the base damage, lowering the ratio, decreasing the creation rate even further (especially for later ranks), and adding blind [as well as still slows] to the shrooms? We can even lower the arm time further to like 0.75 or 0.5 from 1 second allowing Teemo to be more active with shrooms as well.

Blinding Dart would then be completely remade and renamed to something else.

Maybe to a very long range skill shot that reveals the area around the dart and apply vision to struck enemies for X seconds, the damage will be based on distance [closer you are, more damage you deal, emphasize the laying in wait assassination with the passive] something like 80/130/180/230/280(+80%AP) to 8/13/18/23/28(+8%AP) magic damage and can double in damage to those currently afflicted by a shroom to make up for a lot less shroom damage. This will localize Teemo and make him less frustrating to play against while emphasizing vision control, map control, objective control play style as either an AP marksman or AD marksman [AP marksmen are finally a thing with the PBE changes].

UberAffe1 votes

I still don't think that solves the problem people have with his shrooms. Even if all they did was slow and did no damage they would still piss people off because you can't effectively counter them.

Although that last part about the q change gave me a fun idea. Not sure if this should be for teemo or someone else but it could work for him.

  • The q would now be a longish range skillshot decently farther than auto range.
  • It would do some damage and create a tether for all of teemo's auto attacks over the next x seconds.
  • During this time teemo's autos would have no cast time( same attack speed though)
  • all autos would travel along the tether
  • Pressing q while tethered would send an auto along the line
  • tether could attach to structures, champions or large monsters but ignores minions and small monsters

I don't know if that would really fit with teemo's theme but I can think of some fun interactions with it.

Stacona1 votes

I went further in on the idea as a mini gameplay update, taking away all direct damage on the shrooms and apply a debuff allowing his magic damage to double for a short time, this localizes Teemo and makes him more fair to play against since invisible traps that deal a sht ton of damage is not very fair-- the shrooms gain a lot more utility in all aspects and become more focused on map control and vision control

I'm not sure how much people will hate me for suggesting about removing shrooms direct damage, but it is the only thing I can think of that makes them fair to play against while they still grant vision and slow enemies

UberAffe1 votes

As much as I love teemo's shrooms for the utility, only having a single active damaging ability is pretty rough for a solo laner.

Stacona1 votes

I want to move Teemo out of the solo lane and into the marksman duo lane role- obviously he can still always be able to solo lane, but by making him as a marksman just makes him easier to balance and gives him a better identity and role into a team

Meep Man1 votes

I don't know if this would be a good idea. I am currently testing a Stattik Shiv plus Rapid Firecannon build for him on the PBE and it has really obnoxious range. This might make it too good. Not saying its BAD, just saying we might want to wait till at least past next update.

If Teemo were to get bonus range, I would much rather have it be attached to say the first basic attack out of his passive.

Stacona1 votes

The difference being that Rapid fire keeps his toxic shot damage - and try playing AP marksmen, they gave gunblade the ability for on-hit magic damage life steal (right now it heals off towers too, which technically it is working as intended, but I don't think they planned on life stealing off towers)-- AP Marksman Varus, AP Marksman Teemo, and I did get around to AP Marksman Twisted Fate (once you get items plays very differently over normal TF) and are all very strong once they have items- very fun to play too, gunblade, rageblade, nashor's tooth all good items for it (they use AD cause they are basic attack play styles)

There is a difference since this sacrifices damage for range, where as rapid fire does not sacrifice damage, it adds BURST damage and 150 more range

Meep Man1 votes

Im saying what if you combined the 200 bonus range with Rapid's bonus range for extremely obnoxious range with no mana cost. Plus you could also then build AD Teemo and... the crits.

Stacona1 votes

Will be fine because again he loses out on extra damage- he costs damage, so he doesn't need a mana cost because he is giving up something for the range- if it costs mana then he has to gain some benefit to it-- its not like Teemo has a jump, dash, or AoE knock back so he can be jumped on and its not like there is no counter play to it- unlike kog or jinx he won't have extra damage- so haveing one 850 range basic attack from rapid fire won't be busted- Twitch can get many AoE versions of that with bonus AD (Twitch can have a 1000 range basic attack with rapid fire)

Akenero1 votes

Teemo is annoying for one reason top, his ability to completely isolate you from your team via mushrooms, harass can be built against, but when you must build around both physical and magical damage, it's ungodly annoying, and considering he still has his damn blind in this concept, it's only increasing the severity of punishment he outputs, let's say you engage with tryndamere, a matchup I'm experienced in winning with trynd, I use w to slow teemo, e in and he blinds me, i have no extra damage to deal until blind is down, so I back off and use q, rinse and repeat. Adding an additional option to hit me while I'm walking away gives even more harassment that is difficult to handle, especially using a maw.

Stacona1 votes

Doesn't the shroom duration reduction help fix that then?

If Teemo becomes a duo laner than a top laner doesn't that help fix the problem?

Technically Teemo is suppose to hard counter someone like Tryndamere so Tryndamere is not the champion you should be playing against him-- if you pick tryn into teemo you should lose that 100% of the time

Here is how you should look at it - if Teemo does not have his blind then imagine what other defensive tools he would have to have to replace it... and when you take in the other possibilities a blind is the one that makes him not over the top - also it can be cleansed or lowered from tenacity

Akenero1 votes

True, and I often get counter picked when I grab trynd, but I've learned the matchup that well. And most teemo's would stay top lane due to increased dominance

Naomi CoffeeGoat1 votes

I can only think Riot doesn't really care about AD Teemo enough for a change like this to go through nor does anyone else really. It's a buff for something that's hardly played that could also ramp up how much early game potential this champ has when being played normally. Not to mention since this champ is primarily played in the top lane, this would give him disgusting harass potential when he gets extra range for no cost at all. It's made even more disgusting when his ability move quick allows for decent kiting.

Also calling it Teemo's Blowgun makes not a lot of sense since it's the darts themselves that make up the ability and not the blowgun.

Stacona1 votes

Its not early game dominance because you have to get points into the ability first, so he gets the range in the mid game

Its also not free range, he gives up his damage for it, Caitlyn is free range because she has no downsides for having her range

Again, if Teemo moves to the duo lane you do not need to worry about solo lane Teemo cause he won't be there; Caitlyn top is even worse but she only gets played duo lane so no one knows about it

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