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Shyvana will be absolutely unfair with her new passive

Big Lincoln··69 votes·5,504 views

it is an extreme amount of extraneous power tied to an objective. This kind of idea has already proven to be either too strong or absolutely awful with no in-between Skarner Mordekaiser ; why are you taking it a step further and giving her bonuses based on which dragon spawns?

With 3 mountain drakes Shyvana can solo Baron and Elder drake with almost no damage taken, as well as being able to tear down turrets without minion waves. The 20% reduction from monsters via passive combined with the 30% bonus true damage to monsters makes her one of the strongest splitpushers. She will have some of the fastest objective-killing in the game, to boot.

3 Infernals will have the same effect on her damage in teamfights; with 10% of her damage becoming true, she will shred through any champion even harder than she already does.

Ocean giving her CDR will mess with builds and rune pages; especially an uneven number like 15. Something similar was tried with Cassiopeia's first rework and it proved to make her builds less flexible and more frustrating. It's not necessary.

Air Drake is the least offensive, but slow resistance is a powerful stat right now.

tl;dr I'm surprised this passive is even being considered. Riot even knows that making her reliant on this would make her too feast or famine. But making her not NEED the buffs like she currently does just creates one of the strongest win-more mechanics in the game. At most, the bonuses should be very minor and utilitarian; these huge boons to objective-taking and damage potential are simply too much, and should NOT be her primary passive.

75 Comments

an actual dog24 votes

I think you're seriously overestimating the true damage buff. Any mention of true damage on a champion's kit kinda just sounds OP. But look at the numbers, say you have the 10% true damage conversion(and that's if you get 3 Infernal drakes), your autoattack damage is 150, and the target has 100 armor. 100 armor reduces physical damage by half.

Without the buff: 150/2 = 75 With the buff you're doing 135 physical damage plus 15 true damage, so: 135/2 + 15 = 82 That's it, 82 damage instead of 75. If you have just one Infernal, you're doing 79 instead of 75 damage.

Does that sound broken to you? If anything I'd say it needs a buff.

Zenthon Prime2 votes

The true damage buff is actually good for things like objectives. But nothing else, really.

The thing is, even on live Shyvana can still basically one-shot squishies. She never does, though, because she doesn't get in range. More damage won't change that she won't get it off.

Big Lincoln5 votes

you're neglecting that the true damage applies to all her damage. damage from her Q, her W, her E, everything.

even from items like ruined king and sated; 10% of the damage will be true damage, which is more of a buff to her tank killing power. it stacks up quite a bit.

regardless of balance, this mechanic is poorly designed and poorly executed.

Zenthon Prime12 votes

If you let Shyv in range to get any of that off, you already failed.

Big Lincoln4 votes

oh, if i let shyv into melee range, as another melee champion, I failed.

this solves none of her problems, but at least she got an unreliable passive that silvers thought was cool

ßurst1 votes

The passive isn't even that good at when do you ever get 3 infernals and when do you ever get 3 mountain drakes ? I'm pretty sure riot knew this and that's why it's on pbe they thought this through and did some type of math for it and found it isn't broken. Let's say somehow somewhere her e did 800 dmg 10 % of that is only 80 damage. A tank has a bare minimum of 3500 that's not even tank tho that's jugs so we are talking even more now chill

RaptorKarr2 votes

When I play Riven Internals are the only Drake that seems to spawn :P

macromite3 votes

shyv is the most mobile juggernaut, it isn't her getting in range, it's her staying in range.

LXII1 votes

And all of this assumes that Shyvana just AA's her targets. Not gonna debuff them first, won't have her vortex going, won't be using double hit... just gonna AA them regularly.

10% True damage is huge no matter how you try to slice it.

GinoSoldier10 votes

^ What this guy said. Plus, it's not like the enemy team will just LET you get all the dragons. Hell, some games you won't get any of them. Can't quite call the passive broken then, can you? I do admit some of these numbers are scary but they have a gigantic IF on them.

Ben Sharpio9 votes

It's more about it being an incredibly unhealthy RNG passive.

it's not like the enemy team will just LET you get all the dragons.

What do you even mean by this? If your team is behind, you have to give up dragons, or you force fights to lose, and give up more gold. Now, if she's in your game, you have to force fights you will most likely lose and upon getting more gold, you give Shyvana even MORE snowball on top of what she would already have. She gets **two **powerful buffs from securing dragons, and it translates into different things than just "scary numbers"

She's already a very good example of a champ that is usually 1-2 levels above your jungler, but now she's going to be even more of a pain to deal with if she gets even the slightest bit ahead of you

The Blue Rajah1 votes

The thing is, she probably won't be 1-2 levels above the average jungle anymore since they made specific jungle changes (experience scaling and respawn timers) specifically to keep down the power jungling play style. Though she will still have one of the best clears, having both good single target and aoe damage.

Big Lincoln1 votes

she will definitely have a hard lead if she's doing her job correctly. given that she's one of the best counterjunglers in the game and losing a camp is much more punishing than it's been in a long time, shyvana should have no problem getting a giant gold and XP lead if she plays well

Ceapi1 votes

That is the problem IF.It works bot ways if she gets dragons she snowballs and gets another one , and if she doesn't get any she loses power.

RaiokuMoonscar2 votes

Doesn't necessarily lose any power at all just doesn't get access to increased power, which isn't an issue cuz she is still a large threat without them in an even game.

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

Exactly. Riot mentioned they are going to make her useful even without the buffs so she doesn't have to rely on them. That means these dragon are just a big bonus. She doesn't need them, but in case she gets them, she is basically unstoppable.

I don't understand how they can give huge buffs like that to a champion and say they are going to make her strong enough to not rely on them.

Requiemsfire3 votes

It's cool in an RP sort of sense but the passive being tied to the objectives means that every game where you lock in Shyvana there's a chance you won't be able to make use of that passive where if you're losing the game there's a chance that shyvana being balanced around this passive would lead to her being shut down even harder.

RaiokuMoonscar1 votes

Thing is she doesn't need the passive to function well according to riot, it's just overall a flat bonus if she gets them.

Ferus and Ferrum3 votes

Like the same flat bonus it is to every other champ in the game that doesnt need them to function?

PermabannedGaren1 votes

{quoted}

Thing is she doesn't need the passive to function well according to riot, it's just overall a flat bonus if she gets them.

So she's going to be strong normally, and completely impossible to deal with if she's doing well and gets the right buffs?

Oh yeah that's a lot better lol.

Leetri1 votes

"Strong" and "function well" is not the same thing. She's gonna be fine without any dragon buffs, but if she does get them then she becomes strong.

KoKoboto1 votes

Riot themself said that she isn't being balanced around her passive, it's just additional power to her kit.

You can talk about "hey she shouldn't get additional power from that!" but shouldn't talk about how Riot is balancing her around it cause right now they aren't. She should be fine without any dragons.

Dominick Destine3 votes

Shyvana could use the buffs.

sp4412 votes

Yeah, gotta be perfectly honest, not a fan of the Passive Change. While I think she could use a better passive (Seriously, why not just give her more Armor/MR if you want her to have higher base defenses?), I don't think making her more snowbally with the Dragons is the way to go.

Personally, I think something better would be that a certain percentage of damage taken is converted into gray health, which can be recovered by inflicting damage, or something.

Karn Bishop2 votes

TL;DR: upset person about a champion that gets ahead being strong and powerful for doing their jobs correctly.

He also forgets that she loses her doubled MR and armor buff in exchange for this passive which means her builds will have to change to include more resist options if she wants any durability, people will also be more aware of dragons when vs a shyv in the same way people are more aware of kindreds marked camps when vs her which should make it much harder to challenge a dragon in general.

Emerald Fang2 votes

I really don't like the idea of her passive; it's way too objective-based and it requires your teammates to actually cooperate and help with objectives, which rarely happens. It seems way too hit-or-miss; some games the enemy team just happens to get all the dragons and some games your team does.

So I agree.

Chatillon2 votes

i just think its dumb for her passive to be different every game

rtbf2256182412 votes

Meanwhile MonkeyKing passive:

Stone Skin:Wukong gains 4 / 6 / 8 bonus armor and magic resistance for each visible nearby enemy champion.

(That shit's only useful in teamfights to a questionable degree.)

Lovelle2 votes

Sounds like an extreme nerf to 3v3 and anything-but-Summoner's Rift Shyvana.

RaptorKarr1 votes

There going to add special conditions on maps with no dragons

AgeOfTheMage2 votes

Personally i think shyvanna is fine where she is

Bladerunner77772 votes

If you got 3 mountain drakes you could probably solo baron without the passive

Big Lincoln2 votes

you can; 20% reduction from baron's damage + 30% extra true damage means you can take baron very quickly depending on your build, and with barely any hp lost to boot

Bladerunner77777 votes

What I'm saying is that you don't need 20% reduction from Baron, Shyvana could easily solo Baron in the current patch if she had 3 mountain drakes

Dengeden2 votes

Skarner isn't even remotely awful. Salty mains be salty. Morde-busted-because-he-could-proxy-farm-at-level-1-you-little-

Shyv builds Triforce or Visage and even that is rare, which she'll do when Ocean Drakes spawn. She could solo Baron when Sated Devourer was a thing, I guess they wanna see if they want to push her into that role again.

I don't see why rewarding her for securing objectives is a bad thing by any means.

Terchio1 votes

Considering Skarner is the second highest winrate jungle, no, I don't think he is remotely awful. Too bad OP mentioned them being either good or bad, no middle.

And not following on the rest of that. I cannot fathom the relation between item 3078 item 3065. My guess is that you're noting that builds that need no sustain (with Ocean Drakes) will favor those items, but really, she could still go a number of ways. Not sure how one possible build on her is going to be evidence of something, particularly when dependent on a certain Drake. And what about the other Drakes?

And really, there is no reason to make a certain champion double up on objectives. It simply means that champion will be that much more hinged on that objective, and that much easier to shut down from viability by withholding that objective. Similarly, Skarner is basically impossible to counterjungle or effectively ward against because he inherently holds a very strong buff indefinitely, as long as you fail to deactivate it in his jungle. This doesn't make Skarner impossible to beat. However, it does leave him nearly unbeatable in a gameplay factor within his role, and therefore easier to make up for the rest of his role.

As far as Morde goes... Just don't let his team get a dragon. Pretty simple, and his peak power is unreachable.

These issues are surmountable when it is a small, mediocre thing, like killing a minion with Irelia Bladesurge or general abilities requiring units to hop to in general, but when it can be obtained by an effect with a very long cooldown especially, it leaves a long, mandatory lull if you miss it, which then forces the ability to be buffed substantially, and finally forces the champion to be either miserable to play or miserable to play against, swaying with the general population usually until ultimately people play the champion as a tanky speedster who can complete the bot gank and hoard the objective and its overbearing buffs, no matter who they face.

Dengeden1 votes

{quoted}

Considering Skarner is the second highest winrate jungle, no, I don't think he is remotely awful. Too bad OP mentioned them being either good or bad, no middle.

Yeah but Skarner was neither good nor bad before the mini-item 3078 rework. So there.

And not following on the rest of that. I cannot fathom the relation between item 3078 item 3065.

They're the two CDR items that Shyv will build. I imagine she'll go for the former when she kills Ocean Drakes. Otherwise, she won't go for CDR heavy builds, much less include them in her runes.

And really, there is no reason to make a certain champion double up on objectives.

Objectives are the most dynamic part of the game. Controlling them factors in warding, power spikes, positioning and minion waves. Why wouldn't you double down on that?

As far as Morde goes... Just don't let his team get a dragon. Pretty simple, and his peak power is unreachable.

This sounds to me like: "don't let his team get towers, don't let him get farm". I mean, yeah, it'd work but it's an impossible demand.

These issues are surmountable when it is a small, mediocre thing, like killing a minion with Irelia Bladesurge or general abilities requiring units to hop to in general, but when it can be obtained by an effect with a very long cooldown especially, it leaves a long, mandatory lull if you miss it

You are describing any champion with an ultimate here.

which then forces the ability to be buffed substantially

which makes this untrue.

and finally forces the champion to be either miserable to play or miserable to play against

Also true for every champion.

swaying with the general population usually until ultimately people play the champion as a tanky speedster who can complete the bot gank and hoard the objective and its overbearing buffs, no matter who they face.

Yes. The game is centered around bot lane.

Terchio1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah but Skarner was neither good nor bad before the mini-item 3078 rework. So there.

Nah, he was pretty decent, and still fresh. A little underused, but quite a high win ratio regardless.

They're the two CDR items that Shyv will build. I imagine she'll go for the former when she kills Ocean Drakes. Otherwise, she won't go for CDR heavy builds, much less include them in her runes.

Fair enough, I guess. Many champs have CDR overkill issues at the moment, but it would be generally a waste on Shyv, probably.

Objectives are the most dynamic part of the game. Controlling them factors in warding, power spikes, positioning and minion waves. Why wouldn't you double down on that?

Pretty much for this reasoning exactly. They are an important factor in the game. And you build overkill on those, you get champions like Skarner and items like Ohmwrecker. Skarner is a perfectly capable champion in his own right without his energy spires, and the addition of those bring him up to an overboard state in some cases, until you learn to avoid his spires. Then he's simply zoning the map, but not truly tearing up the enemy team alone, so he appears to be healthy. It's throwing off players' playstyles to the point that counterplay measures are not accurately shown by game data. He has the second-highest win-rate while also maintaining some of the lowest damage dealt, damage taken, and kill amounts in the game. In Shyv's case, game data will probably give insight to the situation, as every Shyv will be a ward-master and secure every possible dragon, but the global effect is still immense with this passive change.

Ohmwrecker, similarly, is absolute junk because it's meant to be an assassination item, but not meant to be overly abusive, and therefore simply open an enemy's tower for a few seconds, but give no damage to the gankers. Therefore, nobody wants to go for this early, not until they amass some damage. However, if they don't go for it early, the only general options are ever going to be go for it while snowballed ahead, or get it while the enemy is snowballed, where once again, the effects are abysmal. So, in short, the item is only viable in a short window early in the game, but will hold back your damage in that part of the game, and hold back your effectiveness. Similarly, Shyv won't feel a single effect from these dragons until she's already sauced a boatload with her allies on a few dragons. She'll get the buff when she doesn't need it to win, and she'll find it impossible to get when she needs it the most. That's the biggest problem.

This sounds to me like: "don't let his team get towers, don't let him get farm". I mean, yeah, it'd work but it's an impossible demand.

Well, impossible in some games, possible or even probable in others, like Shyvana's proposed passives, which is exactly what OP was saying.

You are describing any champion with an ultimate here.

No, I'm talking about game field manipulation specifically, specifying that Shyv's/Morde's/Skarner's are a manipulation on a non-stable game factor, such as dragon presence and recharge times on spires, and similar to unit hop abilities, only the unit-hops are in a much more stable game factor, that being the locations of live units to hop to. Ultimates in general are not such manipulation abilities.

which makes this untrue [that an ability would be forced to be buffed substancially].

It is true. If a unit finds problems making reliable use out of their fenced area, like Skarner, that gets beefed into abusiveness, such as Skarner getting up to 120% MS, 160% AS, and 2% max mana regen without duration while in range of an active Spire. That is some crazy beef, and is only allowed because Riot assumes smart players will stay out of Skarner's area, so they can let him be crazy imposing. They don't note that the zone effect from this can be a conditional thing from game to game, and cause the game to snowball his direction quite consistently.

Yes. The game is centered around bot lane.

It would be if Shyvana was getting all her useful buffs there... I wouldn't gank top until I knew their jungler was leagues away from that dragon, and even then, I'd probably take it. I doubt anyone would do any different, because top simply isn't worth it when the benefits stack so high, hence seasons 4-5 and the seasons of top seclusion and no rift herald.

Dengeden1 votes

{quoted}

Pretty much for this reasoning exactly. They are an important factor in the game. And you build overkill on those, you get champions like Skarner and items like Ohmwrecker. Skarner is a perfectly capable champion in his own right without his energy spires, and the addition of those bring him up to an overboard state in some cases, until you learn to avoid his spires. Then he's simply zoning the map, but not truly tearing up the enemy team alone, so he appears to be healthy. It's throwing off players' playstyles to the point that counterplay measures are not accurately shown by game data.

Zone control is an aspect of jungling and objective control. Again, I don't see the problem with encouraging that. It seems to be just a consistent part as minion hopping.

Without the base stats to back him up, removing spires'd make Skaner's winrate drop. That seems obvious.

He has the second-highest win-rate while also maintaining some of the lowest damage dealt, damage taken, and kill amounts in the game. In Shyv's case, game data will probably give insight to the situation, as every Shyv will be a ward-master and secure every possible dragon, but the global effect is still immense with this passive change.

The low amount of damage dealt and taken is somewhat unsurprising. He's a jungler and his teamfight presence if focused on his ult and CC.

Ohmwrecker, similarly, is absolute junk because it's meant to be an assassination item, but not meant to be overly abusive, and therefore simply open an enemy's tower for a few seconds, but give no damage to the gankers. Therefore, nobody wants to go for this early, not until they amass some damage. However, if they don't go for it early, the only general options are ever going to be go for it while snowballed ahead, or get it while the enemy is snowballed, where once again, the effects are abysmal. So, in short, the item is only viable in a short window early in the game, but will hold back your damage in that part of the game, and hold back your effectiveness.

I feel it's more because there are better options for diving during that time period. Champs like Mundo or Tahm could go for the health damage scaling e.g.

Similarly, Shyv won't feel a single effect from these dragons until she's already sauced a boatload with her allies on a few dragons.

But does she notice her current passive is the question. Or do the few trades she wins, the few extra seconds in teamfights mean too little?

She'll get the buff when she doesn't need it to win, and she'll find it impossible to get when she needs it the most. That's the biggest problem.

Well, impossible in some games, possible or even probable in others, like Shyvana's proposed passives, which is exactly what OP was saying.

Honestly, I don't know. A game where you secure 0 dragons sounds very improbable to me (unless you got stomped or you stomped and neglected drk because of it). Especially on a powerfarmer like Shyv.

No, I'm talking about game field manipulation specifically, specifying that Shyv's/Morde's/Skarner's are a manipulation on a non-stable game factor, such as dragon presence and recharge times on spires, and similar to unit hop abilities, only the unit-hops are in a much more stable game factor, that being the locations of live units to hop to. Ultimates in general are not such manipulation abilities.

Rumble ult and other AoE ults gain a lot strength and reliability if you fight in the jungle but I suppose they have other uses too, albeit lesser ones.

It is true. If a unit finds problems making reliable use out of their fenced area, like Skarner, that gets beefed into abusiveness, such as Skarner getting up to 120% MS, 160% AS, and 2% max mana regen without duration while in range of an active Spire.

That is some crazy beef, and is only allowed because Riot assumes smart players will stay out of Skarner's area, so they can let him be crazy imposing.

There is no way that's the reason. It's more likely they want his base stats and damage to have predictable spikes. Only yes, targeted CC is strong in its own right.

They don't note that the zone effect from this can be a conditional thing from game to game, and cause the game to snowball his direction quite consistently.

It would be if Shyvana was getting all her useful buffs there... I wouldn't gank top until I knew their jungler was leagues away from that dragon, and even then, I'd probably take it. I doubt anyone would do any different, because top simply isn't worth it when the benefits stack so high, hence seasons 4-5 and the seasons of top seclusion and no rift herald.

Tbf, Shyv jungle rarely ganks.

Terchio1 votes

Most of these are minuscule redirections on what was said, and I'm tired of feeding the monster. However, I will address one thing:

It is true. If a unit finds problems making reliable use out of their fenced area, like Skarner, that gets beefed into abusiveness, such as Skarner getting up to 120% MS, 160% AS, and 2% max mana regen without duration while in range of an active Spire.

That is some crazy beef, and is only allowed because Riot assumes smart players will stay out of Skarner's area, so they can let him be crazy imposing.

There is no way that's the reason. It's more likely they want his base stats and damage to have predictable spikes. Only yes, targeted CC is strong in its own right.

He already has a movement speed burst and the 6th highest base damage in the game, used to be first before reworks kept spiking higher and higher, and is in the running for Armor. His base stats are already some of the highest in the game, especially for a champion based around CC like you claim. Then you turn around and give him the game's 2nd highest AS boost, behind Elise and tied with Evelynn (both only 3 seconds), you give him the game's highest movement speed burst, bar none, and they give him Evelynn's Mana Regen passive on top, with no durations to worry about, all on a passive. This is not "beefing up his stats". This is outright making him a guard dog on a leash, which people are apparently figuring out. He doesn't need to actually deal damage to be effective because nobody will be crazy enough to be caught out in his circle.

Dengeden1 votes

Fighters are usually absurdly powerful if you get within range of them though. It makes sense for Skarner to have such high AS and AD since his ult also locks him out of doing anything else, AAs or abilities. (Though I guess he can use his shield beforehand.) And well ... mana regen is kind of pointless if he really is a "dog on a leash" to his spires, he needs to use his abilities for that to do anything, doesn't he?

I'm sorry if I "redirected" the conversation, whatever that implies, I suppose we agreed to disagree on how hard one team can control objectives.

Terchio1 votes

The low amount of damage dealt and taken is somewhat unsurprising. He's a jungler and his teamfight presence if focused on his ult and CC.

Fighters are usually absurdly powerful if you get within range of them though. It makes sense for Skarner to have such high AS and AD since his ult also locks him out of doing anything else, AAs or abilities.

Either he's a fighter, or not a fighter. With his CC, he shouldn't have some of the game's highest bases and steroids. They gave him that much power with a control kit because they literally wanted him to be a guard dog, nothing less. It has come back to bite Riot, because they don't realize the implications of giving champions reliance on zones. I remember back after first rework, he conditionally had maybe 1/4 of his current steroids, with an even harder to land stun. He does not need the stats to suddenly "become a fighter".

Dengeden1 votes

He's a jungler who's a fighter, gimme a break. He can't burst you down or outtrade you in teamfights anymore than Irelia can. He will however do so in skirmishes and 1v1s.

I told you why this guard dog thing is inaccurate. This is further the case because he gets his spire buff from stunning an enemy. (TIL)

If they don't realize what zones are doing they need to pull back on like 90% of their reworks. Most new/reworked items, champions and SR changes have conditional power. Just look at Redemption. You could just as easily make the argument that it's a zone you can avoid.

Predatorator1 votes

the point with skarner is a large portion of his power being tied to his zones, making him dependant on these zones in order to achive his full potential. this is the problem with him. Definitely powerful, but...his gameplay suffers because of that bad passive. i hope i made it clear =). The preseason changes helped him tho, so i'll have to see.

Venomar2 votes

Shy-vana is un-fair.
Riot games is in there.
Standing at the concession.
Plotting their oppression.

Chromatic Eagle2 votes

Not even sure why she's a dragon hunter now anyway.

Okamikazi2 votes

Shyvana : Hey guys got room for one more?

Braum JarvanIV Pantheon Vayne : huh?

awkward

Kingdom Corn1 votes

Please let the patch come out before judging. Numbers can change as the patch is not here yet and also remember plants? Remember how everyone was like O THIS SHIT SUCKS! And now everyone is cool with them? Yeah just let the changes come out and test it for yourself instead of bitching.

Big Lincoln2 votes

I have tested them already; it's a terrible idea.

for starters, I don't know why everyone thinks I'm talking about the numbers; I'm not. I'm talking about the concept itself and why it's proven to be bad for the game. This is the exact sort of thing that is either so strong as to be oppressive, or it's completely negligible. Nobody has countered this; you've only argued the numbers and proven my point, it'll either be bullshit or not worth caring about. Ergo, this is not a good passive.

second, plants are cancer and I'm never going to say they were a good addition. Just because they're less stupid than they were originally doesn't make them not stupid.

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