Now Riot is doing nerfs across the board and are planning to hit ADCs/Supports within the next few patches and now you're complaining? Might as well just have a big mega thread pinned at the top telling the balance team to go fuck themselves at this point lol. You guys are unbelievable.
hhaavviikk21 votespeople probably wouldn't be as upset if first the ADC nerfs came and then the mage nerfs appeared, as it stands this just looks like another nerf to help the ADC's
GayFluffyUnicorn6 votesEspecially if adcs would acually get nerfed but they don't. They get "readjusted" and probably a new item on top of it. Meanwhile bruisers/fighter. Where are our item adjustments and maybe a few new modern items to help us. Oh yeah riot axes already threatened to work on fighters. Yes i say threatened because "their vision very likely differs from that of a fighter main how they are supposed to carry". Yeah no thank you don't want riot to enfore their bullshit vision on fighters. Riot forcing their idea of how league should be played is the very reason why it's so shit right now.
Salron2 votesADC nerfs are specifically being held off for the midseason patch, which is supposed to be the most gamechanging patch of the season
And doing both sets of changes to mages and ADCs at the same time would only make things worse as opposed to working on them seperately with more care put into them
People are blowing this way out of proportion
Somebody Love Me1 votesIsn't 8.9 going to be the midseason patch??????????????????
Bern13 votesTo be fair, if you're planning to hit both, it's odd to not hit them at the same time. If ADCs and supports really are the problem, then nerfing mana mids may make it worse until AD/supp is also hit.
Flawless Fetus7 votesThe mana nerf is hitting supports just as hard, if not harder (because itemization) than the mages.
VoraciousX3 votes[{quoted}](name=ßlended Fetus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NavN7thX,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-04-18T06:25:23.947+0000)
The mana nerf is hitting supports just as hard, if not harder (because itemization) than the mages.
All support items give mana regen out the ass. It's not really gonna hurt them that bad. I've went 
on Karma, spammed Qs like no tomorrow without EVER worrying about my mana even dropping hardly.
ModCaptainMårvelous1 votesThe thing with that is that you don't want incorrect stats. Part of why Riot makes one major change is to see the impact of that one change (preseason is the only time they eschew this). If you nerf mages/adcs in the same patch, you might get the wrong info about why a character is weak: Maybe Brand is weak because of the ADCs being worse and his botlane being not as great, not the mana changes, etc.
Bern1 votesYou're right that changes don't exist in a vacuum, but I disagree heavily that the information gained from only controlling one variable at a time is necessarily useful in the case of League. Sure, in your Brand case, you controlled for the mana changes. And Brand was fine. But if the ADC changes end up hitting Brand indirectly, and Brand needs compensation, did you really learn how to buff him if you learned that he was fine after the mana changes? Maybe buffing his mana is still the right choice, since it also gates his damage in a way, and means he deals enough poke over time to be relevant but also still bursts for the same amount -- which might be a healthier gameplay pattern in the long run anyways.
I think you're wrong here also because changes in League can create feedback loops, such that the effects of two changes implemented together are often much more radical than the mere sum of both changes implemented alone. (Champion+item nerf on the same patch is the classic example, here.) Controlling variables in the way you describe is also ignoring those feedback loops, which -need- to be accounted for to balance correctly.
So honestly, I don't think there's a lot of value in controlling changes like that when it's not even a reliable indicator of the best ways to fix later problems and it's not a good indicator of how a change will play with other changes coming in soon or around the same time, which is arguably more important. I'd rather just see things tested all at once unless the change is also being tested alongside something extremely volatile and universal in its effects that might not ship (e.g., the first proposed round of waveclear changes).
MrHaZeYo13 votesYou could argue that ADC and Support were more problemsum roles and should of been dealt before Mages got nerfed.
Disembark5 votesBut you realize the meta is a huge combination of things?
The reason ADCs/enchanters run so rampant is partially because of how good 5v5 deathball comps are - and this is also enabled by mid lane mages.
If suddenly the meta shifts to a 1 3 1 style (with assassins mid, fighters top) that don't want to teamfight - suddenly you have a meta where ADCs might have stupid fucking damage, but can never apply it.
Suddenly supports like Thresh/Blitz/Alistar/TK become Tier 1 because of their ability to effect sidelanes.
Then without the ability to deal with Assassins (if your support is Thresh/Blitz), you might see Jhin/Ashe for long-range utility.
MrHaZeYo6 votesThe problem is that 5v5 Deathballs aren't going to go away by nerfing Mids and opening assassins because in Pro play they still won't play assassins when ADCs are so strong. They just need to play tanks and utility mids.
Assassins are already strong as is in Solo Queue.
Big Lincoln3 votesthey won't play assassins because they're all outclassed by the meta waveclear mages
Titanium705 votesThat's non sense...
Assassins are not picked because they're High Risk /High Reward. Which noone wants to deal with in pro play since it's abuseable as hell.
The second an Assassins gets picked in pro (outside of JGL) you can be a 100% sure his numbers are so busted it's Low Risk / Free Rewards.
Disembark2 votesAlso because mages are low risk, high reward. Its like, why play Zed when you'll get outlaned, out-sidelaned, out-wavecleared, and out globaled by a Ryze.
Lord Phazanor 1 votesYou could argue that ADC and Support were more problemsum roles and should of been dealt before Mages got nerfed.
Should have*
Edge of Daybreak11 votesIt's because in their minds their class can never be strong or even decent. They can only see them as weak so when you see any nerfs to mages they scream about it because it shatters their views. Hell read most of the threads it's just delusional as hell rhetoric being upvoted by the other delusional players. Then they scream at riot as if their opinions of the game matters at all and they know more about game design and balance because they got upvotes vs the people who have actual data.
As of today we still have mage players saying their class is too weak despite the fact that mid has few remaining non ap mids left and ad mids are almost completely phased out of pro. I'm sitting here like damn if mages are so weak why do we keep seeing nerfs to them every patch yet they still crush the competition afterwards?
Disembark6 votesThank you.
I recently saw a top thread claiming that Zed was Tier 1 in pro play. I don't think a single AD champion has been picked in mid lane in LCS this whole year.
Also they're like "cause mages are waveclear bots", but then why does Kassadin see a bunch of games played while Zed sees 0? Why do we see mages top lane if they're so weak (Vlad/Swain - ACTUAL tier 1 picks top lane in competitive, while Cassio/Ryze also get played top)
They don't give a shit about balance, they should come out and say it: they want mages buffed to the point where they're literally 2 champions in one. They want to be able to do as much damage as the ADC, but also have the same amount of utility as a support + survivability if they had a support.
They wanna be able to build 1k+ health, armour, and get a mana-shield, do more damage than glass cannon champs, while having infinitely more CC/utility in their kits.
Malix Farwin3 votesIt's because in their minds their class can never be strong or even decent. They can only see them as weak so when you see any nerfs to mages they scream about it because it shatters their views. Hell read most of the threads it's just delusional as hell rhetoric being upvoted by the other delusional players. Then they scream at riot as if their opinions of the game matters at all and they know more about game design and balance because they got upvotes vs the people who have actual data.
As of today we still have mage players saying their class is too weak despite the fact that mid has few remaining non ap mids left and ad mids are almost completely phased out of pro. I'm sitting here like damn if mages are so weak why do we keep seeing nerfs to them every patch yet they still crush the competition afterwards?
Couldn't be any more wrong. The core problem is you are taking away tools to deal with the real problem lane(bot).
FrostQueensPlane9 votesCompetitive isn't solo Q, when the fuck are you kids going to stop using that waste of time strawman as an argument for anything at all. They fucking play sion mid in competitive because the competitive meta is so trash, you gonna tell me sion mid is top tier in solo Q too. Yo Galio sitting at a 40% winrate in solo Q, top tier pick in competitive. You gonna climb through diamond with tank galio? Do it.
Salron1 votesSion is a niche competitive midlane pick
Galio is always played mid with full ap or near full ap builds
http://www.gamesoflegends.com/champion/picksandbans.php?id=ALL&league=ALL&season=S8&split=Spring&patch=ALL&role=MID http://www.gamesoflegends.com/champion/stats.php?id=25&tournament=ALL&season=S8&split=Spring
Disembark2 votesMaybe because until recent patches mid lane mages DOMINATED the meta?
Like I'd see people on boards bitching about "ad mids", check stats, and the top 10 picks in mid were still AP mages (in soloQ). Pretty much mage mains don't want anything to be able to kill them in lane, and be able to afk spam their spells with no consequence.
Mordepool10 votesYou would expect more direct nerfs to the problem class. But I have to say this hysteria over the mana shift is completely unwarranted
Akali is SO HOT7 votesConsidering everyone is getting compensation for the changes it's not even that bad
Dark Nephthys10 votes[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NavN7thX,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-04-18T05:51:44.313+0000)
Considering everyone is getting compensation for the changes it's not even that bad
Mages losing 300-400+ mana at level 18 is not much compensation. Yes the lane phase and early/mid game was compensated and should feel roughly the same but its a pretty big drop once the game drags on.
M00ndanc31 votesyes but by than most mages should have at least one mana item, And every mage mana item just got that 500mana attatched with the haste item update.
FrostQueensPlane10 votesPowercreep introduced through new champions.
Hit every mage with mana nerfs.
Yeah that's how you address power creep, but nerfing every character in one specific class because 3 of them are picked in competitive every game.
You should go work for riot and cite this stupid ass post as work experience.
Akali is SO HOT6 votesI'm not sure you actually know what power creep is and how it applies to this game. The power creep you are talking about can really only be seen in games like Yugioh or Hearthstone. The companies that run those games release new cards that are miles ahead of the older cards by comparison and permanently change the game that way with almost no feasible way to tune it down. To see that in League, Riot would have to release champions at a rate higher than they did when the game was first made. I don't see anywhere in pro play or higher elos where the only good champions are the new ones. Janna has been in the game since the beginning and is still overpowered. Sion's rework was over a year ago and he's still really good. Skarner is a contested pick in pro play last I checked. Trundle, Morg, Cho, Olaf, and Alistar all see a lot of pro play and they are all old as fuck.
I don't think you even read my post because I specifically said that they are hitting mages next patch and are going to be hitting ADCs/Supports within the next couple following patches. So many people on this board are completely delusional about what the real problems in this game are.
Ahristocats1 voteslol rekt
Malix Farwin8 votesThe problem OP is that the power creep is not with the mages and even if it were, ADCs should be hit first not the other way around. Nerfing mages just means no one will pick them till ADCs are nerfed(if they get nerfed and if history is a good indicator they will likely get buffed instead.).
Puppet33r5 votesBecause this "powercreep" is only taken away from one role at a time letting other roles run rampart. Not to mention how hard they hit the mages. I can somewhat understand the whole mana rebalancing thing they decided on. Even though at the current state of the game mages not running oom quite frankly feels just a part of the course since most of the other roles don't. And it is a scary thought that they are gonna be the only ones who will have that weakness(since riot designers a long time ago decided to make champions with 0 clear abusable weaknesses). But hitting tear items on so many avenues at the same time seems a little ridiculous. Especially its price tag feels just excessive.
Never have been entire roles hit that hard in one patch...ever. It has been known that zeal items for adcs are stupid cheap for what they offer for a long time. And yet 0 changes. No one is asking a definitive changes immediately but a small and simple price increase or small stats nerf to keep them in check would've done wonders for game health. Same with support items. And yet it's just the mages who are gonna have take it for the team for the next 3-5 patches at the very least.
T4underbolt4 votesWho the hell is complaining? If you mean that mages get hit by mana nerfs then yeah. Because those changes should apply to everyone not only mages. not mentioning they had a lot of time to nerf adcs/supports and tanks but they are too biased for that. Very strange that they can make big changes for everyone else if it regards nerfs, but when it comes to nerfs for the roles/champs they chosen to be freelo, suddenly those changes take months or years hmm...
Vekkna4 votesIt's funny that you think the ADC midseason patch will actually nerf them. Idk where you've been for the past 2 years.
AMYS GRAVE4 votesNow Riot is doing nerfs across the board
Source? I've seen nerfs to one class, but nothing that could be considered "nerfs across the board".
rtbf2216514125 votesSource? I've seen nerfs to one class, but nothing that could be considered "nerfs across the board".
All I've seen is buffs for AD and nerfs for anything AP (Including tanks)
FebruAhri4 votesthe problem isnt that riot is doing something against powercreep
the problem is that the already weakest class in the game by far is gutted is the problem. there will literally never be a good idea to play a mage at all, playing a mage would be actual inting with these changes
Akali is SO HOT3 votesMages are far away from the worst class. That title would probably go to fighters atm
Tzuyu Is My Bias4 votesThe point is that while everything might need a nerf and hopefully everything does get nerfed, their priorities are hot garbage.
Jofeyy4 votesThey're nerfing the wrong things in the wrong order. That's why.
Altiverse3 votesWhat complaining? I'm very much pleased with any nerfs involved.
The only complaining I see is regarding the mage mana, which no one asked for nor will it contribute towards lowering the powercreep, since they (as everyone else) will still be able to deal a shitton of damage before any reaction or strategic counterplay can be done. It's not as if teamfights last long enough for them to need mana for multiple rotations anyway.
Myrmiron3 votesActually I'm celebrating a little because Riot stated that their goal for the next X patches is to make it possible for fed fighters to carry.
Malix Farwin3 votesActually I'm celebrating a little because Riot stated that their goal for the next X patches is to make it possible for fed fighters to carry.
GL with that because fed Mages can't even carry.
GayFluffyUnicorn2 votesMaybe you should read it again. He already threatened that their vision very likely differs from that of a fighter main on how to carry. Just wait until fighters get reworked into tanks and we carry by peeling the adc. Or fighter items getting reworked into full dmg items so we just get blown up in 0,25 seconds in a teamfight. "haHAA you wanted to carry here is the dmg haHAA". Don't trust riot on that.
Myrmiron1 votesI'm happy with them admitting that there's a problem with the impact of fighters for the time being. Fighters shouldn't blow up ADCs without any counterplay, but they also should be a threat to be considered. Maybe buffing armor and MR (directly OR indirectly) is the answer here, I'm sure Riot will do their best to make fighter players feel relevant again.
Melledoneus2 votes[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NavN7thX,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-18T05:43:04.103+0000)
Might as well just have a big mega thread pinned at the top telling the balance team to go fuck themselves at this point lol.
https://media1.tenor.com/images/656bfac179db0fee1983726a428d1626/tenor.gif?itemid=9319693
I'll get to work immediately.
######Kappa.
rtbf2216514122 votesTo be fair, Magic Resist hard counters mages and they barely do any burst to begin with compared to ADC's. (Who can build attack speed I may add) Since what season has AD been better than AP? Since S6? S7?
Handin Out Naps2 votesYou've been here a long time, you know how the mage mains work. And there are a lot of them so there is always a lot of complaining, and random opinions like "mages arent meta lol".
Metal Janna2 votes"You guys have been complaining about powercreep since the start of the season" I have been complaining about overall powercreep. The kind that leads to super aggressive plays bot because trying to CS with you in the lane is just not worth it for your opponents so they're forced to try to kill you in order to farm safely. Yeah my support Orianna now does way more damage but so does my adc, their adc, their freakin' Alistar, and both junglers, either of which could decide the lane with 2 successful ganks early in the game. **And this is the problem. ** The game was more fun when everyone did less damage, lane phase lasted longer, and wearing the enemy laners down with chip damage was a viable strategy. Now it's burst or be bursted, feast or famine.
Making mana more restrictive for mages alone does nothing to address overall powercreep. They still do the same damage even if their usefulness has been pared back by by tighter mana constraints. It's the damage people like me are upset about.
Sona Ping2 votes[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NavN7thX,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-18T05:43:04.103+0000)
Now Riot is doing nerfs across the board and are planning to hit ADCs/Supports within the next few patches and now you're complaining? Might as well just have a big mega thread pinned at the top telling the balance team to go fuck themselves at this point lol. You guys are unbelievable.
It's not likes it's unfair. There's a difference between asking for nerfs and nerfing the wrong thing.
They're not nerfing runes, for one.
Athenes Lulu1 votesthey just want ADCs to be removed from the game completely kappa
this is boards for u :^)
