I think the tank update missed the mark on making them 'niche'

Big Lincoln··16 votes·1,275 views

Which I think is most evident in the tank rework with Maokai. his old ult, while generally powerful, was unique to him and gave him a strength other tanks didn't have-- isn't that what a niche is? His new ult doesn't really give that same 'reason' to pick him, and honestly i would argue that he's more generalized than he is currently, since crowd control is a very desirable thing to have. Likewise I feel like the new Zac ult just puts Skarner even further out of business, at least on paper.

I think Maokai is getting the worst deal of the 3 kit-wise, but overall I don't really see what new niche the tanks are getting beyond being better at applying CC -- they just vary a little more in how they do it.

31 Comments

TheHappyReaperz4 votes

Maokai's old ult didn't really give him strengths other tanks lacked, it just made him a better tank. There wasn't a situation where Mao's old ult wouldn't be useful.

Big Lincoln5 votes

being able to directly reduce the damage your whole team takes from all sources is something that other tanks lack. the only exception is Shen being able to nullify AAs entirely in his zone

i would have made maokai's ult a damage redirection to himself instead of just plain reduction for all so that he's less of "I become a better tank" like you said, but it was still more unique to him.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

i like this idea... but with one small change if it dont reduce damage to teammates (like his current ult) have like ms/as debuff if you are in the circle. not big just something so even if it dont directly reduce damage taken to allies... it would provide like an frozeheart aura with in the circle of his ult .

oSEXYPLATYPUSo3 votes

maokai legit got fawked in the rework... riot completely missed the mark. the champ lost his identity as the anti carry by being the defensive tank who could engage and be a great team fighter. his new ult is a joke. his E getting % hp damage on it makes his overall damage go way down because its based on if you place in a bush and then if it hits an enemy which you have no control over (since they took the splash damage off of it 2 patches ago) and now his W has just base magic damage but the the slow travel time on it worst. his Q isnt really changed but the change to his passive is gonna make it worst for him to sustain in lane. he cant go full tank any more because of changes , but if he dont and goes bruiser he has less damage now... so either way he is fawked

thanks rito

Ralanr2 votes

I think the %health damage is there regardless of bush.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

it is bonus if its in a bush ...

Ralanr1 votes

The bonus is extra overtime damage (more sapling explosions).

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

its bonus damage if its in a bush and last long if in a bush ... the bonus damage is dot...

Ralanr1 votes

It's %health damage regardless though.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

never said it dont have that damage

i said the % hp damage got put on E

Ralanr1 votes

Which I'm personally fine with. Makes it less reliable.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

lol they take away the damage reduction on his ult ... take damage and make it unreliable change his passive and give him possibly the worst ult in game and its ok by you ?

so he is less tanky, and has less damage, and less effectiveness as a tank

Ralanr1 votes

I never said I was ok with everything they did. Just swapping his %health damage to a more unreliable ability.

Personally I think his new ult moves much too slow for an engage tool. Better as anti engage

Quepha3 votes

Guess it's a failure since Big Lincoln has declared it as such with all that experience he's had playing them on live servers

Big Lincoln5 votes

what is the argument here? i didn't say anything about balance, i'm talking purely about their kits. you don't need to play them in your bronze 1 games to see what their kits offer.

Quepha3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NZExARxs,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-04-24T00:34:53.323+0000)

you don't need to play them in your bronze 1 games to see what their kits offer.

This is a lie, I can't count the times where playing a kit in a game gave me a different impression than what I got from reading it.

Slythion3 votes

if we're talking about failure, your comment takes the win

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

I'm honestly pretty happy with Zac's. It adds A LOT more skill expression to his kit, even if his ult is copy-and-paste.

I agree on Maokai's and Sejuani's compeltely though. Sejuani in particular is a monstrosity. Her Frost armor looks HORRIBLE, and the one new fun looking part of her kit, the W, is dumb af.

Big Lincoln2 votes

I like Zac's Q a lot more than I like his R, but I may just need to play him more to get a better feel for it. My main gripe is that their intention to make it so that they have unique strengths does not feel very clear here. When I ask 'what would make me pick X champion over the other two' I don't come up with anything, because most of their strengths are ultimately the same -- they have lockdown. I suspect that the reworks once they hit live will boil down to who has the best CC, or who has the best CC to damage ratio.

Teridax682 votes

I can agree with this: while the reworks did add some differentiation on the basic abilities, we started with three very different champions, i.e. a Warden with team-wide damage absorption, a disruptor tank with lots of AoE knockback, and a disruptor/juggernaut hybrid, and ended up with three initiator tanks who all set up engages for their team by ulting and working from there, which in itself mirrors the likes of Amumu, Malphite, Sion, etc. Adding to this the fact that, in spite of promises to reduce tank damage, the Big Three have either had their nukes mostly unchanged, or had more added onto them (i.e. Sejuani's shatter damage), it also feels like many of these tanks are only a few number tweaks away from being divers with more CC.

With Maokai specifically, I'm disappointed that his ult got reworked completely into basically a slower Nami ult, because I think there was potential in his old one: the AoE damage reduction wasn't particularly visible, but that should have been an opportunity to amp up the effect and give it a suitably high cooldown, something Mao always lacked: if his ult were to redirect all harmful spells in an area towards himself, that would totally cement his role as an aggressive Warden (he'd very deliberately put himself in harm's way to protect his team), while giving him the flexibility he needed to either stick around the back line or advance to intercept the enemy front line. It would also add some extra skill-based gameplay to his W untargetability (untargetability is pretty much the last form of damage avoidance you'd want to give to a tank, as it means projectiles and enemies can pass through you to hit your allies), by allowing him to nullify some especially dangerous spells entirely with his dash mid-ult.

Eedat1 votes

his old ult, while generally powerful, was unique to him and gave him a strength other tanks didn't have

Damage reduction isnt niche. Thats about the most boring generic tank stat period.

Big Lincoln3 votes

neither is crowd control

Eedat1 votes

And?

Big Lincoln1 votes

trading one generic thing for another, how does that make a character niche? I want to know what makes these new tanks unique from each other, when their ultimate goal is still the same -- hold an enemy down with crowd control.

i would say that Maokai providing defenses for his team is more unique, as far as what tanks do, than providing more crowd control, which is already a standard for tanks, and several other groups.

Eedat2 votes

crowd control is not niche. The way its applied is. For example, Mao's W is about as generic as it gets. His new ult, however, has a lot of zone control and intimidation. Mao's old R was nothing but tank stats. The active damage was negligable and the "zone" around him didn't really mean anything.

This made old Mao easily one of the easiest, most braindead champs in the game. All he did was literally pop R then W-Q a carry and walk around until his cooldowns came back up.

His new kit shares some of the same problems, but at least now he has something more dynamic to contribute.

Troll for Trump1 votes

HIs old ult was the only ult that would give everyone %dmg reduction.

HIs W is the only targeted CC among tanks

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Damage reduction isnt niche. Thats about the most boring generic tank stat period.

its still true, that instead of giving him a nami ult with a new skin and turn him into a aoe cc tank like almost every other tank out there, they could have made his current ult a bit more interesting.

like why not build on the aoe damage reduction, and add more depth to the ability, instead of just scrapping it and giving him a generic aoe cc?

like what if he had to literally root himself in the ground to slowly expand a massive aoe effect of expanding roots around him in which he redirects damage damage from his teammates to himself? trading mobility for defense.

they just could have done more with his current ult.

KayleeT1 votes

Can we see it in practice with a sizable sample before we deduce anything ?

doodlebob6661 votes

im someone who has never played maokai aside from ranked this season and have managed to get rank 7 and a near 70% winrate with him using his current kit. His old ult was flat out broken if used properly but would still give massive benefit if it was miss used. The new one seems weird to me and i feel like its atleast a bit out of place, but his old one was a balancing nightmare, since it made him tankier than any other champion in the game while requiring little to no decision making skill to get value out of it.

Because of his old ult i could pick maokai into any team comp and not have to worry about not being able to tank them since the damage reduction was effective against all forms of damage be it percent health, magic or physical, with only true damage being an actaully issue to deal with.

Also i feel like the passive change is going to have a bigger impact than the new ult, since it makes him even more of a nightmare to champs like ryze, cassio, ezreal and other caster type champions. It makes him a near impossible boundary for them to kill, while making him weaker against champs like ashe or tristana who wouldn't really be spamming abilities to try and kill him

GrandpaTheGreat1 votes

His old ult was damage reduction+damage, and you just kind of popped it whenever you were fighting, there was never a time where the stars alined perfectly for it nor was it ever bad. It was mainly just stats and damage that were nice whenever you got in a big fight. Yes it was iconic, but it didn't create a niche so much as give him general power.

This new ult however is so darn slow that you need to plan ahead, and when picking him you have to consider "Will this game even give me a moment where I can feasibly land this thing?".

You can't really engage with it, and it can even be blocked by an opposing frontline. How much you can flank, whether the opponent will be diving your backline much, how to deal with the potential of it being blocked or dodged, all these are puzzles to solve when you consider picking him and when playing him. Yes its CC, but its application is situational.

If you look at their subclasses list, the two tank classes (Vanguards and Wardens) already are classified by having CC, so differentiating how they go about that CC is the main way to give them niches.

Legacy Hydralpha1 votes

Maokai seems to have the least prominent niche, but I think one's there. He seems good against mages, in a sense that their spell casts brings his heal up sooner and mages tend to be immobile, making it a bit harder for them to avoid saplings and ult.

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