To put things in perspective, Zoe is a nightmare in balance.

KillerShim·Jul 21, 2018·33 votes·11,373 views

Now, I'm not the one to say something is OP and what isn't OP, I'm just pointing out facts here. I'm just going to compare 2 champions that both go mid lane that have a "similar ability".

Zoe's W: Has the potential of hitting a champion 3 times via 3 bolts.

Ahri's W: Has the potential of hitting a champion 3 times via 3 bolts.

Seems fair, right? Except...

PASSIVE - SPELL THIEF: Whenever enemy champions cast a Spells icon summoner spell or item active, they drop the corresponding Spell Shard onto the ground that grants Sight icon sight over a 100-radius area and remains for 40 seconds. Some enemy Minions Killed icon minions spawn with random Spell Shards that only drop to the ground for 20 seconds if killed by Zoe.

Collecting a Spell Shard allows Zoe to activate Spell Thief within the next 60 seconds. She can replace her current Spell Thief active by moving directly onto another Spell Shard.

ACTIVE: Zoe mimics the active of the collected Spell Shard.

PASSIVE - WHEEEEE: Casting Spell Thief or one of her own summoner spells grants Zoe Movement speed icon bonus movement speed for the next few seconds, and summons three bubbles that orbit her for the next 10 seconds. The bubbles autonomously hurl themselves at the nearest enemy in range, prioritizing her attack target, dealing magic damage.

75 / 105 / 135 / 165 / 195 (+ 55% AP)

Zoe gets TWO passives and an active in the same ability, ON TOP of doing more damage alone, gets 30-70% bonus movement speed for 2-3 seconds (Scaling by level), takes summoner spells that you use, and uses them against you, as well as items, and is an RNG mess in lane.

What does Ahri's W do in comparison you may ask?

ACTIVE: Ahri summons three spectral flames which orbit her for up to 5 seconds.

Flames prioritize champions hit by Charm Charm or any enemy hit by Ahri's last basic attack, within 3 seconds and Range icon 725 range.

After 0.25 seconds, each flame targets a prioritized enemy, or after 0.4 seconds pursues the closest visible enemy in range, prioritizing champions, then the target of Ahri's last basic attack, dealing magic damage.

MAGIC DAMAGE: 40 / 65 / 90 / 115 / 140 (+ 30% AP) Multiple flames can hit the same target, with each flame beyond the first dealing 30% damage.

Ok, so not only does Zoe's W do more damage, but Ahri's W does less damage if more than one gets proccd on an enemy champion. They're basically the same ability in concept, yet Zoe's got like 7 other things going for her.

This is why people are bitching about her, of course I know there's other problems like how she can nuke you from 5 screens away, has true damage, has no real cooldowns/mana costs and has a sheen in her passive, but this was just an example.

101 Comments

LatoyaFromTheBXJul 21, 201823 votes

so is Yasuo Still is

Ayanami3rdJul 21, 201825 votes

^ This. You can still dodge most of Zoe's shit, but you can't punish a Yasuo for playing bad because he has a dozen get-out-of-jail-free cards in his kit - and even if he is punished, he will come back after 2 items no matter if he is 0/10/0.

KillerShimJul 21, 201813 votes

Ironic how they're both designed by the same individual.

Ayanami3rdJul 21, 201812 votes

Enjoy reworked Akali.

AugustHeatHazeJul 22, 20182 votes

just gona link to this whenever someone trashes him

P0IS0N IVYJul 22, 20187 votes

And people trash him for good reason. CertainlyT is a good designer. He creates very unique abilities. The problem is that an immensely large majority of champions cannot keep up with his overloaded kits and it becomes frustrating to play against those champs and a nightmare to balance. I dislike most of the champions he's designed as well, but I don't necessarily think they're OP. If every single champion was designed by CertainlyT, it'd be great. But as it stands right now we get his super unique annoying af kits, and then have really lacking ones that just can't compete.

AugustHeatHazeJul 22, 20182 votes

people trash him for good reason

understandable but not good, why i linked the thing i did.

basically git gud

ArakadiaJul 22, 20182 votes

Git gud doesn't fix the fact that many of CertainlyT's designs aren't meant for this version of League of Legends and generate way more hate than usual.

BLIGHTBRINGERJul 22, 20181 votes

It's funny because in that clip that you provided, he stated that everyone just needs to adapt to their ability designs but then Scarra on stream when he played as Lissandra against Zoe said "where did my health go she didn't even land an ability" or something along those lines.

AugustHeatHazeJul 22, 20181 votes

yes? So? I never said zoe cant be op, any champ can be op, he said that when zoe first came out the hero was op in the video i linked, im not denying that and i can agree with that, doesn't mean the design is bad inherently like all of yall are all saying, its not, its a good design, zoes a good hero. Like they say "if you're complaining about a champion that isn't overpowered, then get good."

heres another link

"Certainlyt gets a lot of hate, but I love the guy and hope he keeps making champs/reworks for the foreseeable future. The new akali looks amazing."

yall are all mad because two pros disagree with you and think you just need to get good lol, T's designs aren't inherently OP.

BLIGHTBRINGERJul 23, 20181 votes

I never personally said that I found CT's champ designs OP, in fact I like them. But I was trying to suggest that some of those Pro players (scarra in this case) don't always stick to their word.

AugustHeatHazeJul 23, 20181 votes

he did though? hes not being inconsistent, i explained how.

P0IS0N IVYJul 25, 20181 votes

I feel like you didn't read my post at all if you think "git gud" is the issue.

Anin777Jul 22, 20182 votes

If you can't punish a Yasuo for playing bad, you're bad. Period. No argument needed.

Ayanami3rdJul 22, 20181 votes

"If you can't hit me with your gun in the chest while I'm wearing an impenetrable vest, you are bad."

Okay.

Actually, I am able to defeat Yasuo easily, but only If I get to counter-pick him with something that at least is unaffected by his windwall. As soon as I can get around his horribly designed kit, he's just a victim.

AugustHeatHazeJul 22, 20181 votes

"It's maybe harder to beat certain champions than other champions, and because of that, people just complain. All the time, about all these champions, and the people saying this are just not good players."

thats what you are doing right now....

now if someone wants to point me towards where scarra takes this back, thats cool, but i dont think he is going to do that because he made a positive twitter post about yas's designer on the 16th...

tdlr: yall need to gid gud and stop complaining so much, its understandable to be frustrated but you take it too far, top level players agree with this.

Nausicäa Jul 21, 201815 votes

This thread is literally full of ignorance and the only people upvoting this are Zoe hating circle jerkers.

You're comparing one ability vs another and drawing conclusions about balance when its not a valid comparison. You have to compare kit vs kit.

Zoe has 0 damage on her ultimate so obviously she needs more power in her basic abilities to function as a burst mage. Ahri is a champion with 3 dashes on her uiltimate which is extremely powerful.

Saying Zoe is op because her W is similar and better than Ahri's is literally idiotic. As i pointed out Zoe effectively has 0 damage on her ult while Ahri has not only damage but extremely powerful mobility.

KillerShimJul 22, 20186 votes

When did I ever come off as aggressive? Why are you being no negative-minded about an opinion that I've stated? There's no need for that.

Nausicäa Jul 22, 20186 votes

Yes, write some random off topic response and ignore the argument that completely invalidates your thread.

Simply because you have an opinion doesnt mean it has merit or has any truth value, particularly if its based upon false information and bad reasoning.

KillerShimJul 22, 20185 votes

Simply because you have an opinion doesnt mean it has merit or has any truth value, particularly if its based upon false information and bad reasoning.

This is like saying I prefer Superman over Batman, does that make me a fucking idiot? No, does it make me a "circle jerker"? No, does it invalidate anything I say? No, it's called an opinion or a biased statement. You don't just come off as a dickhead because you don't agree with the post, that proclaims psychotic traits.

Opinion: the beliefs or views of a large number or majority of people about a particular thing. An estimation of the quality or worth of someone or something.

Doesn't mean it's right, nor wrong. It's an opinion, quit being a jerk for reason because you don't agree with my statement. The boards are here for civil, constructive discussions, not to bash people because their thoughts and believes don't correlate with yours.

Rathar DashingJul 22, 20188 votes

To be fair, liking Superman more than Batman does make you a fucking idiot.

KillerShimJul 22, 20182 votes

It was an example. Deadpool over Nightcrawler, Cyclops over Wolverine, etc. Don't nitpick.

Rathar DashingJul 22, 20181 votes

It was a joke. Have a sense of humor. :P

KillerShimJul 22, 20182 votes

Oh, my bad homie. (:

Rathar DashingJul 22, 20182 votes

All good buddy. :D

Nausicäa Jul 22, 20181 votes

We arent talking about a subjective personal preference, we are talking about champion balance which aims to make things relatively fair and situationally equal in strength, not decide which champion you like best.
You can have an opinion and it can be wrong. SHOCKER.
How is presenting an argument that disagrees with your conclusion 'bashing' ?

Comparing one ability to another and claiming inbalance is literally ignorant. This game is not balanced around single abilities but champion kits as a whole. So yes, your reasoning and way of thinking is naive

KillerShimJul 22, 20182 votes

We arent talking about a subjective personal preference, we are talking about champion balance which aims to make things relatively fair and situationally equal in strength, not decide which champion you like best.

I never stated that I preferred one champion over the other, I simply compared 2 abilities from different champions. Also, it is subjective preference, for I feel like she needs to be toned down. This doesn't mean that I'm right about thinking that she's "strong", it's simply a biased proclamation.

You can have an opinion and it can be wrong. SHOCKER.

But I never said I was right? You're arguing with yourself on this.

How is presenting an argument that disagrees with your conclusion 'bashing' ?

"This thread is literally full of ignorance and the only people upvoting this are Zoe hating circle jerkers". That's bashing the community who is siding with me, also remarking "Saying Zoe is op because her W is similar and better than Ahri's is literally idiotic.", is completely un-needed.

So yes, your reasoning and way of thinking is naive

It was merely an example, that doesn't make my argument lacking in experience.

wildfox99Jul 22, 20182 votes

ahri has no damage in her passive tho

anyway zoe's uptimes are way higher than her (both need to engage with R E,but zoe's ult have a basic ability CD),also ahri can't trade you dashing in and then dashing out like nothing has happened

ahri is just more forgiving on her positioning (if you fk up),for all the other things zoe is just better

chipndip1Jul 22, 20183 votes

{quoted}

anyway zoe's uptimes are way higher than her (both need to engage with R E,but zoe's ult have a basic ability CD),also ahri can't trade you dashing in and then dashing out like nothing has happened

That's extremely ignorant, is it not?

wildfox99Jul 24, 20181 votes

so ahri have a really low CD ult like Kassadin ,that's what you are saying?

how you can poke someone with a 110 sec ability? your enemy have to be really bad...

BârdJul 22, 20188 votes

This is literally just what Hashinshin said. You know, the guy who loses his shit whenever something is added to the game that he can't beat by picking Jax and running directly at it?

But fine. Lets ignore that for a moment.

An activation of Spell Thief is, without a doubt, stronger than an activation of Fox Fire. Now, lets actually look at some fucking context.

In order to proc Spell Thief, a Zoe will have to use one of the following.

Her own flash (300 second CD)
Hexflash (20 second CD, unavailable in combat, requires Zoe to go into Inspiration)
Her own Ignite (210 second CD)
A bubble dropped from a creep (One every couple minutes, and you have to be in lanes)
A bubble dropped by an enemy champion (Everywhere in teamfights, not so much otherwise)

In order to proc Fox Fire, Ahri has to use the following

40 mana
Fox Fire (5 second CD at max rank)

Spell Thief takes a minimum of ~1.5 seconds deal its full 195 (+55% AP) magic damage. Fox Fire takes a minimum of 0.25 seconds to deal its full 224 (+48% AP) magic damage.

Zoe has Paddle Star, a spell with a pretty pitiful AoE. Her waveclear is trash, meaning she has shit lane control. Ahri has Orb of Deception, a spell that is pretty damn good for clearing waves, giving her control.

Zoe has Portal Jump, a spell that looks like it should be a basic ability that you max last, as her ultimate. Ahri has Spirit Rush, an actual ultimate.

Anin777Jul 22, 20181 votes

I see you didn't mention the true dmg bubble buddy. You know that alone defies any comparison to Ahri's kit. Move on.

chipndip1Jul 22, 20184 votes

I see you didn't mention the true damage on Ahri's Q buddy. You know...you should land her Q's backspin more often so you'd realize there's true damage on Ahri's Q. Move on.

Anin777Jul 22, 20181 votes

Because it can be dodged? Because it's nowhere near Zoes? Zoe can literally deal over 700 True dmg. Ahri? 300 if you're really fed? Move on m8.

chipndip1Jul 22, 20185 votes

{quoted}

Because it can be dodged?

In that same breath, wtf stops you from dodging Zoe's E?

And Zoe's true damage is only there to properly apply double the damage of what she dealt to trigger the damage, since it's supposed to double her damage output up to a cap. Ahri's true damage, meanwhile, is simply a true damage variation of whatever damage she did off the initial projectile on her Q.

Anin777Jul 23, 20181 votes

Because the true dmg only applies AFTER it hits? [zombie-brand-facepalm]

chipndip1Jul 23, 20181 votes

...you mean like any damage in this game?

BârdJul 22, 20183 votes

The "true dmg bubble"?

You mean the pop?

The thing that deals "true damage" equal to the post mitigation damage dealt by the attack that proc'd it, up to the cap?

The pop is true damage in name only. If they were woken up by physical damage, the pop will have already been reduced by armor. If they were woken up by magic damage, the pop will have already been reduced by magic resist. The only time it's possible for the pop to bypass the target's resistances is if the sleep is popped by a true damage effect.

Anin777Jul 23, 20181 votes

https://youtu.be/6hH15_7btp0

That wasn't true dmg I just saw there?

BârdJul 23, 20181 votes

Are you literate?

Anin777Jul 23, 20181 votes

No point going further. Once you proceed with ad hominem, you've already lost. good bye.

BârdJul 24, 20181 votes

I ask only because your questions only have a couple explanations