Why are junglers being punished for holding lanes?

KillerShim·Jul 24, 2018·66 votes·23,435 views

Just played a game where my mid lane Lux died to zed level 4, me having my red smite, I went to cover mid, and I have to say, getting 4 gold per caster minion is really pushing it on the context of "why even bother". I understand that funneling wasn't really fun to watch via competitive play, and could really snowball a game in about 10 minutes, but come on now. You're telling me that I'm going to be punished as a jungler because you couldn't come up with a legitimate way of breaking this funneling system?

At this point, I would rather just watch the mid tower fall to the ground if it means that I can stay relevant in the game, getting 12 gold total from the back line of minions in comparison to 100 gold from the scuttle crab is in no debate for me.

84 Comments

BlåbæretJul 24, 201813 votes

Lmao, the balance team is so out of touch with their own game it's just unreal.

NovalasJul 24, 201813 votes

We're exploring other options to alleviate the jungler pangs related to Monster Hunter. One option, which doesn't quite solve the holding waves issue, is that on takedown you receive normal gold from minions for 30 seconds.

ModThe DjinnJul 24, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Novalas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IMEFQRyh,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-07-24T18:50:25.120+0000)We're exploring other options to alleviate the jungler pangs related to Monster Hunter. One option, which doesn't quite solve the holding waves issue, is that on takedown you receive normal gold from minions for 30 seconds.

While I get this, it seems like this actually just makes the solution more obtuse. Although it's a tricky situation that might get worse before it gets better, as I'm struggling to think of simple alternatives that might assist in solving the problem.

One option might be to make an "Hunting" buff that lasts for X amount of time after killing a Jungle monster (or when in the jungle), that needs to fall off before the character gets full gold? It would allow you to cover a lane and farm a bit if you needed to really stay in lane, but would give you some tuning time to balance it with? But that seems like something someone would figure out how to game.

Hm. Tough one. :D

KyunseiJul 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Novalas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IMEFQRyh,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-07-24T18:50:25.120+0000)

We're exploring other options to alleviate the jungler pangs related to Monster Hunter. One option, which doesn't quite solve the holding waves issue, is that on takedown you receive normal gold from minions for 30 seconds.

Have you thought on removing the +200 bonus exp on first camp cleared, reduce damage of lv 2 camps spawn by around 40% and make jungle spawn at 2min, so that you can't camp then go to lane to catch creeps ?

sleepysithlordJul 24, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Novalas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IMEFQRyh,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-07-24T18:50:25.120+0000)

We're exploring other options to alleviate the jungler pangs related to Monster Hunter. One option, which doesn't quite solve the holding waves issue, is that on takedown you receive normal gold from minions for 30 seconds.

Just make it a radius thing? If jungler is alone and holding the wave --normal gold and xp.

If jungle has a leash bitch following him around -- no funnel for you.

Also, why doesnt the community just come together and int funnellers? Its up to us as players to decide what are and are not legitimate strategies. By not inting the funnellers, we are just as much a part of the problem

VeraskaJul 24, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Novalas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IMEFQRyh,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-07-24T18:50:25.120+0000)

We're exploring other options to alleviate the jungler pangs related to Monster Hunter. One option, which doesn't quite solve the holding waves issue, is that on takedown you receive normal gold from minions for 30 seconds.

i would appreciate this a lot, it sucks when you wanna play a jungler that can really take over games (rengar, kha'zix kayn) and you kinda shoot yourself in the foot if you don't go for warrior enchant (which sucks on a lot of junglers who'd rather just skip it to go for duskblade)

ThefrostyvikingJul 24, 20183 votes

Make it so the one holding the jungle item gets this current amount of gold if a teammember is anywhere near the lane minions?

That prevents 2 people teaming up to shove the wave and funnel gold into either one whist still letting a lone jungler farm the wave.

Up to a point in the game at least, wouldnt that work?

Slice n Dice emJul 24, 20186 votes

You are looking for complicated solutions for simple problems. What was the cause of jungle funneling? Jungle funneling didn't exist before scuttle changes. All you have to do is revert the scuttle change and lower the initial exp from the jungle camps and lower their spawn time.

BestPudgeNAJul 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slice n Dice em,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IMEFQRyh,comment-id=000c0007,timestamp=2018-07-24T21:37:48.046+0000)

You are looking for complicated solutions for simple problems. What was the cause of jungle funneling? Jungle funneling didn't exist before scuttle changes. All you have to do is revert the scuttle change and lower the initial exp from the jungle camps and lower their spawn time.

Revert the scuttle changes and XP changes. Reverting the scuttle changes doesn't magically make junglers a real role again. It doesn't magically make it so they have an impact on the early game and can punish the other team for AFK power farming.

SpecterVonBarenJul 25, 20181 votes

Correlation is not causation.

Slice n Dice emJul 25, 20183 votes

then you find me a reason? Tell me why there was no funnel before? There was kayle-Yi funnel strategy in season 5-6-7 but no one did any funnel except that because it was inefficient. Scuttle changes resulted in following:

Junglers were lower exp than laners.
Scuttle became a big source of exp + gold.

Now these two changes make the funnel viable. No jungler would contest a 1 v 2 vs funnel and a laner would react late(even in pro scene) to scuttle respawn because he has to clear the already pushed wave. Funneling became efficient because of scuttle, you literally deny enemy jungler huge amount of exp. Sure enemy jungler could try to steal your camps, but that would result him in investing his time(not ganking a lane) in your jungle, which just benefits funnel.

If they reverted scuttle changes and made lower jungle spawn time and lower exp. Junglers would be forced to jungle to keep up in exp. Funneling would die because it takes a lot of time to move across the map to clear every camp. and since there wouldn't be any scuttle for huge exp, it wouldn't be worth to funnel.

Correlation is not causation.

But here it is. Explain to me if I am wrong in the deduction on why my proposed changes wouldn't work. It was working for 7 season no? when we literally didn't see any funnel.

SpecterVonBarenJul 25, 20181 votes

And what6 exactly would stop people from using the funnel strategy without the Skuttle changes?

Lower XP has nothing to do with it and Skuttle giving less gold and XP before doesn't stop a Master YI from going to his Taric mid's farm in mid lane and taking all of it so that he's eventually 3 items ahead of everybody.

Slice n Dice emJul 25, 20182 votes

I guess you didnt bother to read. Read again, It's not just scuttle changes, its decreasing spawn time + lower initial exp from the jungle camps.

The picture here is what does the enemy jungler gains and what does the funnel loses.

SpecterVonBarenJul 25, 20181 votes

None of those things prevented this funnel strategy from being used before. They may have led to someone coming up with and trying the strategy but now that it's known to be possible there's nothing that would stop it from being used even without the long monster spawns or skuttle changes.

DemainaNyxJul 24, 20182 votes

My suggestion is add that if you are the only allied champion in the lane (getting exp), you get the full gold. That way holding a lane isn't funneling, but a Taric siphoning exp while Yi farms is. At least then Taric will be really under leveled if he can't be in the lane for the funnel to work.

Obviously the issue is still that if you get a successful gank and help push it hurts the jungler, but I don't see an easy way to avoid that seeing as a Taric Yi will just make sure to kill the enemy laner before CSing the wave to abuse that.

TheSingularityJul 24, 201821 votes

Revert scuttle changes. They crush jungle balance (making anything below a tier useless) and enables the funneling strat

Dope SoloJul 25, 20182 votes

Seriously. These attempts to end run around what should be a revert is just obstinate, hard-headed and ridiculous. You were **WRONG **riot - get over it. Hurry up so you can fix the rest of what you were **WRONG **about. summoner 14 summoner 12

KhelbJul 25, 20182 votes

This is what happens when the devs fuck with things like xp gains via "catch up xp". Seriously, how to completely fuck up your game 101 right there. They have been trying to "force" people to play certain ways for so long that the idea that a player might want to play how they want to (and know how to play better than the devs want them to) has completely escaped their minds. It's borderline totalitarian. "Sure, play our game, but you better fucking play it the way WE want you to". So beyond sick of Riots decisions over the last 3 years that i want to vomit. The right words to explain my frustration are either beyond my vocabulary or going to come out in a string of expletives. Fix defensive items or lower damage, stop releasing busted fucking mobility champs, and then leave the fucking game alone so players can play long enough to enjoy developing strategies. For fuck's sake, I'm going to have an anuerysm.

La BelloJul 24, 20181 votes

https://youtu.be/yZuQ02lgXX4

is that on takedown you receive normal gold from minions for 30 seconds.

[sg-lux-2]

BestPudgeNAJul 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Novalas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IMEFQRyh,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-07-24T18:50:25.120+0000)

We're exploring other options to alleviate the jungler pangs related to Monster Hunter. One option, which doesn't quite solve the holding waves issue, is that on takedown you receive normal gold from minions for 30 seconds.

Has Riot considered making the Jungle role not suck so much that playing 2nd support is better then having a real ganking jungler?

Christ SuperstarJul 25, 20181 votes

Wait, so even more snowball? :/

SelegunJul 25, 20181 votes

Why not tie jungle experience directly to the jungle items themselves? For instance, if you have a jungle item, you don't gain XP from lane minions and if you start collecting to many lane minions that shuts off jungle XP in a similar fashion to how item 3303 turns off its gold passive for killing minions?

In a way, let them keep the hold but never crest level 2

Colton147Jul 24, 20184 votes

MasterYi

TheSingularityJul 24, 201815 votes

They couldve reverted scuttle changes which caused this strat to arise

Sona PingJul 24, 20183 votes

{quoted}

They couldve reverted scuttle changes which caused this strat to arise

And how would that be helpful. You would still get a funneled, ultra fed carry regardless; it doesn't matter when or what made it popular.

TheSingularityJul 24, 20189 votes

Stick a support mid (the general strat) who aids in securing crabs, that's a max of 280 gold per pair of crabs for the jungle and 280 gold the enemy jungler is deprived of (+XP). If we revert the change, crabs are worth like, 30 gold?And significantly less XP. So it is worth far less time and the jungler will have to invade to get a leg up on the enemy as crabs won't make or break the jungle match up. 140 gold was added to the jungle through patch 8.10, on a squishy jungle camp that doesn't hit back and offers more XP than just about every other camp in the game. That's a minimum of 140 gold, a max of 280 and a max of 460 XP every 2.5 minutes (+a lil extra, as the moment one dies the other spawns after the first 2 crabs spawn).

If every crab is killed, a jungler will have approx 600 extra gold over the enemy by 12 minutes on top of 2 levels above the enemy jungler.

Revert the changes and this becomes impossible. There is no longer a point to having mid lane be ur bitch because scuttler doesn't give enough gold/XP to warrant it (as the support may as well follow them everywhere they go, in which case the enemy mid can shove and roam).

Sona PingJul 24, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Stick a support mid (the general strat) who aids in securing crabs, that's a max of 280 gold per pair of crabs for the jungle and 280 gold the enemy jungler is deprived of (+XP). If we revert the change, crabs are worth like, 30 gold?And significantly less XP. So it is worth far less time and the jungler will have to invade to get a leg up on the enemy as crabs won't make or break the jungle match up. 140 gold was added to the jungle through patch 8.10, on a squishy jungle camp that doesn't hit back and offers more XP than just about every other camp in the game. That's a minimum of 140 gold, a max of 280 and a max of 460 XP every 2.5 minutes (+a lil extra, as the moment one dies the other spawns after the first 2 crabs spawn).

If every crab is killed, a jungler will have approx 600 extra gold over the enemy by 12 minutes on top of 2 levels above the enemy jungler.

Revert the changes and this becomes impossible. There is no longer a point to having mid lane be ur bitch because scuttler doesn't give enough gold/XP to warrant it (as the support may as well follow them everywhere they go, in which case the enemy mid can shove and roam).

No. The crabs are not worth 140gold=280more gold. The crabs scale up to 140 gold, meaning a difference 70 to 0 gold from what they were. And that doesn't even matter. It honestly doesn't. You look at a funnel game and see the carry has 5 and a half items at twenty something minutes and is on his way to 300 CS in a few more. You can't look at the game and say "Well if those handfulla crabs had up to 70 less gold this wouldn't have happened." This is just a potentiality that was there.

Crimson ZeppelinJul 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

They could have NERFED THE CRAP OUT OF KAISA AND YI. Why the flying fk kaisa is able to jungle in the first place. "People should not play champions outside their role! Yea but fk that if thats a NEWLY RELEASED ADC THAT OFFERS NOTHING NEW TO THE GAME AT ALL. Actually functionally a Vayne 2.0 with better laning phase!!!!!!"

Yes and she has cleavage and was complained about it. But WHATEVA.

...Bullocks. We are in dark times where the balance team is being ridiculed every second with legit reasons.

z63XnLCMwXJul 24, 20183 votes

Because it prevents junglers from abusing lanes to get ahead in EXP. Just because you don't get gold doesn't mean you lose out. Letting your turret fall is the same as feeding your opponent half a kill. Would you be behind 50-60 gold or let that Talon have another 150 gold + cs advantage?

KillerShimJul 24, 201817 votes

I would rather have myself stay ahead because I'm confident I can carry my team on my back.

AmetDeCryptJul 24, 20182 votes

except you aren't ahead because their team just got a gold advantage over you. and their mid is now ahead of you.

KillerShimJul 24, 20189 votes

I'm ahead, not my team.

OleandervineJul 24, 20182 votes

Refer to this from Meddler. Someone pin it if necessary, it answers this thread.

**We're aiming to have a nerf to mid/jungle gold funneling in 8.14. It's an issue we've been looking at for a little while now, given it creates lanes without much interaction and putting two income streams on one champion produces a range of balance issues. We haven't been able to find a fix that's low enough on collateral damage to regular jungle play, low enough on disruption for a regular patch and that meets our design values, especially on things like intuitiveness and clarity. **

**We're at the point though where we don't think we should let the issue persist while we continue to work on those constraints. We'll be going with a temporary solution as a result that's pretty ugly on the intuitiveness/clarity side, with the intention of replacing it come preseason when it's more appropriate to make larger changes. That temporary solution is heavily reduced gold from lane minions if you have a T1 or T2 jungle item and have the most gold on your team. **

BestPudgeNAJul 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Refer to this from Meddler. Someone pin it if necessary, it answers this thread.

**We're aiming to have a nerf to mid/jungle gold funneling in 8.14. It's an issue we've been looking at for a little while now, given it creates lanes without much interaction and putting two income streams on one champion produces a range of balance issues. We haven't been able to find a fix that's low enough on collateral damage to regular jungle play, low enough on disruption for a regular patch and that meets our design values, especially on things like intuitiveness and clarity. **

low enough on collateral damage to regular jungle play low enough on collateral damage to regular jungle play low enough on collateral damage to regular jungle play low enough on collateral damage to regular jungle play low enough on collateral damage to regular jungle play

It's not

OleandervineJul 25, 20185 votes

{quoted}

low enough on collateral damage to regular jungle play low enough on collateral damage to regular jungle play low enough on collateral damage to regular jungle play low enough on collateral damage to regular jungle play low enough on collateral damage to regular jungle play

It's not

No shit. It's almost as if you didn't read the entire sentence.

"We haven't been able to find a fix that's low enough on collateral damage to regular jungle play"

followed by:

"We're at the point though where we don't think we should let the issue persist while we continue to work on those constraints."

The Yetii RiderJul 24, 20181 votes

All you have to do to get full gold is finish your jungle item. An incredibly efficient, super cheap final item that gives you a huge amount of power. It's not hard.

Pika FoxJul 24, 20183 votes

A lot of junglers dont finish their item.

The Yetii RiderJul 24, 20181 votes

Yes and that is the player's choice. The player is being bad there. The player is making a mistake, and now they are properly punished for this.

Pika FoxJul 24, 20182 votes

? No, plenty of junglers dont care for any of the completed items before others. Tiamat is a major example, as junglers without AoE who dont want cinder often need this asap if theyre not getting good early ganks (and its even a bigger gank powerspike for many)

The Yetii RiderJul 24, 20181 votes

Then that is a trade off they are making. They get faster clears and more XP and health for ganks. In exchange, they get less gold.

This is the fundamentals of a choice. You lose something in exchange for something else. If players value more ganking and more clearing early, they will keep building Tiamat. If they value more gold then they will finish Warrior.

Also, 'plenty of junglers' ignores all the junglers who do not build Tiamat, which in theory should be 75% of them. There are more players who choose to play AD junglers because of their early game strength, this may make jungle players choose to play fewer Tiamat junglers and lead to a more balanced meta.

Pika FoxJul 24, 20183 votes

Except this change has nothing to do with choice and will likely be reverted entirely in the preseason. The change was a rushed gutting to gold funnelling, and riot even admitted as such.

My Waifu VanillaJul 25, 20181 votes

And not adapting to it and continuing to build tiamat knowing FULL WELL what the consequences are and then STILL complaining about it is why I hate a majority of the playerbase on the forums.

Pika FoxJul 25, 20181 votes

People are complaining because it is a stupid change that completely cripples a good portion of junglers into essential unviability and think riot is doing this intentionally as a permanent solution. Its a shit change and riot knows it, its just a shit change thats necessary in the short term.

My Waifu VanillaJul 25, 20181 votes

I am agreeing with you.I know it is a temporary solution. I just think it is a dumb complaint since it not only ONLY affects tiamat users, but it also ONLY affects tiamat users that have the most gold on their team. "Wah I lose 60 gold on the wave when I already have more gold than everyone else". It's too bad that it is still worth covering lanes for basically free exp that would be lost to the tower and setting up the creeps for when your laner gets back. Out of the like top 15 junglers only Lee, Trundle, Shaco, and Rengar buy tiamat and Lee doesn't really NEED to buy it. An argument can be made for the other 3, but only Trundle is going to actually be touching enough lane creeps for it to matter. He is also the one that is actually going to finish his jungle item early. Rengar and Shaco are much better ganking than splitting since by not being visible on the map they apply so much pressure that sitting in a side lane is a waste of time ESPECIALLY since Shaco pushes slow as hell even with Tiamat.

KillerShimJul 24, 20182 votes

Ivern ?

The Yetii RiderJul 24, 20181 votes

Ivern SHOULD be finishing Cinderhulk earlier than he does. Again, this is a choice made by players and it comes with a cost.

KillerShimJul 24, 20183 votes

He should never complete his jungle item actually.

Anyone of high elo knows that.

BestPudgeNAJul 25, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IMEFQRyh,comment-id=00070000000000010000,timestamp=2018-07-24T19:36:12.113+0000)

Ivern SHOULD be finishing Cinderhulk earlier than he does. Again, this is a choice made by players and it comes with a cost.

Ivern should never build any of the jungler items, the only reason he takes the starter item is for the extra XP.

My Waifu VanillaJul 25, 20181 votes

tell me how many times you have the most gold in the game as Ivern and how often you kill lane creeps at the same time. Please I will wait. Ivern clears slower than almost every other jungler already meaning it isn't like he's going to have a massive farm lead or anything. You are just complaining about this scenario for the sake of complaining about it even though it NEVER comes up.

VICHEL CHAOSJul 25, 20181 votes

You should know best about gold, seeming that you can't leave that division. I'm plat in flex and have been in soloq a couple of seasons, not much better, but I can offer some advice to help curb that ignorance you spew out. Don't need to thank me.

Not all junglers finish their jungle item, not all junglers rush it. It is not them being bad, it is their champion lacking in some area that needs to be addressed before finishing the jungle item. If WW/Shaco/Ivern as examples between others rush their jungle item they lose a lot. Now they are either punished for rushing their jungle item or, in the case they do, punished for helping out their team by holding lanes. This is not a trade off, but a net loss. Think about it. Given your comments it might take some tries but with some effort even you can do it!