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one of the largest problems with adc is that they can afford to skip lifesteal items these days.

Critmaster Garen··60 votes·2,155 views

instead of being forced to build one of the more expensive lifesteal items like

item 3153 3400 gold (edit.: fixed the price. thanks for pointing it out) item 3072 3700 gold item 3139 3600 gold item 3812 3500 gold

they get enough sustain and protection from their supports with additional items like item 3107 item 3190, and the soon to return warlords bloodlust/legend: bloodline.

next to the issue that completed zeal items with 2600 gold cost are 200 to 300 gold cheaper than they should be, it allows them to get away with these greedy

item 3031 item 3087 item 3094

builds in the first place. their item builds become way cheaper and effective much earlier than they should be. which in turn results them to power spike earlier and to snowball harder while still outscaling other carry types.

instead of being forced to build

item 3031 item 3087 item 3072 for a combined 9700 gold like they used to, their double zeal + i.e. builds fall too 8600 gold.

if marksmen access to outside sources of sustain isnt reduced, we might honestly have to increase the cost of zeal items into the price range of 3000 to 3200 gold just to get the price on even terms with mage and bruiser items to prevent them from snowballing games like theyre doing now.

40 Comments

Spank the Fox13 votes

ADCs don’t build lifesteal items because the lifesteal doesn’t increase from Vamp Sceptre significantly (except from BT).

Outside sources of healings is really irrelevant point of argument - mainly because they’re factors you, as a player, cannot control. Whether I have Leona or Soraka supporting me, I’ll be building IE, Shiv and RPC.

The problem for “greedy” builds (I don’t get why you keep calling them greedy when everything about an ADC is greedy) is the environment right now is burst or be bursted. Lifesteal only feels relevant 4th item onwards when tanks become beefy and you starting eating more AoE abilities from grouping and seiging.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

I agree, there is just no point in getting lifesteal earlier since it won't save you from burst, and you´ll rarely have enough other stats to really heal well before 4-5 items too.

Exceptions being Draven and......Draven, maybe Vayne?

My view is that it's item 3087 being a problem rather than anything else, that bonus 400 damage when critting is no joke.

junglerboy161 votes

Yeah, Lifesteal only used to be relevant when burst was much lower, lane phase went way longer, and trades were won over longer fights rather than nuke outs (during which lifesteal actually meant the difference between winning and losing, instead of who has better RNG).

Also, tbt when Bloodthirster was a stack based item and required being bought 2nd or 3rd but was still core cuz it was the only truly useful lifesteal item for ADCs.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Ah this was back in season 3 and before wasn't it? I seem to recall doing it myself back then.

Although some like Draven would rush BT as their first item x)

I just recently thought how nostalgic current league is with Draven+leo being a thing botlane, and how they absolutely delete anything they catch.

Just like when i first started playing AD carry botlane x)

Those were terrible times xD

Critmaster Garen8 votes

ive already pointed this out in other threads, but the old item 3075 with its 30% damage return was also a deterrent to these greedy zeal stacking builds.

a marksman without lifesteal or armor pen who would just stack crit items would literally shred himself on a thornmail. since the nerfs to the items damage return (especially to critical strike damage), there is no factor that punishes those crit stacking builds without armor pen or lifesteal anymore.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

I mean, with how bramble reduces healing there is little point in even buying lifesteal early if a tank gets it, better just go crit/ad/armor pen and do the most you can.

While playing Ashe i usually grab lifesteal as my 5th or 6th item, no real point before that since i´ll lose too much damage from doing it earlier.

And when dealing with a strong tank i usually build like either item 3153 item 3085 item 3036 or if i get strong early, item 3031 item 3046 item 3036 .

I do sometimes just buy last whisper as it's quite good by itself in case enemy tank doesnt have too much armor/health.

JackMcSnipeyz6 votes

In no way shape or form can a deleyed 1 time use redemption heal and a shield be accused of replacing sustained life steal. It doesnt, marksman who dont build one of the life steal items wont sustain like ones who do, and will lose fights where the target cant be bursted down.

SpecterVonBaren4 votes

This is not even mentioning all the sustain options they have in runes.

DuskDaUmbreon3 votes

All the sustain options? Like...the average of 14 hp an auto after Fleet Footwork is buffed, and the laughable 8% lifesteal?

DuskDaUmbreon4 votes

Generally they don't buy it right off anymore, but they sure as hell still buy it. That Sona W or that Redemption just aren't going to be enough to keep you alive.

ADCs need sustain to actually survive fighting a tank. No sustain, the tank will laugh off their damage (Last Whisper is generally a late item, and BorK is a sustain item as well) and just walk over them. Heals from the support aren't as strong as you think they are.

RainXBlade1 votes

Soraka

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

Soraka has her own HP to worry about. She can't afford to heal your dumbass 24/7.

Lit Corn4 votes

item 3153 3400 gold not 3200

MrHaZeYo3 votes

Agreed

BlackieHammer3 votes

Let's not forget the rune that gives them 8% lifesteal for free.

Anonagon5 votes

... which most aren't using because its simply mathematically inferior to the attack speed in terms of gold value.

I agree that ADCs have to much sustain without buying lifesteal, but its important to not attribute that power to an incorrect source, lest we nerf the wrong thing.

Sona Ping3 votes

Everyone is talking about how there's tons of damage available now through through runes, how if you make one mistake you die instantly, and calling it the largest problem in the game and that it has ruined it...

Yet also "one of the largest problems with adc is that they are skipping a combat sustain item".

HarrowR2 votes

If you've come here in search of logic, you have come to the wrong place.

Illâoi Evê Siôn2 votes

They're nerfing Heal and Shield Strength on the PBE

Sasogwa2 votes

Honestly it feels like crit items are too good and lifesteal items are just bad. I'd rather have nerfs on crit and buffs on lifesteal and come back to a much more conservative meta, where adc's deal less damage but are less vulnerable early game to hard snowballing (they can just lifesteal off creeps). If we could make so that we change BT in a way we come back to good old BT rush, I think it'd be much healthier.

Kaìju6 votes

The issue then is that marksmen become drain tanks which as you can see Aatrox, is really unhealthy because they become tanky by building damage.

junglerboy161 votes

They also just need flat damage nerfs overall, which would reduce the amount of true drain tanking they can do.

ADCs need to be shifted back into a DPS role, (reduce crit values and crit damage modifiers, reduce raw AD and armor pen, emphasize attack speed and stuff like stacking resist shreds or ramping damage, etc.)

Kaìju1 votes

If you nerf their damage to stop them drain tanking then why even go Lifesteal and not crit anyways?

junglerboy161 votes

They need nerfed burst damage in particular, without significantly effecting their DPS output over an extended fight, which the problem with crit right now.

Crit as a stat should not be something that can easily cap out in its current form, or if it is designed to be able to cap out, the damage modifiers should be lower, like 50% bonus damage base, increased to 75% bonus damage with IE (as opposed to 100% bonus damage increased to 150%).

ADCs should be able to sustain through a fight, which is what lifesteal is for. Drain tanking on the other hand is being able to stand and take the enemy's damage head on and out-heal it, which is unhealthy for a ranged class. If they're kiting and sustaining through the occasional AoE nuke, that's one thing, but if they're dueling a bruiser and just standing in their range taking damage and surviving, that's when things are wrong.

Basically, you missed the point and attacked something I didn't even say.

Critmaster Garen5 votes

{quoted}

Honestly it feels like crit items are too good and lifesteal items are just bad. I'd rather have nerfs on crit and buffs on lifesteal and come back to a much more conservative meta, where adc's deal less damage but are less vulnerable early game to hard snowballing (they can just lifesteal off creeps). If we could make so that we change BT in a way we come back to good old BT rush, I think it'd be much healthier.

lifesteal items dont need buffs.

its a dangerous path to tread. we dont want adc stacking lifesteal and other sustain and turn into drain tanks.

there doesnt need to be compensation every time an adc item gets nerfed. just increase the cost of shiv and rapid fire by 200 gold and phantom dancers by 300 gold and then go from there.

HaIlMonitor1 votes

item 3076 item 3075 item 3123 item 3165

All 4 of those would force adc's to get to the point of the game grievous wounds don't matter. Which is when they are stongest anyways, it just allows people to counter them easier.

Its a lot cheaper to buy item 3076 + item 3047 then item 3143 + item 3047

Mizaya2 votes

Greedy? I for one miss the days where you could buy a BT for 3000, farm, and then have +100AD and +25% lifesteal for 3k gold. Hell, I miss the time when IE > PD > BT was the go to build, double zeal stacking still feels super gimmicky and it's been like 2 years already. Back then, that was a time where you actually felt like a solo player on ADC. Honest to god the biggest problem is that marksmen and some other roles like tank and support are too interdependent on each other.

Like for real, think about the meta's we've had. We've had utility meta, where CC was more important than damage. We've had the meta where supports got a shitton of gold so they could funnel it all into the ADC, making the ADC extremely strong, and when tanks did the same essentially, but ADCs received the brunt of the complaints while the role didn't even feel that fun. Now, the meta is becoming tanks that do a shitton of damage, assassins jungle, and whatever mid, apparently Azir is tops right now. Oh, and engage supports. Top 4 ADCs don't really care about lifesteal (except Ez) because they have so much damage from long range abilities anyways. It's a meta where if you don't get caught, you're actually pretty strong, but if you get caught you pretty much lose against anyone. I'll take it over the ardent meta by far though.

Thilmer2 votes

Lifesteal is and unbalanced stat anyway. "Look at me building 5 offensive items and becoming a drain tank" didn't had sense.

However, the current "kill enemies in two autos" doesn't have sense either.

Riot needs to think about the adc role at some point, because the role abuses stats that are unbalanced from a start and barely exists in other games for balance reasons.

ProfDrDeath2 votes

Oh, don't forget that 7.24 improves Fleet Footwork for those IE+2 Zeal Upgrade champions. This will go to excerbate the problem, instead of being a direction aimed at actually fixing it.

DragonShea1 votes

Make Lifesteal scale like tenacity. so that 15+15 is not 30% Lifesteal but 27.75%

Thefrostyviking5 votes

Most don't really stack lifesteal, doing this is kinda a pointless change.

HarrowR1 votes

Like someone already said,everyone is complaining of how incredible the damage creep has become and that everyone is one shotting people,why then just not oneshot the ADC,he surely cant lifesteal a 2k dmg burst

Malix Farwin1 votes

I think that problem stems from the amount of damage output there is right now. Lifesteal is pretty pointless when you can get 2 shotted.

Alimentateur1 votes

you know fleet footwork got buffed?

Attack Damage Heal Ratio: 30% bonus Attack Damage Critical Levels: If the Attack that Activates Fleet Footwork is a critical hit, Fleet Footwork's healing is increased by 40% of your critical Damage Modifier

So basically if you buy item 3031 and you have 250% crit modifier, thats 100 bonus heal every critical energized attack.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Buffed Fleet Footwork only contributes to the problem Critmaster describes, because it is non-gold-dependent sustain. Which actually improves the cheap IE+2-Zeal Upgrades builds.

Hexs Fortune1 votes

We went from complaints over lifesteal and ADC drain tanking in season 3 to complaints about adc not taking lifesteal at all in season 7

JackMcSnipeyz1 votes

How much can we bet that if we look at YOUR match history, 90% of the games 1 or both marksman has, or was building a life steal item? Just curious.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Same reason most fighters hardly touch them. The game is all about pumping out the most damage first. Even Aatrox doesn't build lifesteal anymore (sometimes).

Gives No Lux1 votes

These days? I'm pretty sure all of last season most ADC didn't build lifesteal until 4th item at earliest.

DEPORTALLSPICKS1 votes

Because lifesteal isn't that good....?

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