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Could we try nerf Oracle disabling traps?

iPav··157 votes·13,280 views

>>Video about How OP Oracle <<

Hi, this is iPav the teemo player in NA server.

Please, remove the 'DISABLE affect from oracle' while keep the 'REAVEALING' on invisbles.

Note that there are 2 items that does same job in this game, Oracle lens and Sweeper lens. And I am talking about Oracle item 3364 only.

item 3341 Sweeper lens : Scans area for 6seconds, disable + reveals trap/wards

item 3364 Oracle lens : item 3341 + additional 4seconds duration + follows around champion.

I see the reason why oracle had to be changed in s6 compare to s5 ,but I do not think balancing team has thought of champion called 'teemo' has an ultimate that complete gets disabled for 10seconds long by free item when they did oracle patch for season 6. I see how Qss will get nerfed next patch since it is 1.3k gold Magic resistance item that counters AD caster's ultimates (zed, fiora) Well, oracle doesn't even cost anything to purchase and it just disallows champion's ultimate. The way I see oracle right now is, 'just a better sweeper lens' What if we disallow the oracle's disabling ward/trap system, and remain everything as same? Oracle's priority was detacting, not disabling. And give teemo, shaco, jhin some love please. Sweeper lens should do something unique and better compare to oracle, not sure about oracle to be remaining as 'better Sweeper lens'

After reading so many 'How do we counter teemo/shaco if we don't have oracle that disables any traps?'

item 3341 item 3341 item 3341 item 3341 item 3341

Please, reminder if you have played this game in Season 5, Teemo, shaco were never in Over powered state.

How about this.

item 3340 item 3363 item 3341 These 3 of them didn't really change much from Season 5 through 6 and we have no issues with them right?

item 3364 What's the purpose of this item that it has to be just UPGRADED version of item 3341 ?

If we already have disabling tool item 3341 Why do we have to make one more? item 3364 Since not many of readers of this thread won't be Master ~ Challenger players from s5, Let me tell you this, Every game in s5 of mine, enemy team had 3 ~ 4 item 3341 and other 2 had oracles. And yes, my traps never activated due to that.

Now, in s6, average 4 of enemy team gets item 3364 , this is just like "why you shouldn't pick teemo in s6"

Seriously, though, Teemo already suffered hard from 4 ~ 5 oracles/sweepers from enemy team every game from season5, and those oracles didn't even deactivate the traps. Why gotta make it harder in season 6. I don't really understand this.

191 Comments

hi im a fucboi42 votes

Hi, Shaco and Teemo main here. I've gotten as far as Challenger with these champions, and I do agree with Ivans point of view that while there does need to be counter play to invisible traps, the answer shouldn't be to 'disable' them. Revealing them is enough that the enemy team can simply kill the box/shrooms. Disabling them removes any room for play, even during team fights.

JerulEon3 votes

{quoted}

Hi, Shaco and Teemo main here. I've gotten as far as Challenger with these champions, and I do agree with Ivans point of view that while there does need to be counter play to invisible traps, the answer shouldn't be to 'disable' them. Revealing them is enough that the enemy team can simply kill the box/shrooms. Disabling them removes any room for play, even during team fights.

So you're saying that the red lens should reveal invisible traps and make them able to be killed but not completely disabled?

hi im a fucboi8 votes

{quoted}

So you're saying that the red lens should reveal invisible traps and make them able to be killed but not completely disabled?

Red lens already reveals invisible traps (Shrooms, JITB, Jhin Traps), but also disables them. This disallows counter play (i.e. If I were to bounce my shroom into a team fight, and have it land at the feet of their enemy ADC, but if they have a oracle lense active, it automatically becomes disabled) But yeah, what I described is basically the same effect that the current red lense has, without the disabling factor involved.

Spaceman5pff5 votes

This is fine for teemo, But for shaco, it would mean Melee champs still have to get into attack range of the box, and that would be problematic for obvious reasons.

iPav5 votes

{quoted}

This is fine for teemo, But for shaco, it would mean Melee champs still have to get into attack range of the box, and that would be problematic for obvious reasons.

item 3341

Spaceman5pff6 votes

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

READ IT.

What OP said is that That lens should NOT disable, only reveal. Meaning that an AP Shaco nest would be unclearable for melee like Garen Irelia etc as it would fear them and melt them.

iPav9 votes

{quoted}

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

READ IT.

What OP said is that That lens should NOT disable, only reveal. Meaning that an AP Shaco nest would be unclearable for melee like Garen Irelia etc as it would fear them and melt them.

item 3341

Spaceman5pff4 votes

Nice edit, bro

Nobutadas8 votes

I think you are missing his point. Oracle Lens (The level 9 upgrade) would reveal and not disable. The Sweeper Lens (Which is what Ivan posted as his reply) would still reveal and disable. The difference is the Sweeper Lens doesn't travel with the champion so you'd have to know where you want to disable traps.

PROJECT Katarìna28 votes

Problem is if your not a range champ then shaco's box will still trigger then

rinsujo5 votes

This, and heck, even teemo shrooms will trigger if you're melee and click 2 pixels too high.

JoJo2349718 votes

Strongly agree with iPav's thought process.

Javazon10 votes

Yea I thought revealing it was the counterplay. Not disabling.

B1naryB0t10 votes

So suddenly teemo counters melees even more? The reason they did it so that it disables too (apart from coding for wards, that's the real reason) is that melees have a chance to clear them without triggering them.

hi im a fucboi8 votes

{quoted}

So suddenly teemo counters melees even more? The reason they did it so that it disables too (apart from coding for wards, that's the real reason) is that melees have a chance to clear them without triggering them.

You realize you can still kill shrooms even if you're a melee champion without triggering them, right? And as a side note, Teemo does not counter melees as much as you think he does.

Lunar Silkworm5 votes

To further add to what this person is saying -- as I logged in to say the same -- Teemo's shrooms have an activation range of 60. The lowest autoattack range from champions is 125. Both in theory -- and in practice, as you'll note if you use something like a pink ward to reveal enemy shrooms and then clear them -- you can and should clear Teemo shrooms as a melee just by auto-attacking them without setting them off.

Llanite2 votes

The only melee he can counter are melee with no dash or ranged CC of any kind. How many are they? Garen, Rengar, Nasus and what?

LKMGinkaku9 votes

I agree with the OP. Just have it reveal the traps and whatnot. It's kinda stupid that it disables them to begin with.

Sahn Uzal4 votes

I think that's so Melee champions don't accidentally step on the shrooms when walking in range to kill them =P

Illiad8 votes

We should in no way ever remove a method of revealing otherwise un-counterable abilities with said capabilities as invisibility. Teemo, Jhin, Shaco, have more love than the 100+ champions that deal with their traps, with one or two ways of countering them.

iPav35 votes

Please, revealing and disabling traps are 2 different stuffs. not the same. If you remember what oracle used to do from s1 through s5, well, there still is oracle from bird smite.

Zero Skill Tank3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tetsu Juan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NRb99Kqz,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-04-26T01:56:35.787+0000)

We should in no way ever remove a method of revealing otherwise un-counterable abilities with said capabilities as invisibility. Teemo, Jhin, Shaco, have more love than the 100+ champions that deal with their traps, with one or two ways of countering them.

Revealing a trap allows you to disarm them.

Illiad2 votes

ye, after reading it over a bit and other comments, it makes sense enough. sorry for the outburst

ModCaptainMårvelous5 votes

I would agree if there were more ways to deal with invisible traps. All we have are these trinkets and honestly, they just don't cut it to how far a teemo or shaco trap can be spread across a map.

Nerf it sure, but let's either add item 3187/item 3185 or give us some sort of trap detection element.

Bluid2 votes

At least those items, while in my opinion shouldn't be allowed to exist in summoner's rift (not because of Teemo: I am talking about any stealth champion who could be hard countered by simply buying one of these items), cost a reasonable amount of gold instead of being free, burn an item slot, and have low stats in an hypothetical late game build. item 3364 , instead, is a free trinket which can be bought by everyone, and it completely destroys a champion.

Yfrappefort5 votes

Teemo just keep suffering every season because of new things they add. When it's not oracle it's a trinket when it's not that it's a crab. On top of that they throw HEAVY nerfs (huge AP ratio and duration cut of his ULTIMATE), give some gimmick as buff (wtf who really use bouncing mushrooms that takes forever to arm in team fights?) to compensate and then oh surprise! Teemo suck since 5.15 and got destroyed. Nobody use him even in a triple ADC meta. R.I.P. my main since season 1.

Vesarixx4 votes

[deleted]

iPav16 votes

[{quoted}](name=Raith alghul,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NRb99Kqz,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-04-26T03:19:26.369+0000)

You really want to see the kind of compensation nerfs Teemo would get if they removed some of the already limited counterplay from his shrooms?

For counter play for shroom, there is still red trinket in this game. So, you might not know about this but, invisible champions got buffed this season becasue Oracle does not allow champion to be target hit. but, did all the invisbile champions got nerfed cuz of this? No, not a single invisible champions were nerfed after this change.

Zero Skill Tank5 votes

"Already limited" lol ATM it's the easiest ability to counter in the game.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

"Already limited" lol ATM it's the easiest ability to counter in the game.

Until qss nerf, zed would like to disagree with you (not that he's anywhere near underpowered).

Blackstone013 votes

That costs gold to do. Disabling shrooms is free.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

That costs gold to do. Disabling shrooms is free.

It's not as spammable as shrooms. And the argument was easiest. A click of a button makes both ults useless.

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

Zed still gets dash, untargetability and blink away.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

Zed still gets dash, untargetability and blink away.

And if you were actually reading what we were talking about, you would understand that that fact is meaningless (we're talking about ults being negated too easily, and I already acknowledged that zed was far from weak).

trkboosted reading comprehension. Then again, this is a League forum, not an academic one, but still.

Zero Skill Tank3 votes

You can't negate Zed's ult. You can only negate damage part, and blink if you stunlock him. So yes, negating Teemo's ult is way, way easier.

Alsek3 votes

Pressing, "4," is hard apparently.

Hero in Relief4 votes

I wish we got pink ward trinkets again for counterplay. Also just let Oracles get wards would be fine since it covers a huge area.

Shroom Junkie4 votes

So I post this and I get downvoted to hell, but then iPav posts it and it gets 75%~ of upvotes. Nice.

Not to say I don't agree, I did post it too. Btw keep up the videos iPav, love to get advice and stuff. c:

BeaverBeliever4 votes

I completely agree, I've submitted this same request 2 months ago with no reply. It's pretty damn annoying when you're crippled by a free item.

Pyro4 votes

Fully agree. They nerfed QSS so zed and lb ult marker can't get taken out. So they can keep their abilities. But with teemo, who isn't even in meta, gets shat on by disabling one of his abilities. Take the disabling affect out.

Nekusen3 votes

Here is why your idea won't work:

traps like Shaco trigger with proximity, so how would you kill them without disabling them?

as the disable isn't eternal, this generated counterplay and counter-counterplay, if you see them trying to destroy a trap, you can contests until red trinket wears off.

without red disabling them, riot will probably end up nerfing traps to have like 1 hp or so.

iPav9 votes

{quoted}

Here is why your idea won't work:

traps like Shaco trigger with proximity, so how would you kill them without disabling them?

as the disable isn't eternal, this generated counterplay and counter-counterplay, if you see them trying to destroy a trap, you can contests until red trinket wears off.

without red disabling them, riot will probably end up nerfing traps to have like 1 hp or so.

yes, I rather have 1 hp traps rather than traps that doesn't even do it's job. haha. I hope you are the rioter and make that happen! One more thing, after reading so many of 'How are we suppose to play against traps then?' comments, I willl eddit that Even IN SEASON 5, there was no such Oracle like s6 was, and Shaco, Teemo were NEVER IN OVER POWERED state. all the comments that I see sounds like 'I just started this game from season 6'.

C'mon guys, you know how season 5 was like, don't act like fool that you don't know how to counter those champs. Sweeper lens was and should be still be a THING. a useful trinket, instead of 'downgraded oracle' And if you we remove the 'disabling' part of the oracle, it should still do EXACTLY same job to the traps it did in s5. Since you can still SEE THEM.

Nekusen2 votes

{quoted}

yes, I rather have 1 hp traps rather than traps that doesn't even do it's job. haha. I hope you are the rioter and make that happen! One more thing, after reading so many of 'How are we suppose to play against traps then?' comments,

so lenses will be useless against stuff like shaco's boxes as they still will be triggered.

you are acting like a salty player that got a trap disabled. in order to kill the ward, you have to "randomly" activate lenses first which will enter on cooldown. you are pretending that item 3364 tells you all the time when traps are nearby.

if you really want to keep your traps, contest them until oracle's wears off.

iPav9 votes

{quoted}

so lenses will be useless against stuff like shaco's boxes as they still will be triggered.

you are acting like a salty player that got a trap disabled. in order to kill the ward, you have to "randomly" activate lenses first which will enter on cooldown. you are pretending that item 3364 tells you all the time when traps are nearby.

if you really want to keep your traps, contest them until oracle's wears off.

yes.. item 3364 actually does tell you where traps are near by around your own champion... please, play the game. At least, don't just read the patch notes and trying to judge what experienced players are talking about.

3 oracles on team = 30 seconds of teamfight where teemo's trap will never pop. 4 oracles on team = 40 seconds

Teemo = 500 auto attack ranged champion only thing special about him is 'trap' honestly.

Seriously, though, Teemo already suffered hard from 4 ~ 5 oracles from enemy team every game from season5, and those oracles didn't even deactivate the traps. Why gotta make it harder in season 6. I don't really understand this.

J Eevo2 votes

Oracle is already garbage at detecting champions though, and you want to make it even worse so it doesn't do shit against traps?

iPav5 votes

[{quoted}](name=J Eevo,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NRb99Kqz,comment-id=0028,timestamp=2016-04-26T20:01:34.391+0000)

Oracle is already garbage at detecting champions though, and you want to make it even worse so it doesn't do shit against traps?

read the dam thread again.. sigh..

J Eevo1 votes

You'd fuck over most melees with that change, they can't disable shaco traps without triggering them, Mushrooms can be poked, barely, if you have enough AA range( though it's sometimes still behaves weirdly if you're one of the 125 melees)

iPav1 votes

[{quoted}](name=J Eevo,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NRb99Kqz,comment-id=002800000000,timestamp=2016-04-28T07:57:53.981+0000)

You'd fuck over most melees with that change, they can't disable shaco traps without triggering them, Mushrooms can be poked, barely, if you have enough AA range( though it's sometimes still behaves weirdly if you're one of the 125 melees)

Please, too many of you guys pulling out "I don't play this game, but I might know this stuff..." Play the game, and comment it from your own experience. It's okay to imagine that 'Maybe melee's cannot clear any traps' But keep it to your own imagination until you actually try out by yourself. Why am I frustrated like this? Because, even though I explained this stuff in the thread, people who down votes this thread 'ONLY READ WHAT THEY LIKE' and 'Skip the parts which they don't know about' and puts some "I don't play this game, fk your thread' comments. Sorry about being very rude on this reply but, man, you will probably understand how I feel if you find out how many comments I got like this on this thread.

So please, read the thread again, or test it out on your game before you make comments.

J Eevo1 votes

What do you mean I don't play the game, I play the game almost EVERY day. As for melees clearing traps - It's honestly weird.

And yes, there is no way to clear a shaco trap if you're melee and it's active. Imagine you're rammus, You sweep the bush, and on the way to your gank you discover traps, what do you do? You do NOTHING, you have to walk into it anyway or take another route, sweeping the bush gave knowledge you can't use.

As for clearing teemo shrooms... That one's weird. You theoretically should be able to, except either the spaghetti code or the animation makes it so you trigger them anyway. I've seen plenty of cases where you see the shroom(mostly on aram), and still get hit by it while clearing because the champion hitting it is braum or warwick.

AND I'VE READ THE THREAD JESUS EDIT: And no i didn't downvote, the discussion's valid, I don't agree with you but that's no reason not to talk about it.

iPav2 votes

[{quoted}](name=J Eevo,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NRb99Kqz,comment-id=00280000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-29T09:54:11.760+0000)

What do you mean I don't play the game, I play the game almost EVERY day. As for melees clearing traps - It's honestly weird.

And yes, there is no way to clear a shaco trap if you're melee and it's active. Imagine you're rammus, You sweep the bush, and on the way to your gank you discover traps, what do you do? You do NOTHING, you have to walk into it anyway or take another route, sweeping the bush gave knowledge you can't use.

As for clearing teemo shrooms... That one's weird. You theoretically should be able to, except either the spaghetti code or the animation makes it so you trigger them anyway. I've seen plenty of cases where you see the shroom(mostly on aram), and still get hit by it while clearing because the champion hitting it is braum or warwick.

AND I'VE READ THE THREAD JESUS EDIT: And no i didn't downvote, the discussion's valid, I don't agree with you but that's no reason not to talk about it.

First, I said remove the 'disabling affect' from the ORACLE. which means, you still get to have a 'disabling affect' from SWEEPER lens.

Second, teemo trap, shaco trap, or ANY TRAP's activation range is 100. Therefore, melee champion's shortest range wich is 125, can clear ANY TRAPS without disabling. 650 range cait getting hit by melee champion is not that melee champion is over powered. It's that 650 range cait got somehow close to melee champion therefore she gets hit by them.

Please, try out in your game.

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