Counterjungling in the new jungle; or why Poacher's Knife is less useful than Executioner's Calling

TheLastBaron88··3 votes·1,226 views

OK I'd like to start by saying the gromp buff and cinderhulk changes have been fantastic for the jungle, putting tank junglers from somewhere around "irrelevant" to "back on the map". Strategic Diversity (or lack thereof) I think has a lot to do with why you almost never even see certain junglers. Particularly dedicated counterjunglers, the ones who cannot gank and snowball lanes or themselves, but focus on crushing the enemy jungler's ability to scale.

Now let's get to the meat of it. Ganking is a solid strategy for obvious reasons, it gets your lanes ahead so they can carry you, while you sacrifice your own time that you could be spending building your own strength. Farming is a different strat that is optimal when there aren't any ganks available, or if your lanes are winning on their own, building your own strength so you can carry later, but potentially costing your lanes the early game if the enemy jungler is getting ganks on them. But what about counterjungling? Ganking junglers leave their jungle wide open, while farming junglers require, well, farm in order to succeed. Counterjungling should at least be an effective strategy to limit the strength of the enemy jungler. But does it do this? I think not. There are a variety of reasons for this. First and foremost, the changes to gold and experience in the jungle have shifted more of the gain to the smaller monsters in camps, preventing junglers from being punished as hard by partially clearing camps. Also the rubber-banding effect of the levelling jungle camps helps keep a jungler who has been set far behind catch back up with disproportionate ease, and the always-hits-late-game state of the game really makes it hard to justify the huge early risk of invading the enemy jungler. Add to this that dedicated counterjunglers typically offer weak to non-factor ganks, and you have a whole class of character that is an innate liability to their team.

With all that said, what can be done? Overall, I think the jungle changes so far are outstanding, at least when you factor in the last patch. The xp/gold balance of jungle seems pretty solid. I wouldn't touch that. Let's look at the Poacher's Knife. Strong counterjunglers, especially the dedicated ones, typically can either win fights or avoid them with overwhelming ease. These include types like Shaco, Lee Sin, Nunu, Shyvanna, Reksai, and Tryndamere. The movespeed passive on Poaching smite is completely unnecessary on them, and even if it were effective, it would be countering the one means of countering the counterjungler (thats a lot of counters, but who's counting?), which is warding your jungle and using teamwork to collapse on a guy who is now running away at homeguard speeds.

Adding the bonus gold and lower cd of the poaching smite is nice, but the point of counterjungling isnt to farm, it is to crush and starve the enemy jungler. It is the riskiest strategy by far, and has the least effectiveness to show for it. Because of the rubberbanding xp effect in jungle, you have to CONSTANTLY deny their camps throughout the game in order for your strategy to be effective. You have to be able to put them far enough behind that they cannot contest your own moves. The counter-strategy of course is to ward and catch/kill or at least drive off the enemy jungler, and prevent him from denying your camps, wasting his time so that he is the one who is not farming effectively, and as you clear your own jungle, that rubberband effect should pull you back into the game, whereas the counterjungler, through his failed efforts, has set himself behind.

I think that instead of the movespeed effect on Poaching Smite, Poacher's Knife should Desecrate the target jungle camp if it is used to kill the large monster (no effect if it fails to secure the monster, so as to force junglers like Nunu to contest camps with their Smite instead of Consume for the full effect), lowering the gold and experience that the enemy jungler can receive from it on its next spawn (no deduction from gold or xp that you earn by clearing it a second time for obvious reasons). You could potentially also allow this to buff the base stats of the camp for its next spawn, making it harder to clear, but I think that might be going too far, and might not have the intended result. It might be a good idea to remove the lowered cooldown on poaching smite as well, if you decide to do this.

I think this change would make Poacher's Knife a viable item, and promote a more interactive and rewarding counterjungle playstyle.

TL;DR: Remove the movespeed buff on Poacher's Knife, replace it with an aoe effect on large monster kill (only if smite deals the last hit) that debuffs the camp on its next spawn to grant less gold and experience to the enemy team than it normally would. (No effect on you if you clear it a second time). Might also consider reverting the smite CD bonus it offers, since the two effects in conjunction might be too strong.

Thoughts?

13 Comments

yiCKPkhs5s4 votes

I really like this idea but I still don't think that it is quite on par with the other smite buffs. I've suggested this before but if poacher's knife was ALSO a 1 charge sightstone (like spirit of the ancient golem used to be) then that would offer a lot of utility. Vision is very handy to have when you are counter jungleing but it also offers strategic diversity. I think these two changes together would be a perfect balance

TheLastBaron881 votes

Vision is pretty dandy. But as with the current incarnation, this would offer more of a reduction in risk to the strat, rather than increasing the reward, which is the real problem. Plus with the way yellow trinket works now, it seems like another ward item would just be lackluster and more of the same. Then again, they did just release an AP static shiv, soo...

Honestly I'm kinda surprised by the responses I'm seeing. I really thought an item that allows you to cripple the other jungler's gold/xp income would be borderline broken just in concept, before even factoring in real numbers.

Some additional ideas, should it prove too weak as is, could be to lock the smite buffs on a debuffed camp? As in, no gromp buff for the enemy jungler if it has been Desecrated?

I really like the theme of this idea, so any suggestions that would work within it would be appreciated. Ultimately I see counterjungling as the posterchild for high risk / high reward strategies.

Variks the Loyal3 votes

The problem with your suggestion is it still doesn't provide the raw utility that the other smites give. Part of that is because counterjungling cannot be planned. It's random and sporadic. If you see the enemy jungler gank top, you can take it as an opportunity to ward up dragon, his jungle, and maybe take wolf camp (Gromp takes too long to kill and won't have it's timer extended by leaving a small monster behind). This happens anywhere between once and 5 times before mid game, between farming your own camps and ganking and so on.

Poacher's Knife can be like that, but in yours and the current iteration, it's not as helpful as the others. Compare how many times you'll be able to counterjungle a camp compared to how much hp and mana (Therefore time) Blasting Smite saves you, or the ganking power that Chilling Smite gives you. Chilling Smite on it's own often forces a Flash or ult to escape.

Poacher's Knife and Poaching Smite can be good, but it needs to offer a small bonus outside of counterjungling. Something that helps the jungler baseline, without being as good as the other smites on it's own. My suggestion would be to make Poacher's Knife reduce Smite's CD by 10 seconds and recharge time by 5. In addition to refunding half a smite charge by smiting the enemy's jungle, it'll help the jungler keep his smite up for dragon/baron/scuttler and help get his smite bonuses more often. That alone won't be as good as, say, Blasting Smite, but combine it with the counterjungling assistance, and it becomes better.

It'll still be a gamble, as an item, but a much more worthwhile gamble.

TheLastBaron881 votes

You know, the gromp camp is a HUGE part of jungle tank play patterns right now. You've got a very good point about not being able to delay its spawn. Maybe add a 15-20 second spawn penalty on Poacher's?

As for planning to counterjungle, you mean you don't specifically counterpick Hecarims, Nautilus, etc and punish them for their weak early game pick? I used to play Tryndamere into Hecarim alot back when he was popular, because no one could step to him late game if he had levels and items.

Miku Lv992 votes

Poacher's Knife does seem like the worst jungle item to me. But my problem with it is that fact that it telegraphs to your opponents that you're going to try to counterjungle. Then you soon find yourself outnumbered in their jungle and dead. The item is too risky considering it doesn't even seem like it gives bigger rewards than the alternatives. Like consider chilling smite getting you an extra kill in part of one of your ganks. That's so much bigger of a reward than 20 extra gold, denying the enemy jungler a little gold, and a little movespeed. And chlling smite is a way lower risk choice, too.

TheLastBaron881 votes

Yeah I could see that. It's kind of an inherent weakness with early aggression in general, really. That is to say, if the enemy jungler is Shaco, regardless of what he buys, you essentially know what he is going to do because of who he is. Same goes for Nunu, Lee Sin, or Nidalee. You can also expect invades from Xin Xao, that guy seems to try for the red steal and level 2 gank at least 60% of the games I've seen. The difference is, as you said, Poacher's Knife doesn't offer a reward worth the risk or investment.

The real challenge is, you have to make it good enough to buy on any jungler who wants to shut their opponent down and starve them out. Which of course is the ideal strategy if your lanes are all winning, since you will also be tracking the enemy jungler to warn of ganks.

yiCKPkhs5s1 votes

I can see how it would be good but I think the problem is it's still too specific. The other three have such a broad apeal so you can feel good about getting them at any point in the game. Poacher's knife needs a rework but I think it needs something that makes it good at more than just counter jungling

Avorok2 votes

Executioners calling was a swell item to ravage super lifesteal adc or any lifesteals, being an ex-user of it constantly, I feel the game is a bit unbalanced with stopping life stealers. Sure the mages have one, but only if they can get them under 40% health.

TheLastBaron881 votes

I totally agree. The title was meant more as a hyperbole. I really hope they get a better version of Executioner's back on the Rift soon.

TheLastBaron881 votes

{quoted}

I totally agree. The title was meant more as a hyperbole. I really hope they get a better version of Executioner's back on the Rift soon.

Rejoice! Saw a Red Post on Surrender at 20 where they were talking about making a new Brutalizer build path into a new Executioner's Calling to fill the void left by the impending Cleaver changes. These are exciting times we are living in.

DontBanMeImDrunk1 votes

they should change ur smite to copy the enemy jungler's smite for one charge. That way its worth picking up for counter jungling, but doesnt make u lose viable stats.

TheLastBaron881 votes

Thinking more on the idea of denying monster buffs to the enemy team, consider what it might be like if you could deny Red Buff or Blue Buff to the enemy team on its next spawn... This would allow some late game scaling to the item, something I don't think Trailblazer really offers. Being able to essentially keep two blues and/or reds off the enemy team for the price of one steal would be MASSIVE, I think. Might even be a bit too much.

You'd still have to steal it a second time if you wanted the buff for your team, but just keeping red off the enemy adc can be a pretty huge part of winning that big end-game teamfight.

If you really wanted to take this thing into broken territory, you could apply it to big neutral objectives like Dragon and/or Baron. But that would almost certainly make it THE go-to item for any jungler who doesn't absolutely require Trailblazer. But I guess it could still be an option. After all, most counterjunglers (Nunu, Shyvanna, the eventual Warwick Rework, and arguably Shaco) are supposed to revolve around objective control. And Riot did say they were looking to encourage fights over and around neutral objectives.

TheLastBaron881 votes

So according to Surrender at 20, Riot has actually acknowledged how awful Poacher's Knife is, but hasn't found a reasonable change for it and apparently doesn't have any plans to fix it right away? Someone point them over this way, I'd just like to know if they've tested anything like this internally.

More from Gameplay

More by TheLastBaron88