It almost feels like Lead Design kinda forgot halfway what made this game popular in the first place

SaltyToplaneGoat··87 votes·17,263 views

Ok guys, let's all take a trip back through time into the early 2010s, when League was just a teeny tiny game made by a barely functional indie studio, and suddenly it BLEW up. And do you know WHY it blew up? Let me give you the context:

If you wanted "real" competitive online gaming back then, and not just load an inoffical WC3 funmap called DotA, you had TWO choices effectively: Play Starcraft 2 or play Counter Strike. The entire esport segment was completly diveded by RTS and Ego-Shooter, that both catered to VERY different methods of skill expression: one primarely strategic, the other primarely mechanical/reflex based. In one the player was distanced from the things happening on the screen as his presence was split over countless units and buildings that had to be macro- and micro-managed, the other was literally "in there" with the Ego-perspective.

However, MOBAs then managed to somehow bring those two parts together: the concentrated presence and individual impact of a shooter combined with the strategic aspects of top-down strategy. Like this, a massive range of audience could be aimed for: both the shooter guys and the rts guys, plus everyone who had been kinda in between, yet found both extremes not really to their liking. It was literally the genre of mass-appeal simply in how the most basic mechanics worked. It was an empty niche, LoL jumped right in, and we all know what happened after: it grew FUCKING MASSIVE.

And there was simply not another game like LoL. Sure DotA 2 came out too but... putting raw player numbers side by side for a time League left them in the dust. At least for some years. Not sure how it is now, but if the DotA playerbase had remained loyal while the players kept leaving LoL like now (which means 95% of my friendlist being offline for months by now), this might have changed already. But back then... yeah, the game was not perfect by any means, but the direction it was going made many people say "Yo, they got this, they gonna make this awesome unique game even BETTER".

Also the game was not designed to be watched. It was designed to be PLAYED - simply because esport back then was not a thing yet. Kinda amazing that since they started working on making the game more Esport friendly, those numbers drop every year - and yet back then when Esport was barely an afterthought, it led to it being the most wached and played Esport in the western hemisphere.

But now, enter Season 5. Especially the juggernaut update. And I don't really want to blame Ghostcrawler again, but it all just fits to well with the timing: some random outsider who has never had much contact with MOBAs in general jumps on, and tries to twist and turn the game into something that it is definetly not.

One should think that someone who has worked on BOTH RTS and RPG should have had at least some sort of grasp on how a hybrid-form like a MOBA works, that empowers the player as an individual characters yet retains a certain strategic value. But sadly the exact opposite happened. It's one thing to be theoretically unqualified and fail, but it's a whole other to actually have experience on related subjects and yet fuck up so tremendously.

The careful balance of strategic and twitch-mechanics elements? Completly thrown out of the window. Good luck with your attempt to express skill while being dead before you can even press a button. The focus on the actual game? Bah, no need, we apparently need more "flashyness" for our LCS streams. And the uniqueness? Willfully being thrown out of the window while chasing behind the mechanical aesthetics of other games, such of Overwatch or whatever else appears to be popular instead of taking what League and only League could do and elaborate on it.

It's like the "new" top guys didn't give a shit about what this game was, and instead just started changing random shit because it's what they thought would work because "muh I am the designer why should I work myself into the project, make some research, or do my homework on the subject in general?! Look at me, I am GREG "MC" STREET who's only true skill is getting fired by Blizzard and having attended some classes in PR and self-representation". Just look at the threads he's in, where he posts, how he puts words in people's mouths and all that bollocks that comes with knowing how to exploit forum dynamics, because he knows he got a (luckily way smaller than years before) following of rabid white knights that just wait to lick their master's boot, yet strangely only show up AFTER he has commented on a thread.

He's a guy that can market himself, and I admit he does it well, but please, this is Lead Design. Not marketing. If fancy words are all you have, consider a change in profession.

But then again, it kind of explains the state of the game: if you let someone who is completly ignorant of the subject he is dealing with in and just let him do what thinks will now be profitable in the current state of the videogame industry, even if it means completly perverting the most basic ideals of the game and alienating players by the millions, then yeah, that's not going to go well. And yes, I'm going to say millions. If Riot says I'm lying on it, they can release their numbers on the playerbase. I know they got them, back in the day they proudly boasted with it. But since they don't I simply have to assume that they agree with this statement.

The one thing I got to ask then: if you want your game to be more like Fortnight or Overwatch, then... why should I not just go and play these games? Why should I stay with League when it is apparent that it no longer is its own game but rather the knock-off version of something else? Why should I as a player prefer any experience that is not the "original" version of it, just because this game is older? Experiences do not age, and while league once was a unique one, now it is on the path to generic mediocrity. There's not even a need for a game to show up and "kill" league. No, by attempting to be like the others, simply a mass of average games that however do their stuff that they set out to do right, will drown it out as it vanishes into obscurity.

Congratulations, it appears you sold the soul of the game, and what for? Absolutely nothing.

48 Comments

AmazoX45 votes

Also the game was not designed to be watched. It was designed to be PLAYED.

#I like the sound of that

Eye Of Terror4 votes

Me too.

Cowgirl Ed7 votes

The fun thing is, if they keep balancing like this nobody is going to play the game anymore, which leads to not many people interested in watching it. I'm glad this game is dying and my friend list is mostly offline/dead. Tryndamere and Ryze should abandon the ship while they can IMHO, they managed to make good stuff but now it's come to an end, like all things.

GayFluffyUnicorn7 votes

No tryndamere and ryze should fuckin take care of their shitty game.

big boi edri3 votes

This is how it felt when SC2 started going down hill.

Not blaming it entirely on that of course, League was taking off at the time and SC2's player base was leaving in droves for LoL. However, the more they catered the game to E-Sports, the worse it seemed to get. It was already a dying genre, but that mentality of balance and design around the pro scene seemed to really put the nail in the coffin.

Cocho23 votes

He never knew it to start off with xD

_How is this game so popular?

  • Riot Meddler_

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOjrSVURwGo&feature=youtu.be&t=29m52s

SaltyToplaneGoat13 votes

I am not sure what makes people think that League is a complicated game. Or Pokemon for that matter, which is mostly a highly intuitive version of rock-paper-scissors for that matter. The fact that he even said that in the video completly shows that this person definetly has no business being in the industry AT ALL. When he says that people gain most game "knownledge" from their friends, that does not mean the game is complex - it mostly just means that there's a shitload of trivia that a player might as well figure out by themselves.

Sometimes I wonder how a person in such a high position can be so extremly inept...

Captainn Ginyu7 votes

{quoted}

I am not sure what makes people think that League is a complicated game. Or Pokemon for that matter, which is mostly a highly intuitive version of rock-paper-scissors for that matter. The fact that he even said that in the video completly shows that this person definetly has no business being in the industry AT ALL. When he says that people gain most game "knownledge" from their friends, that does not mean the game is complex - it mostly just means that there's a shitload of trivia that a player might as well figure out by themselves.

Sometimes I wonder how a person in such a high position can be so extremly inept...

actually, pokemon can be pretty complicated depending on what your going for you have to worry about breeding and iv's an moves that can only be gotten through breeding a pokemon that was lucky enough to get move you gotta worry about there nature cause that play a role in stats now etc etc im no pro but theres a good bit that goes into pokemon that can me it complicated for someone thats never done it before

Divewing8 votes

A lot of the skillcap in Pokemon also comes from prediction

Verxint2 votes

Pokemon at a competitive level is meta and mindgamey as fuck

MaxControl2 votes

{quoted}

I am not sure what makes people think that League is a complicated game. Or Pokemon for that matter, which is mostly a highly intuitive version of rock-paper-scissors for that matter. The fact that he even said that in the video completly shows that this person definetly has no business being in the industry AT ALL. When he says that people gain most game "knownledge" from their friends, that does not mean the game is complex - it mostly just means that there's a shitload of trivia that a player might as well figure out by themselves.

Sometimes I wonder how a person in such a high position can be so extremly inept...

I second this because there is a difference between coding the client and server for this game and using a basic template that already exists. Let me give you a quick computer science lesson.

When programming, there is this thing called a class. It is a template that they use when programming. So each champion has a pre-build template, and this template is mainly to skip coding the boring stuff and get right to the meat of the champion (ie abilities, passive, ultimate, different mechanics, etc.). So someone else far more intelligent and creative has handled all of the seriously heavy lifting. They basically just build a model, add different animations for each of its actions (walking, q, w, e, r) and then code the abilities (all added to the template). Coding the abilities are probably really easy because functions to check if their champion is cc'd or the champions current hp are pre-build (which is what I mean about the hard stuff being done already). So the champion design and balance team are nothing more than data entry programmers. The most they have to do is fill in champion stats into equations (that already exist) to calculate damage output and stuff like that when balancing abilities.

Al Havoc6 votes

{quoted}

I am not sure what makes people think that League is a complicated game. Or Pokemon for that matter, which is mostly a highly intuitive version of rock-paper-scissors for that matter. The fact that he even said that in the video completly shows that this person definetly has no business being in the industry AT ALL. When he says that people gain most game "knownledge" from their friends, that does not mean the game is complex - it mostly just means that there's a shitload of trivia that a player might as well figure out by themselves.

Sometimes I wonder how a person in such a high position can be so extremly inept...

League is an extremely complicated game for beginners

Power Cosmic1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Al Havoc,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NHsB6mgT,comment-id=000000000002,timestamp=2018-06-18T05:03:11.722+0000)

League is an extremely complicated game for beginners

That is a good thing. Complicated means there is a lot of meaningful depth. Which also means there are a lot of ways to be important to your team and have fun doing so. Depth is disappearing as this turns into the first keyboard/mouse fighting game. Fighting games are very niche (for a reason) compared to big F2P games and other popular genres.

Of course the game needs new carries, but getting your carry carrying faster and harder should be a team thing. If you can do most everything yourself, you shouldn't scale anywhere close to those who can't. Different carries synergize with different comps and champs, require different tactics, and have varying counters, etc. Bring back the depth and the fun, this genre revolves around whose carrying. Right now it is everyone, so in effect it is no one. Yw, Riot.

3TWarrior2 votes

actually, pokemon is INCREDIBLY complicated with:

numbers affecting a pokemon's battle potential

a strategy's ease of use compared to victory percentage

single and dual-typing coming into play,

type changes,

abilities that impede strategies,

non-meta picks that can still be viable,

battlefield hazards,

battle weather effects,

in the real game, a pokemon's happiness stat even makes a difference (toned down in competitive for being OP amid a new system that would have to be figured out by the players),

tons of game modes and even player created modes

#over 800 different species with different aspects to them (it cuts to roughly half of that if you remove previous evolutions)

#equippable items to affect any strategy, some even let previous evolution forms be more viable than the fully evolved form

#knowledge of every pokemon's likely moveset when pokemon have at least 20 moves each and four available spaces for moves(and that's an understatement...)

predicting your opponent's likely move and counterpredictions

#status effects to impede performance with some that cure upon switch and some that do not

categories of battle types for the pokemon involved: Sweeper, revenge sweeper, tank/wall, wall-breaker, staller, status-infliction, setup, hazard-removal, hazard setup...

#and that's only what I can list off of the top of my head

oh and about that rock paper scissors comment, there are EIGHTEEN DIFFERENT TYPES OF POKEMON, not three and most of them have more than one type

JustSaiyan691 votes

Are you talking about the card game or game game. Because if youre talking about the game game its fucking easy.

3TWarrior1 votes

I'm talking about the actual game

the card game actually started to run out of ideas and started mixing and matching rules with the actual game

the game itself is easy to play, the competitive aspect of it is not easy at all

Pokemon has massive competitions with cash or scholarship prizes (though more for the card game, dunno why but I assume it's because the card game is their highest source of income)

if you want to try your hand at battling, well, i'm not sure how the legality works, so try searching for a simulator of the pokemon game, but that term is probably not right for what I am referring that has information on just about everything Pokemon as well as a way to play it against others not on nintendo's horrid wifi network

Giga Baboon16 votes

meddler and ghostcrawler got brought in when it was already popping off, only after they did they start work on league did it start going to shit

SaltyToplaneGoat19 votes

You know, I kinda miss Morello. That guy went totally bonkers on the Nerfs at times, but that way it at least prevented the game into becoming this damage-creeped mess that it is today. Sure he was not perfect in what he did, but at least he didn't fuck up like the current guys do...

GayFluffyUnicorn9 votes

I'm just saying it here again to raise awareness: Morello predicted a lot of stuff we have now. Just read it two days ago on the old forums from 2012: implementing systems to fight other imbalances just leads to an endless cycle. Here we are, powercreep.

Another guy on here said it right: Morello might not have known what would be good for league but he sure as hell knew what was bad for league.

Sewer Side1 votes

Meddler has been part of Riot for a loooong time, he wasn’t “brought in”

Meddler created Ziggs and Volibear

Also, Morello sucked ass, let’s not kid outselves that balance was okay back then

3TWarrior3 votes

can you describe a questionable balance decision that was not fixed before the end of season five when Meddler officially took over?

Adanim1 votes

{quoted}

can you describe a questionable balance decision that was not fixed before the end of season five when Meddler officially took over?

Meddler is the lead champion designer, he doesn't make balancing decisions. He's the guy that gives the thumbs-up when a concept is presented to him, and he's the guy who approves the final product before release. He has no part in the actual balance of the game.

3TWarrior1 votes

well, that puts a damper on that

who do we blame then for all of riot's design philosophies changing at the end of season 5?

Śhunpo14 votes

I mean, tbf Ghostcrawler is a sadist. He has explicitly stated that League should also evoke a sense of hopelessness from its players and a sense of despair. That and he literally has no idea what he's talking about most of the time since he has no actual idea how to actually design a video game (marine biology degree btw). He has stated this himself anyways, so it's not like I'm openly being rude about him.

If you don't believe me watch these two videos linked below: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOjrSVURwGo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hESJD5bG0OY

It's funny because in the 2nd one within the first 25 seconds his other team members just outright shut his statement down, thereby implying he does not know what he's talking about.

GayFluffyUnicorn8 votes

"you don't need to play the game to design it"- Ghostcrawler It's very fuckin obvious he does not play the game.

Śhunpo4 votes

{quoted}

"you don't need to play the game to design it"- Ghostcrawler It's very fuckin obvious he does not play the game.

Yep, the guy has no respect for the game. The same thing happened with WoW and SC2.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

That's not at all what they did in the 2nd video. It's obviously a joke that's meant to say that 'my job is the most important of the three' and the other 2 laughing back, "nah mine is". It's not an 'outright shutdown', it's the type of joke you make among coworkers, trying to say you're the most important of the process.

You can see it is, cause they're talking about DNA, with a Designer, a Narrative writer, and a Art Designer. It's a jab at the other two people in the room, which Peach-Shirt-Boi says "oooooooohhh". Like he's trying to start a fight.

Śhunpo3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NHsB6mgT,comment-id=00080001,timestamp=2018-06-18T17:22:12.870+0000)

That's not at all what they did in the 2nd video. It's obviously a joke that's meant to say that 'my job is the most important of the three' and the other 2 laughing back, "nah mine is". It's not an 'outright shutdown', it's the type of joke you make among coworkers, trying to say you're the most important of the process.

You can see it is, cause they're talking about DNA, with a Designer, a Narrative writer, and a Art Designer. It's a jab at the other two people in the room, which Peach-Shirt-Boi says "oooooooohhh". Like he's trying to start a fight.

I would agree with you.....but he's not the type of guy to crack those kinds of jokes.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

And you know this how? People can't have personalities, or jab at their coworkers?

Śhunpo2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NHsB6mgT,comment-id=0008000100000000,timestamp=2018-06-18T17:54:36.579+0000)

And you know this how? People can't have personalities, or jab at their coworkers?

Watch the other video and you'll see why. The guy has a twisted sense of what an MMO should be like. I think it's fair to say he was at least semi-legitimate when he stated that the D came first in Design.

I suggest you watch the video to understand.

Saianna7 votes

Look at me, I am GREG "MC" STREET who's only true skill is getting fired by Blizzard and having attended some classes in PR and self-representation".

Shoots has been fired :D

ChargeItDownMid4 votes

[deleted]

GayFluffyUnicorn6 votes

I mean it's not a 100% proof but i can tell you NA lost 2 million ranked players and EUW about the same. Also, op.gg lists everyone as ranked player who played the 10 placements and keeps them even if they don't play any game anymore.

NA used to have around 3-3,5 million player. EUW had times with about 4 million. NA is at 1.4 (rounded up btw from 1,38) right now and EUW has 2.2 million ranked players left.

That's a HUGE ass drop.

xJLx MCHammer4 votes

While I can agree that LOL has changed a lot, I also look at post like OP and say, NO

LoL was built with eSport in mind. Go check the old E3 videos where the devs at the time expressed a desire to make this game an eSport. No, you don't make a game into eSport right away. For that, you require a playerbase first. When LoL reached it's peak numbers (S5-6), that's when the devs decided to start altering the game.

Personally, while I dislike the snowball-y meta we are in now, I do think it's better than S7. There is more variety in picks despite it being more snowball-y. If you go back to LOL boards back in S5/S6 when games were taking 45-60 minutes, you'd have seen people saying that the games took too long. I don't think at that time it was an issue. During those times, players throughout all types of multiple genres were playing the games that were in fact 45+ minutes long. You had multiple RTS games which can take well over 40+ minutes. It was clear that LOL 's game length was accepted at that time.

Fast forward to 2016, 2017, and 2018, the multiplayer player-base throughout all genres want faster games. Even SC2 has changed to be faster; you also have newer games like Fortnight..etc that attracts players who prefer shorter games. Sure, you can argue that's not what made LoL work, but at the same time, you have to understand that it influences LoL. That trend influences LOL and every other game. It's why you see new games trying to take put PUGB type of mode into their games. That's what trends are. It's why you also can look back at the height of LOL and notice how other devs tried to put LOL style mode into their own games.

This is the reality! This is the truth. You may think that LOL doesn't compete with PUBG, Overwatch, or Fortnite, but it does. One important way is in games rooms; this is especially true in emerging markets like China. LOL competes with those games. More importantly, those games influence each other.

If LOL survives another 5 years, I'm sure there will be a new trend, not this rumble royale mode. When that new trend emerges, I'm sure LOL will get influenced by it. Maybe it will be another RTS mode where people prefer 30-60 minute games.

With that said, i still think S6 was the best meta. It was 30-40 minutes games on average. It was fun and decent amount of champions were viable. I don't think LOL is dying, but I do think the game reached it's peak back in S6. Now, we are seeing the game drop it's players, a lot like DOTA 2 did. If LOL is to die, it wont die fast, it will be slow death with games that Dev will make to try and base the more vocal players.

Here is to another 10 years. For however much I dislike this game, I still think it's one of the best multiplayer games i've played in my life. I still like it and it will hold a place in my heart. While i don't player like i used to, this game is still the best MOBA game in the market. You don't believe me? go play HOTS

DragonShea4 votes

Old news to me. RIot as a company has lost heart.

Anatera3 votes

Halfway is too generous.

ali afri3 votes

ghostcrawler and phreak

Leonerdo3 votes

All that analysis about "the shooter guys and the rts guys" is pretty insightful. League was not made to cater to one specific audience. I just wish you continued down that train of thought. But instead...

I don't really want to blame Ghostcrawler

No, it's abundantly clear that that is exactly what you wanted to do. You spent half of the post specifically directing blame at GC for all the problems you mentioned, and ridiculing his career on top of it.

Now, please understand, I don't give a shit about Ghostcrawler. He's just some old game-dev who's probably mediocre at his job. (But he's got 20 years experience so they put him in a management position where he spends his time dispensing those 20 years of wisdom to the designers who actually work on the game.) Whatever. But if you base your posts on personal attacks and blame-gaming, you aren't helping anyone, least of all the League community. You're just spouting trash-talk. Or are you actually deluded enough to think the game would get better just because one guy gets fired?

I'm honestly sick of this scapegoat, witchhunting crap people come up with. And here I thought the boards were taking a turn for the better, but I guess not.

Adanim2 votes

{quoted}

All that analysis about "the shooter guys and the rts guys" is pretty insightful. League was not made to cater to one specific audience. I just wish you continued down that train of thought. But instead...

No, it's abundantly clear that that is exactly what you wanted to do. You spent half of the post specifically directing blame at GC for all the problems you mentioned, and ridiculing his career on top of it.

Now, please understand, I don't give a shit about Ghostcrawler. He's just some old game-dev who's probably mediocre at his job. (But he's got 20 years experience so they put him in a management position where he spends his time dispensing those 20 years of wisdom to the designers who actually work on the game.) Whatever. But if you base your posts on personal attacks and blame-gaming, you aren't helping anyone, least of all the League community. You're just spouting trash-talk.

You have to understand that it's entirely sound and reasonable for the community to blame GC for his actions. He may not be one of the employees directly working on the game, but he's the guy who approves everything. He's the guy who tells the actual programmers what he wants and then reviews everything before they go live. He may not the the guy doing the actual balance changes, but he's the mastermind behind all of it.

You also have to understand that what is happening to LoL is exactly what was happening to WoW and SC2. He made choices (I won't pretend to know what they are, I haven't played a second of WoW and I've only ever played the SC2 campaigns) that caused a community uproar because it drastically changed the games and created a balancing nightmare. Mistakes happen in the professional world, everyone knows that, but GC was fired from Blizzard because of 2 reasons. 1. No one liked working with him/he was difficult to work with (probably because of the attitude he (in)famously has towards the games he is working on), and 2. he was going to screw up in a big way again and Blizzard wasn't going to allow that to happen.

I for one believe that he is incapable of working as a lead designer. He should be in a position where he follows orders, not gives them. Experience in the field is everything, and while he may have 20 years of it, his track record is atrocious. That's why people are mad. We have every reason to be mad at him, because once he became a rioter the game has been drastically falling apart. I don't think it's coincidental considering what happened to him at Blizzard.

are you actually deluded enough to think the game would get better just because one guy gets fired?

WoW and SC2 have been steadily getting better and the feedback has been becoming increasingly more positive since GC was fired. The games are more successful than ever, and have climbed out of their holes that were created by GC and gone even farther than they were before his damage was done. Yes, I believe that a single guy getting fired could save a game and start its healing process.

Leonerdo1 votes

Literally 80% of those statements are ridiculous rumors.

Change my mind. Give me some sources. Start with GC getting "fired" and the reasons for it.

Troll for Trump1 votes

How is it copying other games?

SangreDeNoche3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ðownright Darius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NHsB6mgT,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-06-18T00:02:12.234+0000)

How is it copying other games?

You either haven't been around long or aren't paying attention. Whenever something like HOTS, Smite, Overwatch, etc. come out and get popular among league players who say "I stopped playing league and started playing this" it's never long before riot pumps out 2-3 features that coincidentally are in those games. For example, Riot started throwing half baked alternate game modes at us a few months after HOTS came out. Suddenly, Riot had "always" been wanting to explore the possibility of more modes, despite saying the opposite about the 3 alternate maps we had.

Troll for Trump1 votes

But they've always had those modes. They just never rotated them. And HOTS isn't the only game that has alternating game modes.

Attticus Finch1 votes

If anyone knew "what made League popular" then the plethora of games that came in afterward trying to ape its success would have succeeded.

League was lightning in a bottle that became popular because it came out in the right place at the right time.

League is is losing popularity because half it's player Base has been playing the game for almost a decade and there are new games for a new generation to latch on to.

LegitBusinessman1 votes

I always said if I wanted to play League damage creeped to oblivion I'd just play Dota 2 which does the same thing but looks prettier.

DNFVixen1 votes

This person has this fucking down to a T jesus!

More from Gameplay

More by SaltyToplaneGoat