PSA: The jungler helping push your lane after a successful gank is beneficial to you

Eedat··79 votes·5,486 views

This seems to be a concept lost in lowers ELOs. If you try to help push a wave after a successful gank as the jungler, you get bombarded by back pings and raged at in chat.

This is why its a good thing:

  1. Shoving the wave under turret obviously denies the enemy laner XP and Gold

  2. It automatically sets up the wave to be pushing back to you when you get back to lane

  3. It forces the enemy to burn their TP (if they have it) while you get a free pass to back and walk back without missing much

  4. It can force the enemy jungler out to a lane to soak up the wave which gives up all their map pressure

So please keep this is mind. You WANT your jungler to help push the lane if your enemy is dead.

94 Comments

Ethan Allen23 votes

The real struggle is when the wave is in the perfect spot to freeze and they push it.

Eedat13 votes

Just push it under their tower and you can freeze again when it auto-shoves back

Tyaldan9 votes

The real problem with that is if im getting crushed so hard in lane that its perfect for a gank (ie they are right on my tower) then its potentially deadly to shove the lane, and trying to refreeze risks handing over the small advantage that the gank gave. I agree that if you are trying to take tower though theres no reason to ping backs on a jg, esp when you have like 3 waves on your side and the enemy jg is the other side of the map.

KingKong23502 votes

If youre at that much risk, just let the jungler know since hes on your side of the map. Counter ganks are dope

Surr20plz3 votes

{quoted}

Just push it under their tower and you can freeze again when it auto-shoves back

Bronze does not understand this.

Ad Vitam Aeterna4 votes

The highest you've ever been is low silver and it shows for reasons we've been replying to the OP with. Pushing it into their turret just makes it neutral, whereas in certain cases not pushing the wave allows for an actual freeze. Neither you or OP actually understand wave manipulation at a decent level.

Surr20plz2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ad Vitam Aeterna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NFMRrWwk,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2017-02-12T15:47:33.881+0000)

The highest you've ever been is low silver and it shows for reasons we've been replying to the OP with. Pushing it into their turret just makes it neutral, whereas in certain cases not pushing the wave allows for an actual freeze. Neither you or OP actually understand wave manipulation at a decent level.

People a lot better than you say yes push it.

Now you're invalidated.

Gtfo.

See how that works kiddo?

Ad Vitam Aeterna2 votes

Yet there are no people in this thread higher than me that are disagreeing with me. In fact their is a multi season diamond player that said basically the same thing, it's extremely situational. You make a claim without anything substantial to back it up, whereas I have and everyone else is. We use logical reasoning to explain how the OP doesn't understand wave manipulation, meanwhile you just make a false claim that better people than me say to push it. lol

Surr20plz2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ad Vitam Aeterna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NFMRrWwk,comment-id=000100000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-13T14:08:11.160+0000)

Yet there are no people in this thread higher than me that are disagreeing with me. In fact their is a multi season diamond player that said basically the same thing, it's extremely situational. You make a claim without anything substantial to back it up, whereas I have and everyone else is. We use logical reasoning to explain how the OP doesn't understand wave manipulation, meanwhile you just make a false claim that better people than me say to push it. lol

I said bronze won't understand this to OP.

Let's assume you're the #1 league player in the world.

If you're saying there is some situational time not to do it, again bronze will not understand that either.

gg

Stay in school.

Ad Vitam Aeterna1 votes

You were in agreement with the OP by your comment, which means you agreed with something that isn't true. OP is claiming a push into the enemy turret is always optimal which isn't true for all the reasons the rest of us have stated.

You clearly need to stay in school, lol. I graduated long ago and got a degree, I've reached the top 6 percent of the playerbase, peaking at the top 3 percent. Chances are I'm brighter than you.

Surr20plz2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ad Vitam Aeterna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NFMRrWwk,comment-id=00010000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-14T02:59:52.702+0000)

You were in agreement with the OP by your comment, which means you agreed with something that isn't true. OP is claiming a push into the enemy turret is always optimal which isn't true for all the reasons the rest of us have stated.

You clearly need to stay in school, lol. I graduated long ago and got a degree, I've reached the top 6 percent of the playerbase, peaking at the top 3 percent. Chances are I'm brighter than you.

I have 2 degrees. You should go get your Master's then maybe you'd understand what I'm talking about.

You failed to get the gist of OP's argument so you probably have aspergers. If this is how you spend your time I feel bad for you son.

Ad Vitam Aeterna1 votes

It's a dead giveaway that you don't have two degrees based on the fact that you haven't managed to ever get past low silver. Anyone with half a brain can reach Gold.

Surr20plz2 votes

It's a dead give away that you're a sperg lord if you equate intellect with elo.

Good day skippy, don't forget to wear your helmet.

Ad Vitam Aeterna1 votes

You've played over 300 games this season alone and the highest you are is silver 5 in Flex que. It doesn't take much intelligence to play the game at a gold level, yet you will never reach it. I could see if you don't try, but with the amount of games you've put in you definitely are.

Surr20plz2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ad Vitam Aeterna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NFMRrWwk,comment-id=000100000001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-15T23:20:46.972+0000)

You've played over 300 games this season alone and the highest you are is silver 5 in Flex que. It doesn't take much intelligence to play the game at a gold level, yet you will never reach it. I could see if you don't try, but with the amount of games you've put in you definitely are.

Ok spergy whatever you say kiddo.

Some people that design the game aren't even gold. They simply understand how to design a game. Eye hand coordination doesn't denote...

Actually forget everything I said my man, I wish you good luck in life. You'll need it :)

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

Only if you can time the push correctly.

Time it incorrectly and it either sets up a neutral wave or pushes against you.

Ad Vitam Aeterna1 votes

Doesn't work that way. If your laner can already get a perfect freeze going then by the time the enemy laner gets back to lane the wave will be in the optimal spot. If you push it while your laner could have already frozen it, then the enemy gets back when it isn't in the optimal spot for your laner and they can fight over control. It all depends where the lane is at after your gank. You've never left low elo and don't seem to fully grasp wave manipulation yourself, so not sure why you'd bother mentioning lower elo.

TCU Dushi1 votes

{quoted}

Just push it under their tower and you can freeze again when it auto-shoves back

It doesn't always "shove back" It highly depends on the amount of minions you are pushing in and how fast you push it in.

Quite often junglers mean well and they shove 2 waves under the enemy turret at a snails pace.

by the time both me and my lane opponent are back the wave is still gonna be frozen near the enemy turret for a while.

The Clever Clone1 votes

Why would you need to freeze if they enemy laner is dead?

kamikazephyr16 votes

But muh 3 cs I would've missed anyway since I can't farm for shit >:O

SaltyKracka9 votes

Of course, the real problem is when you die in a gank, the jungler comes to pick up the spare, and then they decide to half-assedly push the wave.

Viktor Von Lazer4 votes

{quoted}

Of course, the real problem is when you die in a gank, the jungler comes to pick up the spare, and then they decide to half-assedly push the wave.

Definitely this ^ right here, I don't die to a gank often, but when I do my jungler thinks it's a good idea to freeze the wave right next to the enemy turret, so now I have joy of being without flash as they the daring me to walk up so they can full combo my flashless butt and have their jungler jump on me like fresh meat.

LordKentravyon4 votes

I get annoyed when im strugging in a lane but not feeding They gank and get the kill (awesome no problem here) Than take a wave. So when all done and well you haven't caught up wne your back to needing help again. (This is mainly an issue with junglers who can just clearl the wave regardless of any attenpts to contest it, e.g a YI Q instakilling most of it etc...)

Auroramancer4 votes

Not always.

I have had times where I'm in a solo lane and getting dominated (but not dying), and my jungler pulls off a successful gank w/o either of us dying.

But here's the problem: If my lane opponent, whose had such heavy 1v1 kill pressure on me, has biased the lane minions in such a way that they will push toward my tower (but not immediately), and I have to Recall so that I don't risk dying to the enemy jungler in 1 hit, then I don't fucking want my jungler to push the lane for me.

Yeah, it's going to deny my lane opponent a wave of my minions, BUT the wave will freeze further away from my tower compared to if my jungler just left the wave alone.

Congratulations, you denied a wave of minions for my wave opponent, but now my lane opponent has more pressure on me and I'm more vulnerable to a revenge gank from the enemy jungler.

End of story: listen to what your laner wants, and don't fuck them over just because you think you know right.

rtbf761092713 votes

so many times I've helped push and then they dont even back. they just auto the tower while 20% hp and the enemy jungler comes to collect their free kill

k wìx3 votes

In my opinion, it's good AND bad... There are many reasons why you might NOT want the wave pushed. It really depends.

  1. Shoving the wave denies the adc experience and gold. This leads to a power imbalance, and could lead to the ADC dying once or twice bot lane.
  2. Being so close to the enemy turret invites a gank. If their jungler is on their game, you could inadvertently cause a death by giving him/her an easy gank. Doubly so if your support isn't up on his vision game.
  3. Laning closer to the enemy turret is inherently more dangerous. If they have a Thresh or Blitzcrank, this can be TERRIFYING.

All things considered, I do agree with your general observation - it usually is overall a better strategy to push and put damage on that tower, but remember, that isn't always the case.

Spaceman5pff2 votes

Generally the idea is that you push the lane into the tower then go to base.

Doing this will reset the wave (assuming you pushed worth your weight in dog shit and got the whole wave under tower) and give you a very advantageous buy (you bought on presumably equal cs + kill / assist gold + the extra wave you pushed)

Knalxz3 votes

You misunderstand OP. I'm not asking for a gank because I'm ahead I'm asking for one because this guy is handing me my ass and I need backup. Pushing the wave when I've had to hide under tower for the past 5 minutes isn't helping me at all.

Just let me farm...JUST LET ME FARM, STOP! NO! NO! I CAN'T GANK MID! THEY HAVE A LEBLANC! JUST LET ME FARM! Fuck it, I'll invade their jungle and pray I don't run into their Lee Sin who's been tearing into my ass with their top.

On top of that it doesn't help when I managed to get the lane to freeze perfectly for some yucko then have my jungler fail a gank then destroy the wave on his way out calling tax.

You literally didn't help at all.

Kirius Dark1 votes

Then you're missing the major points of ganks because proper junglers gank for winning lanes to get them further ahead and get clean kills. If you're losing lane hard and getting your ass handed to you then

  1. ganking for you wont do anything because at one point you vs opponent was even and you lost it, so ganking to get you "even" means you'll probably dump it away again
  2. ganking a fed opponent is a huge risk to feed him more

So the jungler isnt responsible for you nor should they even gank for you if you're getting ass pounded

Knalxz1 votes

If the jungelr is of equal power to the laner why wouldn't they gank them? Example.

If the losing laner is a 1 in terms of power and the winning enemy is a 3 and the jungler is a 2, wouldn't ganking make it an even fight? Now if the jungler is at a 3 like the enemy laner, you have an advantage leading into a kill allowing for the level 1 teammate to jump to level 2 while the enemy stays at level 3. Your team becomes overall more powerful.

It is without a doubt a greater risk to gank a powerful opponent but that's how the game works. What you've just said makes no sense because inevitability you'll end up having to fight that same feed opponent or someone else. I.E If top is losing hard, jungler ganks mid, mid get's time to roam and heads top and does the exact same thing that jungler could of done but later into the game. Or Mid goes bot, and gets more powerful while top continues to lose making that one enemy incredibly powerful and if they're powerful why wouldn't they help their own team?

So now you have a feed opponent ganking lanes getting their teammates even more power.

See, it's conceptually flawed. Even if you do believe that the playstyle you've listed to be superior in every way then it makes sense for you as a jungler to still go to that lane and hide because as you've said it's best for the jungler to attack the losing lane and you now have the ability to predict where the enemy jungler will be going. Hiding in a nearby bush to counter gank and kill them so they can't put pressure anywhere else on the map and free up objective control.

Abandoning a lane doesn't give you wins all it does is get an opponent and perhaps their jungler feed up then from that point own the laner and jungler could have their power transition into other lanes and BOOOM defeat. Only blind players don't share their power so unless the enemy are scrubs this isn't a problem, but if they're scrubs they likely won't have a lead, or can't defend against a jungler which gives a jungler even more reason to attack them.

Lexyy3 votes

You're forgetting one thing. It's low elo. Jungler who stays after a gank killing minions WANTS THE GOLD AND EXPERIENCE that's meant for mid. They are not that good at the game yet to think so much ahead. He is not thinking about pushing, he is not trying to help, he is simply thinking about himself and his gold. Chances are mid laner can push few minions on his own and doesnt need a jungler for that. The other thing is if the tower is pretty low and they can push it together. Then jungler should ping his idea so the mid knows what's going on (or the other way around).

Junglers in low elo just come uninvited when the enemy is not even in the lane, and steal freaking farm. Gtfo.

Twitch Chat2 votes

True if you can push fast enough to make the wave hit the tower. If you push and give the enemy top lane a free freeze fuck you.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

PSA: The jungler "helping" push your lane after a successful gank when you already had the lane frozen with no need to back is heavily detrimental to you.

PSA: The jungler "helping" push your lane after a successful gank when the enemy has TP up and is capable of returning before it reaches tower and causing a lane freeze at their turret is heavily detrimental to you.

Puttyblo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NFMRrWwk,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2017-02-12T04:45:55.687+0000)

PSA: The jungler "helping" push your lane after a successful gank when you already had the lane frozen with no need to back is heavily detrimental to you.

PSA: The jungler "helping" push your lane after a successful gank when the enemy has TP up and is capable of returning before it reaches tower and causing a lane freeze at their turret is heavily detrimental to you.

There's always a need to back.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Just got to lane, lane is frozen by my turret, ally jg ganks and we kill enemy, jg pushes, enemy TP's back and freezes at tower. Sitting in lane with 0 gold while minions are at enemy turret.

No need to back.

Puttyblo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NFMRrWwk,comment-id=001500000000,timestamp=2017-02-12T05:40:44.492+0000)

Just got to lane, lane is frozen by my turret, ally jg ganks and we kill enemy, jg pushes, enemy TP's back and freezes at tower. Sitting in lane with 0 gold while minions are at enemy turret.

No need to back.

How can you have 0 gold after you just killed someone + shoved a wave and have access to enemy jungle + second wave of minions. That alone is a refillable pot or even a 350 gold item. Pretty good reason to back. Even then I highly doubt your enemy mid gold laner has a fucking clue how to freeze a lane, let alone how to macro mid lane to his advantage, especially considering I watch D4 mid laners act like fucking monkeys and don't even know how to do it. Additionally, it gives you back advantage + teleport abuse allowing you to back and forcing him to unreliably teleport and if he freezes the wave it opens the opportunity to lane gank with 0 direction indicated beyond

"?" "Idfk man."

So now, you get to do funky shit like lane gank top lane, or go through the jungle and kill enemy junglers, or even flank your own enemy mid laner from an awkward direction with your jungler, or even 4 man bot lane.

But I mean, you can keep sitting under your turret with an imaginary "0" saying you have no need to back and you're fucked and have nothing to do like a stereotypical gold player/low plat player :).

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Who ever said we were mid? Glad to see you're being unreasonable and bringing rank into this though, typical boards -__-

Covert Ops Gnar1 votes

When you come in for a gank, take the kill, then clear my entire wave, then leave without going for tower, is not fucking helpful

I lose CS and XP as much as the enemy laner

the only one gaining anything is the jungler who's gonna throw the game anyways

Gibberwatt1 votes

Boi, you get the assist monies, assist xp, and share the xp/monies from the minion wave. you also get either a tp or free whacks on the enemies tower. how is that not beneficial to you? like, damn, do you want the whole thing served to you?

Covert Ops Gnar1 votes

{quoted}

Boi, you get the assist monies, assist xp, and share the xp/monies from the minion wave. you also get either a tp or free whacks on the enemies tower. how is that not beneficial to you? like, damn, do you want the whole thing served to you?

I get 100g, lose my wave XP and gold, am forced to recall since I have nothing to clear and too low hp to go for tower.

Wow really helpful.

Atleast the greedy fucking jungler can get a nice 600g and then continue to afk farm the jungle.

Kirius Dark1 votes

You dont lose that exp. You got some bonus exp from the kill and share the minion exp while the opponent gets ZERO from the waves he just lost IF you shove to tower. If you didnt shove to tower and gets back to the same waves he will lose nothing, hence you shove to tower

Covert Ops Gnar2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Level 18 Feeder,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NFMRrWwk,comment-id=0019000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-12T19:49:18.486+0000)

You dont lose that exp. You got some bonus exp from the kill and share the minion exp while the opponent gets ZERO from the waves he just lost IF you shove to tower. If you didnt shove to tower and gets back to the same waves he will lose nothing, hence you shove to tower

In total, I gain 100g in total, i can 1/4 a level as a result i lose lane control and 20cs.

If I'm full hp when enemy laner dies and they have huge wave, I let that push and I hold it just outside my tower range and make him lose CS and keep mininions pushed to my tower.

If I'm low I push to enemy tower and recall.

However, if fucktard jungler comes and clears my stack of 20 minions that I've been saving to control lane, makes my lane push, I lose all my CS, get no tower damage, and fucks me over because he needed an extra 200g from my lane.

Kirius Dark1 votes

If you're able to kill the other laner with 100% - WHY ARE YOU NOT SHOVING TO TAKE TOWER

Farm farm farm farm does nothing for your team and waste for your jungler to even come when the entire point of the game is to take objectives. An assist is 150g, how did you just gain 100???? Enemy kill plus all the shared waves is just 1/4 a level?? You lost lane because your opponent got ganked???? WTF are you doing?

How are you even comprehending that you're doing tower damage when you're freezing AT YOUR TOWER

Covert Ops Gnar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Level 18 Feeder,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NFMRrWwk,comment-id=001900000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-12T20:20:36.379+0000)

If you're able to kill the other laner with 100% - WHY ARE YOU NOT SHOVING TO TAKE TOWER

Farm farm farm farm does nothing for your team and waste for your jungler to even come when the entire point of the game is to take objectives. An assist is 150g, how did you just gain 100???? Enemy kill plus all the shared waves is just 1/4 a level?? You lost lane because your opponent got ganked???? WTF are you doing?

My jungler takes away everything for me to gain. It'd be the same as if the enemy just recalled, except I lose all my cs.

How are you even comprehending that you're doing tower damage when you're freezing AT YOUR TOWER

You have no idea how to control a wave lol. I just finished a game where the enemy jhin had 30cs to my 160 because I froze at my tower, killed him, then was able to take tower in one push.

Kirius Dark1 votes

If the enemy recalled they'd be losing exp faster the more minions of yours you get to die, fastest way is to have tower blow them up. The opponent also gets zero exp when recalling or dead so that's a net gain for you

If it takes you to get 160 CS to take first tower thats extremely late and you're still running the old farm farm farm game when a good player could have had tower FB so much earlier with many more kills

Covert Ops Gnar2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Level 18 Feeder,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NFMRrWwk,comment-id=00190000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-12T20:34:58.104+0000)

If the enemy recalled they'd be losing exp faster the more minions of yours you get to die, fastest way is to have tower blow them up. The opponent also gets zero exp when recalling or dead so that's a net gain for you

If it takes you to get 160 CS to take first tower thats extremely late and you're still running the old farm farm farm game when a good player could have had tower FB so much earlier with many more kills

short sighted. I can make them lose 3x more waves by feezing

Kirius Dark1 votes

kid, you build titanic hydra and IE on Garen with 100% loss in ranked. You aren't making anyone else but yourself lose

Covert Ops Gnar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Level 18 Feeder,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NFMRrWwk,comment-id=0019000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-12T20:41:53.060+0000)

kid, you build titanic hydra and IE on Garen with 100% loss in ranked. You aren't making anyone else but yourself lose

Kid you're silver. You aren't making anyone else but yourself lose

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

Fuck that, as darius I can solo shove the wave in a few seconds by myself, get all the gold to get me snowballing, and soak all the xp for the same reason.

As nasus, I need the ability to take whatever big wave is left and let it freeze outside my turret for maximum stack potential. This is assuming the gank is successful and I have a nice chunk of hp and mana left over.

Kaioko1 votes

It's also a high ELO issues but for different reasons. There are several times when you as a laner are aware that pushing the lane WILL NOT be beneficial to you because you could not be going back; because you know how long the lane is going to push; because you know the opposing jungler is going to be there and freeze it etc...

At the end of the day, junglers have a complete different skill set than laners. I personally don't understand jungle pathing, ganking pressures and objective controls as well as junglers, but as a laner I understand my wave control much better than a jungler ever could. If I ping you to back because I know pushing the lane will put me at a disadvantage, please actually listen.

More from Gameplay

More by Eedat