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There's one change Riot could make to make Dynamic Queue WAY better.

WoonStruck··111 votes·4,038 views

Premades should be hit with matchmaking penalties like Duos used to be in the old system.

The old system hit you with an effective 'penalty' to make up for A) Communication B) Consistent synergy C) The possibility of a high MMR player giving an advantage to a low MMR player. These are all completely reasonable, and that penalty should not have been removed.

More players=bigger penalties. Premades get normal MMR gains/losses based on their group MMR (after adjustment).

The solo players get LP/MMR gains based on the MMR of each individual player, including the premades. Because the premade players are lower than their adjusted group MMR, this makes it so solos are rewarded for winning with low MMR players and not punished for losing with them as a result of the system.

Best part? It encourages more cooperation between solos and premades because the SOLO players are rewarded for winning with that premade.

It goes the other way as well. The solo players could be considered 'mentors' of sorts in nearly every case (except high elo smurfs). This means the premade should be a little more likely to cooperate with the solo.

It still wouldn't be a perfect system, but it'd be a huge improvement over what we have now, especially since it'd make boosting a little harder.

If you have any suggestions, please voice them below. :)

91 Comments

Athenes Lulu39 votes

I'm still supporting the "let everyone know who is premade" idea.

This at least lets solo players know the kinds of things to expect, though just as beneficial to premades. So in the end, it's a win-win for both.

######And also lets us know if Riot is doing its job at matchmaking.

WoonStruck10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancerous Lulu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NBLVtPys,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-04-25T18:19:25.940+0000)

I'm still supporting the "let everyone know who is premade" idea.

This at least lets solo players know the kinds of things to expect, though just as beneficial to premades. So in the end, it's a win-win for both.

######And also lets us know if Riot is doing its job at matchmaking.

If my suggestion went through, it would practically be required in order to get that 'mentor' mentality out of the Solo.

That said, either way, everyone should be able to know who's pre-made. That information being hidden, by force mind you (rip LoLNexus), just makes the entire thing shady...

VasilisGreen1 votes

what do you mean "by force"?

GaleWinUnleashed3 votes

Riot asked all third-party systems to remove that information from their display. Perhaps removed it from the API entirely so it's not even accessible.

VasilisGreen1 votes

so that's why lolnexus doesn't show premades anymore.... Do you know that for a fact? is it officialy stated? just to make sure

WoonStruck2 votes

LoLNexus had a disclaimer on their site and there was a bunch of drama on the boards over it.

CrazyBG91 votes

I may be unranked scrub, but wouldn't that just tell premades who to gank?

Athenes Lulu4 votes

That also tells non premades who to beware of.

That's been a thing with people with matching names for the longest time anyways.

T RexHasTinyArms2 votes

Yes and no, bc if you just assume they will gank you and put up a ward at the time the jungle should be done w/ first clear then they waste time and your group gets ahead (also it would mean if they camp the solo they are camping the highest mmr (ie highest win rate vs better opponents so probably more skilled mechanically or knowledge wise) player because the premade has an adjustment for being premade and is lower individual mmr players).

UrPalAl1 votes

The only thing I'm worried about is that people will start using it as an insult like: "shut up noob UR in a premade!"

That's the only reason I'm on the fence about it right now, it might create ununification where it's not needed.

Athenes Lulu2 votes

That's long been a thing before DynamicQ exists.

People troll duos for the sake of being duos.

UrPalAl1 votes

Right, but we don't flat out say they're duos.

Athenes Lulu2 votes

RIP people are not allowed to have matching IGNs.

Daen25 votes

To an extent, I don't feel premade balance vs other premades/solos is the problem. The issue with Dynamic Queue for Ranked, as I see it, is that within a premade there can be a huge variation in player skill. Let's say, for example, that I'm Gold I. I can queue with my Silver V friend, and everyone else in that group can be between Silver V and Gold 1.

Now, let's make a few arbitrary assumptions:

  • Gold V is 1500 MMR
  • Each Division is 100 MMR

This means then that a premade can have MMRs ranging from 1000 (Silver V) to 1900 (Gold I).

Let's say I have a 4-man premade, and we have the following team distribution:

  • Top Lane - Gold I (1900 MMR)
  • Jungle - Gold I (1900 MMR)
  • Mid Lane - Silver V (1000 MMR)
  • Marksman - Silver V (1000 MMR)

This puts our average premade MMR at 1450, so our solo player will likely look like the following:

  • Support - Silver I (1450 MMR)

Let's say that the other team is organized in the same way, a four man premade with one solo, and we have the following team distribution:

  • Top Lane - Silver V (1000 MMR)
  • Jungle - Silver V (1000 MMR)
  • Mid Lane - Gold I (1900 MMR)
  • Support - Gold I (1900 MMR)

This, like the first, puts our average premade MMR at 1450 with the following solo player:

  • Marksman - Silver I (1450 MMR)

If we assume these two teams, here are all the matchups:

  • Top Lane - Gold I vs Silver V
  • Jungle - Gold I vs Silver V
  • Mid Lane - Silver V vs Gold I
  • Marksman - Silver V vs Silver I
  • Support - Silver I vs Gold I

Every single one of these matchups is extremely imbalanced, with the best case scenario being roughly a full Tier between opponents (Marksman & Support) and every other matchup being almost two entire Tiers apart. The overall game is balanced, since each team has an average MMR of 1450, but every single matchup in the game is very uneven, statistically.

By contrast, solo queue doesn't use any averaging with premades since there aren't any. Every player is matched into the game based on his or her individual MMR, so the matchups would be far more likely to look something like this:

  • Top Lane - Gold V vs Silver I
  • Jungle - Gold V vs Silver I
  • Mid Lane - Silver I vs Gold V
  • Marksman - Silver I vs Silver I
  • Support - Silver I vs Gold V

Much more balanced, overall, as the worst case scenario is now one Division apart rather than nine.

TL;DR: Compared to pure solo queue, Dynamic Queue is straight up impossible to make as closely competitive from a mathematical perspective.

McKeifus3 votes

Which inherently reduces the fun factor of the game in general.

Daen4 votes

{quoted}

Which inherently reduces the fun factor of the game in general.

Depends on who you ask, I suppose, but personally I do feel that these sorts of imbalances ruin what I actually like about playing competitively.

When doing something competitive, the ideal circumstance is for everyone participating in each instance of competition to be as close in skill level as possible. Dynamic Queue doesn't do this, since unlike pure solo queue it enables the player to allow wide varieties of skill level before even starting the competition instance.

Laughing Cupcake8 votes

This post perfectly explains my problem with Dynamic Queue. I don't have a problem with being a solo player in a premade, it's the crap shoot of horribly uneven match-ups that lead to stomps one way or the other in every lane.

Daen3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hextech Jayce,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NBLVtPys,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2016-04-26T03:26:19.169+0000)

This post perfectly explains my problem with Dynamic Queue. I don't have a problem with being a solo player in a premade, it's the crap shoot of horribly uneven match-ups that lead to stomps one way or the other in every lane.

Agreed. I haven't really had many bad experiences with premades to be honest, the part that really bothers me is the fact that Dynamic Queue is so much more likely to have imbalanced matchups than pure solo queue ever would be.

This whole thing is totally not even including the rampant abuse potential when considering smurfs in DQ, which isn't even possible to begin with in pure solo queue unless breaking account sharing rules.

Supreme Senpai697 votes

Finally, someone who actually explains the problem. Upvoted. I'm tired of seeing all the QQ posts about premades being the sole reason they lost. Premades in dynamic queue is an issue, sure, but people keep using it just as an excuse for their loss/rank and a way to get upvotes. This is a legitimate issue with math and everything.

Daen3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Revan Senpai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NBLVtPys,comment-id=00050002,timestamp=2016-04-26T06:16:13.753+0000)

Finally, someone who actually explains the problem. Upvoted. I'm tired of seeing all the QQ posts about premades being the sole reason they lost. Premades in dynamic queue is an issue, sure, but people keep using it just as an excuse for their loss/rank and a way to get upvotes. This is a legitimate issue with math and everything.

I appreciate that, and it's exactly how I feel about it as well. I think that people's complaints about premades ruining their experience are valid, certainly, but I think they also drown out the message of why Dynamic Queue is such a problem when it comes to competitive integrity.

It's literally impossible for Dynamic Queue to be as competitive as pure Solo Queue, and this is an inarguable fact that I haven't really seen anyone discussing in any particular detail.

Akeydel2 votes

quick typo, i believe you meant the support on the team on the left in the first example to be silver I not V

Daen2 votes

{quoted}

quick typo, i believe you meant the support on the team on the left in the first example to be silver I not V

Great catch, and it should be fixed now!

The Deckowner12 votes

Rito made the system to ENCOURGE people play in groups. it is unfair for us solo players, but rito certainly wont handicap their premade groups.

WoonStruck7 votes

They're talking about wanting to improve solo experience.

There's effectively no way to do this without A) Removing 4+1 scenarios B) Solo Queue C)Giving absurdly long queue times to premades to allow solos to be prioritized with other solos.

The changes I suggest means 4+1 would be even less likely than now due to the penalty while still allowing it to be an option. Happy days for solos.

The system would make it much more like Solo Queue, but with the added touch of Solos being expected to 'mentor' players, encouraging less toxicity. With some players it would create toxic behavior, due to playing with lower MMR teammates, but it'll be that much easier to weed out as a result. They would rest easy knowing they'll get extremely diminished LP losses at the very least.

This does nothing to adjust the queue times negatively for solos or premades either. In fact, it'd improve the Queue time for higher MMRs, as the allowed 'MMR gap' would likely increase the higher up in MMR you go.

You could say "it'd be impossible for premades to climb", but you have two extra tools that you're not utilizing if you fail to climb: communication and familiarity. You shouldn't be doing premades in ranked if you lack those two things.

The Deckowner10 votes

or we can just bring back solo queue and remove dynamic queue.

Kensue6 votes

[deleted]

The Deckowner14 votes

not handicapping solo players? what about: communication barrier between premade and solo queue? getting camp by enemy premade?without help from premade in your team? toxicity from the premades? hextech reward bonus for premades?

Mr Fidori1 votes

I'm not saying solo players don't have these disadvantages (although it's easier to climb solo), but these are all occurrences that can happen, not consistent factors.

In the event that you are with a premade, which happens sometimes, consider the following:

  1. Duos in the old system had the same advantage, and most premades are duos even still now.
  2. It can teach you how to avoid being ganked, and ward. It's simple, and stops you from getting camped.
  3. More often than not, if there's a premade working against you, your premade will help. Those of us with friends still want to win.
  4. Yeah, you got me with hextech stuff. It's an insignificant thing, but it does favor playing with friends.

Most of the things people complain about have been around, and aren't directly tied to Dynamic Queue.

Fovere3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Fidori,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NBLVtPys,comment-id=0000000100000001,timestamp=2016-04-26T15:37:17.343+0000)

I'm not saying solo players don't have these disadvantages (although it's easier to climb solo), but these are all occurrences that can happen, not consistent factors.

In the event that you are with a premade, which happens sometimes, consider the following:

  1. Duos in the old system had the same advantage, and most premades are duos even still now.
  2. It can teach you how to avoid being ganked, and ward. It's simple, and stops you from getting camped.
  3. More often than not, if there's a premade working against you, your premade will help. Those of us with friends still want to win.
  4. Yeah, you got me with hextech stuff. It's an insignificant thing, but it does favor playing with friends.

Most of the things people complain about have been around, and aren't directly tied to Dynamic Queue.

Except premades tend to destabilize the experience by acting as a single unit, in terms of behavior, for that match. Instead of 1 bad, uncoordinated player, or elite professional, you have 3 of them. They skew the experience in one direction or another (and win/loss isn't the only aspect of the game affected, overall tone/toxicity, communication, etc).

Fovere5 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NBLVtPys,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-04-25T17:50:07.202+0000)

Rito made the system to ENCOURGE people play in groups. it is unfair for us solo players, but rito certainly wont handicap their premade groups.

Force is not the same as encourage

ZeeWolfZ12 votes

Delete it. GG

10/10

chipndip14 votes

Or Riot could cut the bullshit and allow people to communicate with comms in-game without 3rd party assistance.

They're the ones that said they wanted this game to be equivalent to basketball or some other sport somewhere down the line, right? If a solo player wants even a shot at being able to stand against a 3+ premade group, he'll need comms. Communication is a very major factor coming into play here, and Riot should be fixing that if they have the power to. Otherwise it'll always be unfair.

McKeifus3 votes

I really don't need to hear some 12 year old prepubescent idiot telling me to drink gasoline. The social clubs are a step in the right direction, but really full on guilds would be better. It would completely destroy solo LoL as we know it, but give us a better way to team up. If this is what they want - people playing in premades - and they are going to shove it down our throats, then just go all the way.

Goosetard4 votes

As far as I know, they already are.

WoonStruck5 votes

They (essentially) removed premade matchmaking penalties with the addition of Dynamic Queue.

Goosetard6 votes

No way... what in the world? Why in the fuck would they do that?!

I mean I always thought the penalty could work in really counterintuitive ways (ex: I queue with a friend who's lower rank, we inflate the lobby MMR and everyone besides me loses their matchups) but it was sound in principle because it helped alleviate boosting shenanigans

What the hell riot?

WoonStruck4 votes

Yeah. It really doesn't make much sense.

Goosetard3 votes

Not that I think you'd lie to me, but do you have a reputable source/link? I gotta hear this from the proverbial horse's mouth

WoonStruck2 votes

Which information are you looking for? I'll try to dig it up.

No guarantees, since its dated info now and likely not archived, but there are plenty of videos, articles, etc that explain why duo queue was bad for climbing, and its pretty obvious that those factors no longer have a significant impact as they have before.

Goosetard2 votes

Specifically that the mmr "penalty" used to exist in duo queue but was removed for queuing with 1 or more people in dynamic queue. Don't trouble yourself too much, just wondered if you knew of a link to a post offhand or something.

BigPooStorm4 votes

Or they could give us voice comms already ffs. For the most popular game, it's sad as hell that they don't even have basic things in place like voice comms, especially when it's a team fucking game.

LatetotheRace4 votes

We could just remove DQ for plat and up? Solo/duo for the best of the best.

AwesomeChad3 votes

Riot should have 0 problems with this. It does NOT interfere with their plans and it incentivizes the solo player.

Akeydel2 votes

The MMR difference between team and solo play is already a factor in matchmaking. (its part 1 of "How Does Matchmaking Work Right Now?" and yes its a little outdated since the removal of dominion, but it's quite clear that it was updated after DynamicQ)

It's only because of the polarizing stigma around the phrase "Dynamic Que" that people assume the absolute worst about the current system.

KarmasPolice2 votes

So if you premade as 4, the solo player that goes on a ride with you has to suffer the same MMR penalties..yes very fair.

Akeydel1 votes

Look this post suggested adjusting MMR based around teams. The reality is, that's the case now.

I'm trying to spread information so you can fuck right off with your sarcasm and your strawman.

KarmasPolice4 votes

I wasn't trying to be crud, the fact is, is that this article is from today. While it's good that they are trying to solve those problem, their solutions are insufficient.

WoonStruck2 votes

This directly describe any MMR penalty in regards to Dynamic Queue.

All their 'article' says is that group MMR is adjusted to the average MMR of the players in the premade.

Before that was the case as well, but you received additional MMR as a 'penalty' so you get matched against harder opponents relative to your individual MMR.

Back when Solo/Duo existed, there was a noticeable difference between being solo and duo, and that little boost to premade MMR was the difference.

Akeydel1 votes

From the article:

If the player is queued with a pre-made team, the system will adjust the MMR of the team accordingly. In most cases, we have found pre-made teams out-perform teams composed of unconnected players.

It is NOT simply an average. NOWHERE does it say it is an average.

WoonStruck2 votes

And it doesn't say specifically that it raises the MMR. Nor does it say the value.

Its essentially irrelevant because you have no idea how much, and its DEFINITELY way less significant than the penalty premades got during solo/duo every other season. Insignificant enough to essentially be nil.

**Basically, there was a dramatic decrease in the penalty that was in place previously. We don't know if there's a penalty at all (Riot has lied about numbers before), but its definitely less than what was in place, regardless. **

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