So I think I have the solution to vayne and other hyper carries

Jefftiffy·Sep 6, 2015·10 votes·865 views

Let's move BotRK's cost up to 3400. It should give people more breathing room against people like Vayne also drop the damage on recurve bow to 5.

This is mostly to delay people like Vayne and the abusers of sated. It will give at least another 30-45s of breathing room given perfect farming and hitting recurve will drop the effectiveness before Botrk giving even more room to fight back. I think what is so bad right now is that the build path got buffed. Before you would hit maybe 24% AS and the bildgewater, but now you hit 30% AS and add in an extra 10 damage. That means a lot early game. And if you hit recurve you also help push back Kalista's spike.

Honestly I think the problem with Vayne is she just ramps up much faster than she used thanks to build of botrk improving on top of the healing added to its damage.

14 Comments

Grey Deaf OrthroSep 6, 20153 votes

How about nerfing Vayne's ability to abuse BotRK instead? That sounds better.

JefftiffySep 6, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Grey Deaf Orthro,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NAzkJq2z,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-06T03:41:34.400+0000)

How about nerfing Vayne's ability to abuse BotRK instead? That sounds better.

I think her current state is mostly fine. Maybe a love tap to her flat true damage. But I think it will help push her spike back enough and take a little bit of power of her early game as well. Worst case scenario we also bump up bildgewaters cost to push it back a bit more without changing BotRK's new cost.

Grey Deaf OrthroSep 6, 20156 votes

Hwo about, give her damage a Lv scaling instead of points into ability, like they did with Jinx and Azir.

JefftiffySep 6, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Grey Deaf Orthro,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NAzkJq2z,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-06T03:59:30.696+0000)

Hwo about, give her damage a Lv scaling instead of points into ability, like they did with Jinx and Azir.

Then what does she do with the ability, it might as well not even exist. It isn't her passive. Jinx at least gets the rocket range by leveling Q. What would vayne get? The % hp higher and the flat damage the same? Because it would be really weird if they changed it that way. I think we are better off sticking to trying to slow her late game and give people more time to abuse her in lane. I want Vayne to be balanced not broken and or underpowered. I want somewhere where there is a middle ground where you can say if Vayne got ahead its not necessarily her fault.

{quoted}

Not sure this would help much. As mentioned, it's build path got buffed pretty well. But in addition, it's the only adc item rush that has sustain as part of its build path. Triforce or IE rush has to delay their build if they want sustain (and both items are already more expensive than bork.), not sure 200g to its cost would fix it well.

I mean that's why I said if this doesn't help enough you tap her flat true damage a little and bump up bildgewaters cost without changing cost of the BotRK are the nerfs. Or possibly even drop bildgewater's active CD to a higher one or less damage (maybe 75 instead of 100) or even flip it to physical damage. The only reason I kind of want to avoid touching Bildgewater as long as possible is because Hextech Gunblade builds out of it too, and I would prefer not to screw over another item.

Grey Deaf OrthroSep 6, 20152 votes

The problem isn't BotRK. The item has been throught a lot of changes and it is now in a healthy state. It's like the Kassadin with RoA argument. You are right that balancing Vayne is about delaying her transition into late game fantasy, the only way to properly do that is by forcing Vayne's stats into waiting for something. For instance, maybe the jinx path isn't the correct one, I agree. How about nerfing W's damage and making it stronger everytime Vayne leveled up her R. So her maximum potential will be reached at Lv16 no matter. If you're ahead you get a win-more because you reach Lv11/Lv16 faster and it's not Vayne's fault. Otherwise, your maximum damage potential needs to wait.

JefftiffySep 6, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Grey Deaf Orthro,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NAzkJq2z,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-06T07:14:25.114+0000)

The problem isn't BotRK. The item has been throught a lot of changes and it is now in a healthy state. It's like the Kassadin with RoA argument. You are right that balancing Vayne is about delaying her transition into late game fantasy, the only way to properly do that is by forcing Vayne's stats into waiting for something. For instance, maybe the jinx path isn't the correct one, I agree. How about nerfing W's damage and making it stronger everytime Vayne leveled up her R. So her maximum potential will be reached at Lv16 no matter. If you're ahead you get a win-more because you reach Lv11/Lv16 faster and it's not Vayne's fault. Otherwise, your maximum damage potential needs to wait.

I'm not sure if I remember this correctly, but I vaguely remember them giving her more AD to balance stuff out on her ult awhile back because of a bug with it and tumble caused her to do more damage than she was supposed to and they took the bug away. Maybe drop her ult from 30/50/70 to 20/45/70?

LuggSep 6, 20152 votes

I think that's a great idea. I have no problem with hyper carries and Sated junglers being strong LATE game. The sad fact is that they are super strong mid game.

TurquoiseYoshiSep 6, 20152 votes

Because a late game hyper carry should have a 1 item power spike at a lower level than many mid game champions who use IE or T-Force.

OrangesilkSep 6, 20152 votes

This is so dumb... do you really think Vayne is the problem we need to solve in the botlane?.

Mordekaiser ADC has a 65% winrate in plat+!!!!

65%!!!

That's MILES AHEAD of release Xin.

Vayne is listed as a counter because when Morde faces Vayne he's now only looking at a 58% winrate (rofl)

But by all means, go ahead, keep trying to solve problems that aren't problems.

JefftiffySep 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This is so dumb... do you really think Vayne is the problem we need to solve in the botlane?.

Mordekaiser ADC has a 65% winrate in plat+!!!!

65%!!!

That's MILES AHEAD of release Xin.

Vayne is listed as a counter because when Morde faces Vayne he's now only looking at a 58% winrate (rofl)

But by all means, go ahead, keep trying to solve problems that aren't problems.

Except devourer junglers as well as Vayne are currently problems right now. These would be love tap nerfs if anything just to push their late game a little bit further back. For laners its about 1-2 minion waves of gold for BotRK and 5 less damage on recurve. For junglers its just over 2 camps of gold and same effect on their devourer while also hindering people who build both to hyper carry. I think also people forgot about the fact they made it so you could heal off of BotRK damage so, maybe we are just now seeing the problem of this since you know tanks got nerfed.

MarthianSep 6, 20151 votes

They are both problem champions.

Grey Deaf OrthroSep 6, 20153 votes

Except Riot themselves said they considered Vayne in a not-so-healthy state and are looking for ways to balance her. Meanwhile, duo lane Morde is getting nerfed, all the while people are realizing how to play against it.

MarthianSep 6, 20151 votes

Not sure this would help much. As mentioned, it's build path got buffed pretty well. But in addition, it's the only adc item rush that has sustain as part of its build path. Triforce or IE rush has to delay their build if they want sustain (and both items are already more expensive than bork.), not sure 200g to its cost would fix it well.

JefftiffySep 6, 20151 votes

I love when people complain about people who have nerfs on the PBE in a thread based on trying to balance current problems. This isn't just about Vayne, the whole point is to delay the power spike of people who build deverour and/or BotRK. I am only discussing Vayne because she is a problem, but she isn't broken. For her and many other champions their problem is that early game characters have been constantly nerfed and now we are dealing with the consequences. Pushing back an item gives a bigger window for early game and lowering build effectiveness helps smooth out the power curve on a late game carry (I'm not talking making it better, I mean making it what it is supposed to be).

Mordekaiser for instance has the problem of he has so much innate damage and sustain that he can easily go bruiser and dominate. On top of this they keep buffing him and saying "B...B...but it would be too much and he's too new". Sad thing is the problem is Mordekaiser now scales with everything. He scales with AD, he scale with AP, he scales with HP, he scales with objectives, he scales off other champions, he scales with armor and MR, and he scales with mobility. And to top it all off, his early game is better than average in bot lane. He is the perfect example of an overloaded champion, the only thing he doesn't have is a reliable true damage source and grievous (oh wait then there's ignite). The other champ who fits this bill is Ekko for similar reasons.