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Open Letter to Riot about removing Evelynn's Hybrid scaling

Support Evelynn··95 votes·3,528 views

Hello, this is a message to the Riot balance team. I just want to preface this by saying that I've been playing Evelynn since season 3, and since that time I have hit diamond every single season with her since season 5.

I have been playing through her ups and downs during that time and no matter what meta, no matter what kind of challenge I'd face game to game, one of the things that kept me playing this champion was the ability to continuously experiment with builds. I think Evelynn's strongest trait besides her stealth was her great mix of hybrid scaling.

When I first heard the rework was coming I was so sure you'd keep this in her kit since it was so core to her identity. You kept it with Corki, Katarina, Akali and even Miss Fortune. You fostered their hybrid traits instead of turning away from me, making it stronger in their identity. It's why I'm so shocked that you'd remove it from the original hybrid.

Please Riot, being stuck with one build for the rest of time is not something I want to see for my beloved champion. Please consider adding something to keep the feeling alive.

I know you may not have seen it but in the Evelynn discord and other places where Evelynn mains would meet up we'd always be talking about different builds, different ways to approach different metas, and there'd always be good debates on the best way to do it.

AD, AP, hybrid, on hit they all had their merits and it was always fun to hear how people made THEIR eve experience their own.

Thanks for your time.

99 Comments

Rikirie27 votes

Sion was also a hybrid champion. He was mostly known for being AP despite his kit clearly being that of an AD Bruiser. They changed his kit to where his AP central build wasn't a mainstay of his new identity. He is big and tanky and hits like a truck.

Evelynn is getting similar treatment. She isn't a scrappy fighter who has a big shield to stay in a fight. She uses a charm and huge burst then she GTFO. Having an atk speed and ad put onto her build detracts from her demon assassin identity. She isn't a scrappy fighter, she is an magic assassin.

Kloqdq4 votes

I built full AD sion. That shit with 100% lifesteal that worked on healing his team while being full damage at 4000 HP was busted.

Painted Celt2 votes

I mained the old Sion and I would build him like: item 3009 item 3153 item 3022 Aatma's Impaler item 3065 item 3075

It was actually really good. He could destroy anything that couldn't kite him or instantly burst him. His Q + item 3009 item 3153 item 3022 were his anti-kiting.

Good luck bursting someone with item 3022 item 3065 item 3075 and infinite health stacking.

Aatma's Impaler made him a hyperscaler due to his infinite health scaling.

I wish Aatma's still existed and that Sion had kept some sort of built-in drain-tanking.

Now back when I was a complete noob, I would use absolutely awful builds like this on Sion... item 3115 item 3115 item 3031 item 3046 item 3046 item 3046

AbiwonKenabi4 votes

The difference here is that Sion's old kit was a mess when it came to builds; he could build AD or AP, but either build would cause you to basically ignore 2 of his abilities. And both had major problems. AP would literally two shot people and AD had ridiculous attack speed with ridiculous life steal.

While Evelynn has had her own balance problems, her builds have all been some variation on a diver or assassin, which I feel are already two classes that go hand and hand.

RainbowIcee1 votes

"Demon assassin identity" that says or does nothing for the game at all besides your fantasy. Does that even mean anything in the game? No, so what the heck is a demon assassin identity. She's there to kill, so long as she does it no matter how she's doing her purpose, her identity is her kit and the ability to use it to kill champions is up to the players. That being said having an AD scaling does not take away anything from her it gives her an option. She can still be AP killer, she can just also be AD killer in the hands of some players.

Also old Sion was like having 2 different champions in the game as depending on his build his gameplay changed drastically which was entirely unique in both the game and even hybrids. He killed with the shield explosion so timing it was everything when he was AP, as AD his best bet was turning the tide in a fight thanks to his ult and recovering a ton of health.

Jorencice13 votes

It means she will be easier to balance.

Its tough to balance something that can use every item in the game.

Support Evelynn11 votes

{quoted}

It means she will be easier to balance.

Its tough to balance something that can use every item in the game.

So is a lot of shit in this game. Is tough to balance really an excuse? Screams laziness.

Divewing5 votes

Rather arrogant to say that.

If eve became busted from abusing infinity edge and got nerfed for it, you'd then cry for buffs because she'd be "garbage tier".

Personally I think hybrid scaling is a relic of the games past, and it's something that you are simply attached to. It has no bearing or practical purpose in her kit/theme.

Rebonack5 votes

{quoted}

Rather arrogant to say that.

If eve became busted from abusing infinity edge and got nerfed for it, you'd then cry for buffs because she'd be "garbage tier".

Personally I think hybrid scaling is a relic of the games past, and it's something that you are simply attached to. It has no bearing or practical purpose in her kit/theme.

She rips people to shreds with her fucking claws while stabbing the shit out of them with spikes and hacking them to death with giant blade things.

If that doesn't imply a physical attacker then please by all means, explain the proper theme to me. Because making Eve scale off books while ripping faces off is about as congruent as Mage Garen.

FutureCreator2 votes

NidaleeNautilus Akali that's not how it works

KoKoboto1 votes

Pretty ignorant to say that. Even though champions like Elise and Evelynn have insane A/S steroids they can't run crit because melee range crit without kits that allow you to stay long in melee range are pretty horrible.

I do agree that hybrid scaling isn't thematic for most champions to be honest. Unless youre like a champion that is super Zen and masters the elements or something (can do everything, Ryze off the top of my head). However we cannot deny they removed a ton of decision making and the intuitive thought in building from Evelynn's kit by removing her hybrid scaling. As mentioned by OP, most champions build the exact same shit every game. Champions like Evelynn have options though and I can't imagine why Riot would remove those options from Evelynn.

Didn't make her busted in the past YEARS. Won't make her busted now. Same with Jax, Kayle, Teemo, who all build hybrid on-hit.

Divewing1 votes

The main issue this boils down to is the character and theme of a champion, which actually is subtly different.

Riot has shown preference to the theme and character (see Galio, WW and Urgot), while doing their best to preserve as much of what made them iconic in the first place in a balanced way.

I PERSONALLY prefer this, as I wouldn't like my champion to be defined simply as "can build whatever". The reason I play Azir is cos he is a freaking badass, and I STILL cannot find a video game with a character I like who is similar to Azir.

As far as dual scaling not making her busted in years, that's because Riot intentionally kneecapped her every time she came close to viability

KoKoboto2 votes

She's hovered around 50% since time. She's viable right now and has been viable since time.

Overlord Madge1 votes

she was even chosen in LCS with this kit by Moon.

yay nibbers4 votes

Tough to balance absolutely is a valid excuse. If they're completely redoing a champion, why would they make them tough to balance on purpose? Avoiding future headache isn't laziness, it's working smart.

Jet Sett1 votes

Working smart but at the cost of other's enjoyment? There's no right answer here.

UnboundHades1 votes

So right clicking is enjoyment got you

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

So right clicking is enjoyment got you

As opposed to smashing QWER with your face and calling it a day.

Eve wasn't a very mechanically challenging champion. She's about making strategic decisions rather than twitch-reactions.

And really, I don't think blowing people up from stealth is very compelling to play as or against. 's why I prefer Diver Eve. Still think Season 1 Eve sans her stun was a better design than any of the garbage we've gotten since.

UnboundHades1 votes

have you even seen her new kit?

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

have you even seen her new kit?

Yes.

You W someone, wait 2.5 seconds, E them, smash Q like a epileptic baboon, and then R away. Eve hasn't ever been known for mechanically demanding gameplay. She's not Zed.

Blakiepug3 votes

{quoted}

It means she will be easier to balance.

Its tough to balance something that can use every item in the game.

I would agree with you, but for some reason it seems like all of the champions without hybrid scalings are always the ones that are unbalanced. One of the best parts of League used to be that you could build almost any items you wanted and still be useful. Now Riot is pigeonholing as many champions as they can into set build paths. If they really want to limit player creativity like this, then they need to be able to take criticism.

Evelynn has had a healthy winrate for a long time as a hybrid champion. Sure, she was super annoying because of her perma-stealth mechanic but that has nothing to do with her being able to build both ap and ad.

Arya Starck12 votes

Please bring back her attack speed and AD scaling .. Hybrid was her identity, I agree, here's not many hybrid champs but she is one .

Wes the Mess18 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arya Starck,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NAfZwKhg,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-09-27T02:06:41.446+0000)

Please bring back her attack speed and AD scaling .. Hybrid was her identity, I agree, here's not many hybrid champs but she is one .

When I hear hybrid scaling I don't think of eve as 90% of the time she builds AP with not a single hybrid item in site while Jax and Kayle usually can get away with rageblade and gunblade

Eve's identity was assassination from stealth, or in most cases, unstealthing and dying as she had terrible scalings while nobody built her hybrid, just took AD reds, oh so hybrid

Support Evelynn7 votes

{quoted}

When I hear hybrid scaling I don't think of eve as 90% of the time she builds AP with not a single hybrid item in site while Jax and Kayle usually can get away with rageblade and gunblade

Eve's identity was assassination from stealth, or in most cases, unstealthing and dying as she had terrible scalings while nobody built her hybrid, just took AD reds, oh so hybrid

Evelynn has had many times where the mixed scalings really impacted her. I mean back when spirit items were still a thing she used the AD one almost exclusively. And even when she didn't, when diamondprox played her in competitive years ago he built Spectral Wraith and hexdrinker.

Not to mention she was also a big trinity/warrior user for the longest time as well.

Plus she most definitely uses gunblade now, it's pretty much her core in the current meta.

SH Azykan2 votes

I see more eve's in high elo and low elo that get a protobelt and lichbane in place of gunblade

Bob the Toastr5 votes

Don't forget this one: Akali

hhaavviikk8 votes

sorry but riot hates diversity in builds for champions, while their words say they like it their actions clearly show otherwise as is evident with all the reworks and nerfs they do

Dani El Pezglobo2 votes

hybrid champs are super hard to nerf, thats why 1 patch after des-rework kogmaw , he got nerfed super hard him ap facet , so he is only played as adc

hhaavviikk1 votes

{quoted}

hybrid champs are super hard to nerf, thats why 1 patch after des-rework kogmaw , he got nerfed super hard him ap facet , so he is only played as adc

but even just allowing optional fun builds, like AP miss fortune, couple months ago they nerfed the AP ratio on her Q for no reason whatsoever, was it ranked viable? no but it was fun to do with premades and yet they still nerf it, galio as well after the rework, I just don't like it.

Dani El Pezglobo2 votes

look at new champs , ap ratios are more and more low , look ornn only r 20 % ap, riot dont want hybrid champs no matter what , most likely post rework kayle ll be a full ap champ , and most likely akali ll be the same , so we ll only ezreal as an hybrid ( and lets see if they keep ap ezreal when w got reworked)

ChickenWrap7 votes

Guess you'll just have to play Shaco now. At least Riot won't ever remove his hybrid viability.

zaire901 votes

{quoted}

Guess you'll just have to play Shaco now. At least Riot won't ever remove his hybrid viability.

I tried playing ap on that dude idk how anyone manages to do it and ad is doable for me but he still feels like hes not doing as much damage as his other assassin buddies

DynamiteGazelle7 votes

Yuuuuuup. Totally agree.

You should post your comment in this other Eve thread so we can get some visibility to the AD issue: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/KEIsGYEq-can-eve-please-have-some-ad-scaling

ModCaptainMårvelous7 votes

It's worth noting that the examples you used (Corki, Kat, Akali and MF) never got FULL-ON entire VGUs. They've had changes, yes, but not to the scale that Evelynn has had.

That said, I wouldn't mind her hybrid scaling back. I do think it was likely removed because they had to balance Evelynn around 3-5 different, decent builds rather than 1-2 really good ones, but I'm not a rioter so I don't know the inner workings.

Support Evelynn3 votes

{quoted}

It's worth noting that the examples you used (Corki, Kat, Akali and MF) never got FULL-ON entire VGUs. They've had changes, yes, but not to the scale that Evelynn has had.

That said, I wouldn't mind her hybrid scaling back. I do think it was likely removed because they had to balance Evelynn around 3-5 different, decent builds rather than 1-2 really good ones, but I'm not a rioter so I don't know the inner workings.

Ok, Warwick then.

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

I mean, sure, they can give Eve the same treatment as Warwick. He was first designed without the AP scaling, just AD. And because people wanted it, they gave him AP scaling on Q.

But come on, it is really just a gimmick to hommage old times. No one is playing AP Warwick in a serious way, he just has 1 AP scaling on his Q, but his AS steroid and ult are still favouring AD. Warwick is basically exclusively built as an AD diver, getting some AD items and then tank.

So, if you want that, sure, they can do it. Inject 1 really low AD scaling to Eve's Q for you to recall the old times, while making you hella less functional if you are going AD Evelynn. But I doubt that this is what you want.

mirAcIe6 votes

Do you even know how Eve is played? First of all people do seriously play her as AD. And even in AP builds people go such items as Gunblade and Duskblade which synergize with her scalings insanely well.

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

I was just pointing out that calling Warwick as a precedent case doesn't really mean much, since AP Warwick is not really played or viable. He just has the AP scaling for the sake of it. And that is not what OP is aiming for, just like you here.

Support Evelynn3 votes

{quoted}

I was just pointing out that calling Warwick as a precedent case doesn't really mean much, since AP Warwick is not really played or viable. He just has the AP scaling for the sake of it. And that is not what OP is aiming for, just like you here.

I listed a lot more champions in OP. I think Cpt's argument of "not full scale reworks" was pretty bs.

Catastrop6 votes

I was really disappointed by this too, I'm really going to Dusk Force and on hit builds a lot.

BLACK REALM GOD4 votes

you cant deny that her kit was a bit clunky when trying to basic attack enemies and spamming Q. you'll still need attack damage for basic attacking since she's a jungler. you can't really take hybrid builds away from a jungler.

Nhifu4 votes

We needed more Junglers with a source of magic damage that weren't pure tanks.

LightIsMyPath3 votes

? Eve is a source of magic damage even now, with her ad scalings

Lady Hammerlock3 votes

At the very least, the second part and bonus damage of Q should have an AD ratio

Alongside her E and ult

Then again I can see how this could lead to her consistently building Gunblade

Rockem Sockm2 votes

They have never fostered it. They use it on certain champions to check how hard they scale like Kat.

Riot has repeatedly scaled down or removed hybrid scaling. It is too ridiculous to balance amd requires twice the work.

Kyunsei1 votes

Welcome to champion rework dude. They'll prolly add some AD scaling anyways, but you won't really be able to use them.

Bârd2 votes

item 3070 Malzahar

GrReaper961 votes

Aah good ol AD Malz. I remember my enemies going haha his E doesnt do shi- WTF I DIED???

Colgate Gator1 votes

Historically, all Hybrid building champions have been a nightmare to balance, which is probably why they're trying to steer clear from that niche.

Zerenza2 votes

Yeah but recently the only Hybrid that's a HUGE nightmare is Corki, any buffs and he becomes broken, any nerfs and he becomes a troll pick. But Akali, Katarina, Jax(this season) haven't been that big of an issue, yes if any of them get fed it's a big issue but that's true for any champion.

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