Can we just please revert Malzahar already

iTaLenTZ··135 votes·3,228 views

So on the PBE more changes for Malzahar that will dumpster him even more because they don't want him to be played in Proplay as support. Why do you keep wasting time and resources to keep muddling through a completely failed rework at every aspect before you take the only and final decision you will make eventually and that is to revert the entire cancerous rework. Pre rework he was NEVER played in pro play and NEVER played as support. You happy, community happy.

95 Comments

SweedishGunner29 votes

There have been so many revert Malz threads and I don't think a Rioter has responded to a single one.

It's like talking to a brick wall at this point.

ModAcademy Kayn6 votes

It's because they just don't do reverts, it only brings back a problem they want to solve regardless. Kog'maw is the only exception we've seen thus far, and I don't think Malz is going to be the second.

MetalGearTeemu9 votes

thats the thing tho, Malz wasn't a problem. he had a defined niche.

Unless that problem was "Matches up well against Zed" which was about the only notable thing he had going for him at the time. Wouldn't be new. They buried Veigar in a shallow grave because he shut down lee sin's mobility plays with the thunderdome.

ModAcademy Kayn6 votes

He was a problem though, and I don't see how people can't see it from a design perspective. Malzahar's laning is one of the worst experiences most people had to deal with Mobile assassin or mage. You have to deal with Waveclear that gives him back mana, as you're constantly pushed into turret, forcing you to spend your mana, which early game isn't as replenishable, if you want to push back.

His Ult stopped ANY aggression unless you outranged him completely like Xerath. Be it Zyra, Annie, or Zed, there was no opportune time to get him if you were facing a good Malzahar. The fact that his commonly built items were health-AP, as Roa, Rylais, and Liandries, means he certainly has enough time and ability to survive some burst if it means getting to you.

The very nature of Malazhar's kit I would not consider good design. There is zero room for outplay, and can be used to create very onesided uninteractive lanes that always end in your favor, since your mana sustain gives you the edge for staying in lane. You have an ability that is only useful if you use it with your Ult, his pool. His Ult removes any outplay that exists from dodging Q, so if he get's within range, you're fucked whoever you are.

And I can't take you seriously with that Viegar comment. Viegar's Cage was reworked because he'd walk up and insta-stun you from range, no matter who you were. If anything, Viegar's better against Lee now due to his ability to stop dashes.

deadlychuck9 votes

Mages tended to have no real issue against malz. They can normally clear just as fast, if not faster. Combine with long range CC and burst it was not hard to outplay a malz on most mages. Combine with the lack of mobility or defensive mechanics, he was an easy gank target for the jungle too, if you have any idea how to freeze a lane.

So yes, malzahar's laning phase was one of the worst experiences for most players, but that's only because most players are playing assassins mid now. Having someone who can reliable beat, or tie, a snowball heavy assassin in mid lane is** good from a design prospective**. It's just that riot is extremely bias, and moving forward malzahar would act as a barrier to their constant mobility and burst damage creep. Which was a good thing, because it meant it kept sustained long range damage champion relevant.

Xilixer6 votes

malzahar was only good in lane against people of similar range. say a yasuo, zed, leblanc or annie.

anyone with a bit more range than that can give malzahar hell. such as lux, xerath, vel'koz, ziggs.

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

Old Malz was most definitely a problem.

Rebonack9 votes

{quoted}

Old Malz was most definitely a problem.

Malz got two nerfs in his whole lifetime.

One was a bit of range off his Ult so it didn't out-range the rest of his spells.

The other was shaving a bit of damage off his Purple Puddle of Pain.

He wasn't a problem. No one complained about him ever.

Sexy Jack Rabbit3 votes

He wasn't so much a problem because he was boring af to play and you hardly ever saw him.

His gameplay was toxic af and people most definitely DID complain about him, it was just such a small percentage of people due to his terrible playrate.

You seriously have no idea what you're on about, and you're just following the circle jerk of "this new malz is trash", which yeah he is. But there's a reason why the old one got a rework in the first place.

People don't complain about Nunu or Skarner but they sure as hell have problems that put them in line for reworks.

TheWoollyMammoth9 votes

old malz was not boring to play, and he had a decent pickrate and dedicated fanbase.

The only people that complained about him where the yas's and zeds of the world.

Ya that reason is that he could kill riot's poster boys in lower elos, and that was it.

Perhaps it's circlejerk at this point. Perhaps it isn't. Either way, nobody on this forum knows malz as well as his old mains. and nobody in riot does either. So perhaps listening to the people that have always liked him would be a good general idea.

Voluug131 votes

preach

Most of the ''Old Malz was a problem'' circlejerk was started by Riot just to delete an assassin counter.

Rebonack6 votes

{quoted}

He wasn't so much a problem because he was boring af to play and you hardly ever saw him.

His gameplay was toxic af and people most definitely DID complain about him, it was just such a small percentage of people due to his terrible playrate.

You seriously have no idea what you're on about, and you're just following the circle jerk of "this new malz is trash", which yeah he is. But there's a reason why the old one got a rework in the first place.

People don't complain about Nunu or Skarner but they sure as hell have problems that put them in line for reworks.

I don't know what I'm talking about?

I was one of the guys who created the AD Malz build bottom lane over in Dominionland back in early Season 2. I've seen every single buff and nerf he's been through since League's inception. Malz had a three percent play-rate before the remake. He was a niche champion with a dedicated player base. He did two things well, push lanes and hard-counter Divers/Assassins. And that was perfectly fine.

The stated reason for Malz' rework was that he was too binary, both to play and to play against. The rework made the problem even worse.

I think I have reason to be irritated given that one of my favorite champs was removed from the game.

ModJango Mage1 votes

Well Velkoz got a rework too and if i remember since his release post mid season he was in the patch notes once, when they buffed his q range. He really didnt need a rework and even riot admitted it, so i dont think they had a good reasoning behind their reworks.

Voluug133 votes

He was reworked against literally everyone's screams that it was a bad idea, and they ended up half-reverting it anyways because his ult became trash. It was just an excuse to nerf his W.

NíbbaBíbba1 votes

don't down vote this man he speak the true true

deadlychuck8 votes

There is a difference between having problems which have been clearly defined, and giving yourself new problems which you have absolutely no idea how to resolve or identify.

Reverting him would at least put him back in a state which they are more familiar with and will be resolved faster while not destroying his identity.

MunchCrunchLunch8 votes

{quoted}

There have been so many revert Malz threads and I don't think a Rioter has responded to a single one.

It's like talking to a brick wall at this point.

same with thornmail buffs and ahri nerfs. they never respond. they never respond to a thread they can dispute or agree with because they know they are wrong but their purpose is to be wrong. maybe because its the easier of the three

for some reason things are held to different standards. don't know why though.

General Esdeath 4 votes

They only respond to meme threads/threads praising them

Sexy Jack Rabbit2 votes

Meddler has responded to Ahri nerfs. He said that whilst they're a lot of 'Ahri haters' they don't see any grounds to nerf her.

invisiblecat14 votes

We also thought having pings being muted was like talking to a brick wall, but I guess that brick wall had someone behind it listening the whole time

My Heartshaker27 votes

Like, it's not even a power shift -- it's a straight up nerf. They die to a single AA now. I can understand support nerfs, but just point blank nerfs with no power being shifted to his q or e is just straight up dumb.

NíbbaBíbba1 votes

I think the point of the voidling is so that he spawns one then ults so they stack up a ton, I don't think they were intended for lane harras

Cosmic Warper3 votes

{quoted}

I think the point of the voidling is so that he spawns one then ults so they stack up a ton, I don't think they were intended for lane harras

They don't multiply on champion hit anymore, but on w cast you can spawn up to 3 depending on the amount of previous spellcasts.

HolyLimits1017 votes

Not sure if anyone saw, but on the post for the PBE changes for Malzahar a rioter said on their twitter that more changes to the rest of his kit were coming for that patch to shift malzahar towards mid lane again

Dextix LT10 votes

Look, the longer you are here, the more you learn how arrogant Riot is, they rarely change anything because they think they know everything.

Just look at CertainlyT and his posts about modekaiser, sums up Riots mentallity pretty much.

"I know better than you plebs, so i am doing it MY WAY"

SociopathFriend9 votes

They're not going to rework him for a very simple reason- it will not make him a healthy champion.

Pre-rework the one and only real counterplay he had was to dodge his Q. Now, his power is budgeted into the voidlings. Constantly being nerfed mind you- but still healthier than his previous kit.

I don't like reworked Malz, I'll happily admit that, but I'm not going to say his old version was better. Not having a high winrate, playrate, or number of appearances in the pro scene- does not mean he was healthym

Beacon Academy5 votes

Old Malzahar

Immobile Vulnerable to CC Can only focus on one person with most of his kit Inherently squishy due to being a mage Pushes waves to towers

If you can't find counterplay in lane or in team fights with those facts, then I don't know what to say...

deadlychuck3 votes

Pushes waves to towers

Hell people act like this meant that malz could never be ganked, but if malz was doing this he had 3 courses of action, fall back to his tower, push with his minions, or roam to another lane.

Case 1: Abuse the other lanes, because mid lane doesn't need and can't be easily ganked. Case 2: Gank the shit out of him, because it's easy. Case 3: You know he's gonna be leaving lane about every 30 seconds, set up in a ganking position and punish him every time he tries to walk (or float) out of lane.

Voluug133 votes

I don't like reworked Malz, I'll happily admit that, but I'm not going to say his old version was better.

Malz never had this ridiculously mana efficient E->W lane clearing capacity the rework, his E didnt have enough damage to kill, much less last hit minions properly until level 7-9, and basically needed Malz to babysit his Es at AA range so they got those jumps and didnt push much because he was gank bait.

Old Malz wasnt capable of afk farming under tower until he bough a complete AP item at level 7, meanwhile the rework literally deleted the entire skillcheck that was E/mana/voidling managing and made an actual ultra safe. non-interactive laning pattern on E-W because New Malz can have 4+ times more voidlings for 1/10 the mana cost of ONE prerework voidling for every single minion wave with more or less assured mana returns because he has his personal minion wave to focus the E target. While having a lol-what-is-a-gank shield that also took away power from counterpicking him with every single ranged midlaner in the game.

Please tell how is old malz ''just as bad'' as rework malz. Please I am waiting.

Because there is literally no comparation lmao. All the rework did is delete his anti assassin power, make him WEAKER to QSS, and create an actual non-interactive laning. Literally solved zero of the inexisting problems Riot pretends that they exist, while failing at everything the rework was supposed to do (keep anti-assassin niche, delete the supposed ''uninteractive'' laning and reduce his weakness to QSS).

Karfuss6 votes

If Malzahar (or any mid laner for that matter) is being picked as a support, and you're now balancing them around that role, then you royally screwed up the rework.

They're arrogant. They've sunk time and money into reworks, so they'll keep pushing it as successful.

SociopathFriend1 votes

Riot specifically said they do not want Malz as support so no, he's not 'balanced' around it.

Dextix LT3 votes

Riot says a lot of things... Trusting them aint a good thing.

RottedApples4 votes

all i want to do is play old quinn.

Dreadlocks3 votes

Can Rengar get reverted too for similar reasons? <3

Azureee3 votes

Rengar LB Malz Zac reworks are actually disgustingly garbage for people that actually main/mained them champs but people who don't play them defend the reworks, quite funny tbh

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

It's almost like we don't want to deal with Old Leblanc and Rengar again...

Azureee13 votes

It's almost like I don't want to deal with Yasuo, Ahri, Ivern, Syndra, Darius, Graves, Lee, Janna, but don't cry for them to be reworked to garbage and actually play around them :)

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

The "play around" for those champs either weren't there, or made the champ absolutely useless. Play around for Rengar? Pink ward him, and suddenly he's useless. "Play around" for Leblanc, oh please tell me you found one, because she was absolute cancer to deal with. She's one of the star pupils of the "Don't come within my Range or else" Academy back then, with less time to react, and not needing to be near you for not even half the amount of time she has now.

The reworks gave others the ability to play around them. Leblanc doesn't insta-gib you anymore, needing to wait a second for her mark to appear. You now have time to play around her, you're given time to react and plan a counterattack. Rengar too, though Pink wards still reveal him, he has one of the longest stealths in the game. He can easily wait for you to drop the ward, wait for his team to engage, and then come at you from any angle. Even then, he has to choose between using his W for an escape, or using it to kill faster, and you can dodge his Q which allows playing around.

But please, tell me the play arounds the old versions had. They may have had some, but not nearly enough to justify what they could do.

Azureee6 votes

Magic resist? CC? Scaling? Shoving lane? Have you heard of any of that? Her Distortion was much slower pre rework, her waveclear sucked and ontop of that she fell off super hard while having a 47 percent winrate. What so old LB is just like Ahri and Syndra? Don't come within the range of a mage/assassin as a squishy or you die ? Wow what a surprise! Damn, I guess champions should deal no damage and everyone should be a tank right :) ?

The rework gave her uneeded waveclear. The rework gave her stronger burst. The rework shifted her power to a point and click Q. The rework gutted her mobility in favour of a point and click q. The rework has made her more broken in pro play. The rework has made her build stupid items to stay relevant. The rework gutted her most signature ability to do the same damage as an auto attack. The rework let her clear waves with a W > Q instead of a W>R which put her ult on CD making roams slower and gave her counterplay.

But please, tell me that the old LB was more broke. She is braindead to play right now and there is a reason she is still broke in pro play right now and is still good in soloq post-rework. You are just happy she isn't as strong in lane anymore be honest.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

Wait seriously? 1 auto or just 1 hit?

That's frigging ridiculous, how am i supposed to push mid if my opponent just autos the minion the moment i cast it?

I was just starting to get the hang of playing him mid again despite the difficulty of it but now this? :(

Flemman2 votes

it work for yorick ghoul, that will make him a niche champ like he used to be

Thefrostyviking4 votes

Issue is that Yoric can spawn in his maiden at 6 ensuring that he has at least a few ghouls+ the actual maiden.

If malz loses a minion then that's all.......

It's really kinda stupid since roughly 20-30% of his damage was throwing into said minions, and a great deal of his pushing always came from them.

Now? Malz drops W , enemy mages hits signature waveclear in response.

Malz W dies and enemy waves pushes into tower.

He can answer with E-Q.

A few times, then he runs outa mana because that is how early malz is.

1 hit minion without giving at least his Q a bit more kick is not going to be cool at all, i can understand not wanting to buff his passive or E.

But he gotta have something if his minions become useless, he is only known for his waveclear and ability to counter divers. Losing waveclear would just render him obsolete in comparison to other mages :(

Naomi CoffeeGoat3 votes

Wait are we really comparing Yorick's long cooldown ultimate ability to Malz voidling spawning ability?

Voluug131 votes

And his counter-dives lost most damage AND are weaker to QSS that before.

So... lol?

Thefrostyviking1 votes

That's is directly related to him losing damage, before it was kinda like this, if the opponent made a bad dive then malz would drop his combo and stunlock them under tower for a quick kill. Now he needs to be very damm elaborate to bring out that damage and most of the time he dies before it's possible.

And more nerfs are coming :(

Voluug131 votes

He is already, after the 3rd nerf, a niche champion.

Beacon Academy1 votes

You use Voidlings when no one is around silly /s

Thefrostyviking2 votes

But....i want to have a small group of minions charging infront when i chase people :(

What kind of minionmancer void prophet can only summon his minions when no one is looking? :(

GigaPube1 votes

literally every single cringey malz complaint post has asked for completely different outcomes. this one sees that they're making him less of a support and his only specific complaint is about THAT. you kids crack me up lmao

deadlychuck4 votes

How do you figure, when the majority of them are simply "revert him"?

I'd say these are the same outcomes.

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