Just listening to Riot talk about jungle balance sickens me

They are so separated from the game.

"The problem with Cinderhulk was it brought damage in PvP and not just jungle clear"

No it's called scaling is almost always > than flat. Period. The only point in the game right now where you even have a chance of stopping tanks is before they start to scale which is within a few minutes of when they buy Cinderhulk.

It's why Devourer is picked over warrior.

It's why, even with magus, mages are hesitant to jungle because it's just a stat stick with no scaling and awkward stats for the jungle.

It's why Cinderhulk was being taken over Warrior.

Cinderhulk was strong but nerfing its damage does not nerf its gold efficiency very much whatsoever.

Warrior you a grand total of 40 AD and 10 armor pen (same as base values on new black cleaver but without base armor pen).

Magus you get 80 AP and I think 10% CDR. (really needs some kind of mana regen passive)

Cinderhulk you get a free sunfire that is super effective against creeps and health (300+75+other bonus hp scaling). 375 hp early game isn't much to laugh at esp when it only cost you 2700g and can give more hp than warmogs. Randuins + Cinderhulk + Spirit Visage + Warmogs = 125 + 75 + 100 + 200. 800 HP plus sunfire cape passive total with 4 items. This doesn't even include champs that scale off HP or even gain bonus HP through other means such as Sion, Cho'gath, Sejuani, and Volibear.

Putting a scaling HP item in the game is a perfectly fine idea for tanks, but when certain tanks are balanced around having around 500 less hp than they get with Cinderhulk, that's when you create problems. Voli bite late game already could go up to 800*(100+%missing hp) from HP scaling while being virtually unkillable.

Sure reducing the AoE damage helps deter people who are not supposed to be buying it away, but the people who scale way too well off it are still abusing it. That's why Sejuani is still perma ban. And a lot of junglers meant to shut tanks down are disappearing because there isn't a window. The second the tank gets Cinderhulk, you have lost your lead on them.

Unfortunately, I will say Cinderhulk has created the exact opposite of what we had before. It is choking out the early game junglers who can't keep up with the massive power spike it offers.

And then you compare Cinderhulk to Warriors and you see the problem. Cinderhulk gives tanks scaling hp while giving them about half the DPS of warrior early game in PvP while giving them higher DPS in the jungle. Why would you pick the item that falls off to the point where even Cinderhulk's damage scales to 3/4 of warriors while also being AoE. I also want to note that most junglers that take warrior can briefly exceed 1.0 AS early game meaning that their damage out put using warrior is actually lower than 40 per second. While Cinderhulk does about 19 per second (to champs, double to jung creeps) in an AoE by the time both people have their jungle item.

Meaning by buying Cinderhulk you are picking an early game scaling item which is a big problem. I know tanks do need jungle clear. But even before Cinderhulk, tanks like Sejuani, Cho'Gath, and Voli were thriving. Why? Because they focused more on ganks over clears and if they didn't snowball it was ok because your team was scaling with them. Now, they can choose to sit and farm or gank/counter-gank. While warrior is pigeon-holed into ganking only because on the vast majority of champs, it doesn't do much against the jungle and sitting in the jungle isn't going to scale you as fast as Cinderhulk or Devourer.

TL DR; Conclusion: Either cinderhulk needs an early game nerf to address its real problem (slightly slower clear speeds, or just a passive that doesn't stack with its own bonus hp), or Magus and Warrior need some kind of compensation so they can deal with tanks that don't have to interact to get ahead. Preferably in the sustain department (such as healing or mana on spell cast for magus when used on jungle creeps and a slight MS boost on Warrior when approaching enemy champs).

As a side note: Then they make the new Ashe which is way overtuned and overloaded almost as bad as Kalista was on release except you can catch her eventually if you live long enough or are an assassin and just blow her up immediately if she misses ult. (free infinite slows combined with high damage, I wonder where they went wrong). Maybe look at hitting her ult damage and her early game mana costs (also maybe a 105% crit damage start over 110%).