but it doesn't matter because we shouldn't compare specific parts of two champions; if you're going to use X champion to "prove" Y champion is over/underpowered, please do a holistic evaluation instead of cherrypicked stats.
Noctius2827 votes
's spin to win isn't as good as 
's spin to win!!
Something like that?
Laughing Fish45 votesWrong. Garen spins with the light of Demacia behind him. He has conviction. Wu is just monkeying around.
Arakadia1 votesWell whats Kat doing?
Laughing Fish27 votesMaking a killing at the assassination business.
Rew7111 votesYou know who else has a spin to win? ... I'll give you a hint. 
PaladinNO2 votesThat's so very true - you gotta spin it like you mean it: http://a.dilcdn.com/bl/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2014/08/LOL-goofy-movie-goofy-dance-new.gif
...and not just: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRyq6VtOGWY
Laughing Fish9 votesA lot of people can spin. But only one person can spin to win. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LZnDhP7ipao/VgCGtas1CUI/AAAAAAAAcTk/ug8eDgLyjpg/s1600/garen%2Bkatarina.gif
PaladinNO1 votesThat picture is so taking Katarina's spinning right out of the equation! Only with slight intent, am I right? ;)
Blue Moon Wolf4 votesNow that's just absurd. 's ult is backed by the power of Wuju style... and monkeying around >.>
Bârd7 votesWhy the fuck can 
use his legs when 
has to float around slowly?
They are both birds right?
Meep Man25 votesYou can compare some abilities, but you also have to keep in mind how much both champions sacrafise to have those spells. Champion's power budgets are different and some champions have more of their power in one spell than the others.
Lucifer30 votesYasuo has a power budget?
Wheatloaf3 votesIt was a projectile.
Melledoneus1 votes*True damage.
Better give him some, Yasuo is so weak without true damage.
Kappa.
Bârd1 votesYup.
Arakadia2 votesSimiar to how Swain's W snare cannt be dodged by windwall, but morgana's snare can. Swains w has a 2 sec delay doe.
Spacesuit Spiff1 votesExactly this. Aatrox passive gives him a freeeee revive... except thats roughly 115% of his power budget
Rozzeta19 votesWell, truth be told, when Yasuo uses wind Wall on Veigar's ultimate, then the damage of both skills is the same: Zero.
lol I died again13 votesIt's always funny when people say "you can't compare those two things". They just had to compare them to assess that they're too different to be compared.
IcyPepper11 votesplease do a holistic evaluation instead of cherrypicked stats.
OP makes a fair point tho. We can compare them, but we should at least use our head.
ChoGathsSon2 votesOP makes a fair point tho. We can compare them, but we should at least use our head.
Sure, compare them - doesn't make you less wrong (not you, just in general)
LankPants7 votesThere are times when comparisons are fair, especially when you're comparing a similar aspect of similar kits.
Things like Lux Q to Morg Q to Zyra E are fine.
qetzel2 votesAs the OP said, not really. Going with Morg and Lux, Lux's Q is arguably less fair given that it can be followed up with strong burst from outside of your range.
Morgana's Q is followed up with some damage, but it is no where near as bursty - you can get away before she really chunks you.
Even then, in mid game skirmishes the extra duration on Morgana's makes her more powerful in a pick comp. Lux still overtakes her later on in the game due to sheer damage output.
Consider the entire kit and the game, not just the one ability.
Anidan1 votesDamage output doesn't determine fairness. Morgana can use her binding and turn it into a follow-up stun real fast if she deigns to do so, and that will cause quite a bit of damage, and continue to keep you still for her team. Lux has her binding and that's it - she doesn't have about 4-4.5 seconds of combined CC for her team to follow up on.
Audiomancy1 votesDamage output doesn't determine fairness. Morgana can use her binding and turn it into a follow-up stun real fast if she deigns to do so, and that will cause quite a bit of damage, and continue to keep you still for her team. Lux has her binding and that's it - she doesn't have about 4-4.5 seconds of combined CC for her team to follow up on.
Except Lux can immediately follow up with her E-AA-E-Ult combo. Morgana can only use her W/R and wait for them to do damage.
Again, they are two completely different champions with one skill that is similar to the other's. You can't just compare one aspect of their kits because that isn't all there is to them.
Laughing Fish14 votesHe didn't say you can't compare it, he said you shouldn't use that comparison to try and make a valid aurgument. You can compare veiger's ult damage to the damage Yasuo's windwall (as windwall deals 0 damage), but that comparison should not be used to make an argument about balance.
DemaciaClown3 votesNo puns or gifs? I am truly disappointed my lord.
ChaoticPinecone1 votesYou can compare any two things if you wanted, because at the very least, they are ideas - and they have that feature in common. "Veigar's Ult is like my black shoe polish." "How?" "Because both are created by humans."
Getting anything useful beyond that is the reason why people hate these one-dimensional comparisons.
Very Hard Engage12 votesyasuo has straight up too much utility and when played correctly is a game changer.
veigar when played correctly, still gets counterbuilt, easily focused, and is monumentally more squishy than most other squishy champions, making him very hit or miss.
when you compare the two, yasuo is better at team fighting, even with veigars "all 5 man 2.5sec stun" that can be mitigated, yasuo's knockup + ult can not.
yasuo has sustain and no resource, is more durable thanks to shield, and has more reliable poke and waveclear.
overall, veigar demands a compentent team to function well, and when given a great team, veigar can be grossly effective at dealing magic damage for the team, yasuo on the other hand is self sufficient.
Handin Out Naps2 votesSo you are comparing a melee carry, to a burst mage. Once again use your head, these 2 champions shouldn't be compared in the first place. Of course yasuo is more durable, he is melee. Range is arguably the strongest stat in the game. If Yasuo didn't have his kit he would just get blown up in an instant, and be impossible to lane with.
You are also saying Yasuo doesn't require a competent team? His Ult is the one ult in the game that can't be cast right away lol. Most of the time you are waiting for your team to set up a knock up for you or you have to poke with q until you can charge your own tornado and even then any competent carry won't be caught in your ult and if you don't ult the carries odds are you will be dead before you get out of your ult.
Veigar is way too safe of a champ for what he becomes late game, meanwhile Yasuo Is one of the easiest champs in the game to gank because if his poke auto pushes waves and he relies on ememy/neutral units for his mobility.
They are 2 completely different champs one is balanced just incredibly unfun for a lot of people to play against, the other is just a super safe infinite scaling late game burst game.
Very Hard Engage8 votesVeigar is way too safe of a champ
stopped right there, this is why we cant have nice things, veigar is FAR from safe. you bank on him having 2 big beefy team mates in front of him, in ANY 1v1 setting, he loses if he doesn't win from R + Q alone. which cant be done until 35+minutes. and even after 35+minutes, a counterbuild negates that, and you still kill him regardless of farm.
you do not need to build 100% full damage to kill a veigar, hell, you can build full tank and still kill him, you can still destroy him with 1 damage item and the rest tank build.
Handin Out Naps1 votesI'm talking about lane, if you are saying his laning phase isn't safe then you are just really biased.
Very Hard Engage11 votesyasuo goes aggressive and gets ahead and snowballs, veigar doesn't have that option, he would need the jungler for kills.
aside from that yasuo doesn't have difficulty shoving wave, pushing someone out of lane, free farming, and maintaining a lead.
yasuo has amazing 1~4, and level 6 is hes going to 100-0 a bunch of champions.
if you want to talk about being ganked, he always reserves the option of dashing to one caster, and 1 melee minion, and hes already back on his side, thats all proper wave management and not just "clear wave, attempt to trade/chase now" like other champions do, no, thats wrong, you go after them when they're either in dash range away from casters, or when they're in the wave itself, that way you always have a target to dash to to playmake, avoid their skill shots outright, and come out monumentally ahead of the trade thanks to your shield blocking as many as 2 1/2 auto attack damage. while you get all your stuff onto them and dodge theirs.
now as for veigar, you SHOVE HIM IN, DENY HIM FARM, you do not let him get anything for free, he goes into auto range? HIT HIM, hit him hit him hit him. get him to back or outright die, and then hes feeding and you're winning.
its extremely difficult for veigar to last hit under tower, he needs to auto (towerhit + time a second auto) to last hit casters, and any damage on melee minions + tower hit = veigar cant get it, and his 8second CD level Q isn't getting the job done either. and his meteor doesn't 1hko, it would take veigar 2 or more autos to finish the job and get the cs on full hp minions.
veigar cant win early, he can only lose it.
the only way for you to lose is to make so many mistakes and get ganked for not having any vision at all down.
NichtHurz1 votesWell, just one thing about Veigar. If you know how to manage your auto attacks and Q's you can farm very reliably, even under the turret. When I'm playing Veigar and don't get countered into oblivion, I'll have at least 120 bonus ap after 20 minutes. Later in the game when I have 40% CDR and can onehit melee minions farming is just a joke to do^^ Nobody will be able to steal your cs if you just onehit anything.^^
Very Hard Engage3 votesthis is assuming you dont have minions autoing under turret as well, a full hp wave and just you and the turret is doable, but with minions its quite difficult and i can imagine missing 50% cs because of those hard to predict autos, im not saying its not possible, just much much harder.
Neeko B0t1 votesnot true i can kill any mage, adc, tank, fighter and hell even 
can't do anything to my ult, and i can get unlimited ap and when i get all three of my moves im unstoppable
Janna Me Fiddle1 votesstopped right there, this is why we cant have nice things, veigar is FAR from safe. you bank on him having 2 big beefy team mates in front of him, in ANY 1v1 setting, he loses if he doesn't win from R + Q alone. which cant be done until 35+minutes. and even after 35+minutes, a counterbuild negates that, and you still kill him regardless of farm.
you do not need to build 100% full damage to kill a veigar, hell, you can build full tank and still kill him, you can still destroy him with 1 damage item and the rest tank build.
Meanwhile Veigar saw play in the Quarter finals and Yasuo didn't.
They are both problematic champions in their own right, for very different reasons with one in common problem.
Veigar: Can burst down any squishy once mid game rolls around, before he had to wait until late game or be extremely fed to do this, coupled with baby cage this creates an insane amount of objective pressure that Veigar and his team can use to easily 1-3-1 or 1-4 split push. Still punishes Mages for doing well. His only weakness is his low mobility, which any Veigar is going to counter by playing super safe early and picking up mobi boots for roaming later while staying with his team. Basically if Veigar is picked, you have to pick an AD or rely on being babysat.
Yasuo: Highly mobile, self sufficient and gets free Critical (thus a ton of free gold stats which Riot has often admitted is a huge problem) from his passive, Should be high risk, high reward but is made safe by wind wall which is basically a free Peel. His ultimate can either be skill reliant or free damage depending if someone is around to knock up for him, however his mobility requires minions to jump to thus he can be punished if caught in the jungle or picked with no minion wave to dash away on.
The common issue: Both Yasuo and Veigar have overloaded kits that punish the opposition for doing well. Veigar punishes other mages for scaling, Yasuo can take away most of the ranged DPS in a team fight with well placed wind wall or outright stop a poke comp in its tracks.
How to fix both:
Veigar: Removing the punishing enemies for doing well aspect, it has long been the offender in Veigars kit and punishing someone for outscaling you doesn't equal counter play, it equals anti-fun because you have to slow your own power spikes or even dump gold into ensuring you have enough MR to survive the R burst, this can make a Mage that is outplaying Veigar stall on scaling and even fall behind because they have no choice but to build into more MR than they normally would just because of one ability while Veigars scaling is never stalled. Remember how Evelyn was nerfed because of the gold sink she created? Veigar does the same thing. He makes you waste gold.
Yasuo: Quite simple really, Windwall needs to go away. His free stats and self sufficiency can stay, even his R can stay, the free peel is what makes his kit overkill. We get how it looks fancy at high level play and all but flashiness is not a good reason to keep something that is clearly giving someone whom already gets free stats more free stats. See how you altered Fioras Riposte? That's how Windwall should work, blocks the next ability/aa only. This stops it being the ultimate peel/turtling tool, allows it to be more consistently outplayed and allows for outplays. Of course to diversify it from Riposte, Windwall can be used to protect team mates, let's keep that aspect of the current Windwall.
FastAsHeck1 votesyasuo has straight up too much utility and when played correctly is a game changer.
Thats high skill cap champions for you. It's the same that happens against a skilled Zed or Leblanc. I can agree with this to an extent though, he is frustrating to play against.
veigar when played correctly, still gets counterbuilt, easily focused, and is monumentally more squishy than most other squishy champions, making him very hit or miss.
Yasuo is one of the squishiest champions out there, and Veigar can at least to build a Zhonyas or something. Yes, wind wall is a powerful ability, but you can play around it. Yasuo can also get counterbuilt and easily focused.
when you compare the two, yasuo is better at team fighting, even with veigars "all 5 man 2.5sec stun" that can be mitigated, yasuo's knockup + ult can not.
I am really surpiresd that very few people know about this, but you can actually QSS (or eat an orange and be K) out of Last Breath and avoid the damage. By the way, Veigar's Dark Matter can easily outdamage Last Breath, and his one click nuke is nothing to laugh at either.
yasuo has sustain and no resource, is more durable thanks to shield, and has more reliable poke and waveclear.
POKE??? I legitimately cannot understand how you can think Yasuo has poke. Yeah he has waveclear, but only in short range. Which means he can't siege or defend. His shield is a pain but I don't think it makes him that much durable, and is uncontrollable. You can very easily pop it.
overall, veigar demands a compentent team to function well, and when given a great team, veigar can be grossly effective at dealing magic damage for the team, yasuo on the other hand is self sufficient.
It's not like he needs his team to land knock-ups or anything...
Before you all call me a Yasuo main and start downvoting, I am barely mastery tier 3 with him and feed half the times I play him (hardly ever, never in ranked). I haven't played Yasuo for a month at least I believe. I like his playstyle but he is too hard for me (yeah my mechanics suck)
No hate/direspectful comments please, just discuss in a calm tone :)
Garekk3 votesYou can QSS Veigar's stun as well. Doesnt make much of a difference when you're playing a champion who doesnt want to build a QSS, though, which is virtually any AP champion.
And no, Yasuo doesn't need his team to land knockups, it just makes it a hell of a lot easier if his teammates do.
FastAsHeck1 votesof course he doesn't need his team, otherwise he would be absolute garbage for everything but 5 man premades. It just makes him much better if he has a team with knockups. You also can't qss the half hp targetted nuke veigar has (not claiming he is op, but just giving an example)
Garekk1 votesYou cant QSS Yasuo critting you for half your health with every other autoattack either.
King of Mongoose1 votesyasuo has straight up too much utility and when played correctly is a game changer.
veigar when played correctly, still gets counterbuilt, easily focused, and is monumentally more squishy than most other squishy champions, making him very hit or miss.
when you compare the two, yasuo is better at team fighting, even with veigars "all 5 man 2.5sec stun" that can be mitigated, yasuo's knockup + ult can not.
yasuo has sustain and no resource, is more durable thanks to shield, and has more reliable poke and waveclear.
overall, veigar demands a compentent team to function well, and when given a great team, veigar can be grossly effective at dealing magic damage for the team, yasuo on the other hand is self sufficient.
im sorry, did you just say that veigar is unable to 1v5?
wtf?
CrazedPorcupine4 votesExcept, Yasuo's Windwall makes every projectle ability equivalent to it in terms of damage. 0. Not to mention that it eventually becomes the width of an entire lane.
killd0zer2 votesChampions are pretty comparable honestly.
They've been so homogenized that the differences shrink with each patch. Count how many champions have a skill shot Q.
CasterGilgamesh2 votes
has two ultimates he has wind wall then he has his last breath
Only Play Darius1 votesExcept one of them has a casting restriction outside of the cooldown.
CasterGilgamesh2 votesi personally think his ult is fine what makes me angry is his almost infinite dashes that make my head spin and the fact his wind wall can block most if not all my damage without any consequence to him besides it going on CD i just want his wall to have a health bar that that way it could have some counter play to it
softest boy1 votesOr make it only deflect projectiles from ONE side... I think it's dumb that he has the opportunity to dash through his wall repeatedly, making it hard to fight him in some situations.
Melledoneus2 votesSince 
ultimate doesn't do as much damage as 
's, we're going to give 's ultimate a true damage execute on your target of choosing.
Wait.
Lt Streko2 votesUsing Yasuo's windwall as a comparison to Veigar's ult is terrible.
...
You should have done Trundle's pillar. That 1 True damage.
