Question about Jungling.

FioraWillCarry·Dec 29, 2015·1 votes·722 views

I've tried a couple of weird picks and some normal picks in the jungle. I've noticed that backing is different among champions. Aatrox and Warwick can run full clears without backing from the start. Kindred has to back if she gets no leash and clears two camps(3 if she gets a leash). Akali has to back something like 3 times in the early game.

I love playing certain weird picks like Irelia and Akali in the jungle. So my question is, how bad is it to play a champ that has to back often in the early game ?

Can a champ who has to back often for the 1st couple clears be viable in the jungle ?

21 Comments

ChroudDec 29, 20153 votes

-Yes

Example- Kayle

Very slow clears at start but as soon as you hit 3 and start getting your atk speed items and jungler item becomes a beast in the jungle.

-You should always have a leash though if people are not leashing there jungler your playing with stubborn people which is not your fault.

FioraWillCarryDec 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

-Yes

Example- Kayle

Very slow clears at start but as soon as you hit 3 and start getting your atk speed items and jungler item becomes a beast in the jungle.

-You should always have a leash though if people are not leashing there jungler your playing with stubborn people which is not your fault.

I see. So you don't feel as if you're behind from having to back so often before hitting your jungle clear powerspike ?

ChroudDec 29, 20151 votes

No not at all. Some champs are mid late game champs even junglers.

Yes your early game ganks can be weak. But your Mid Late game with her can be Team carry worthy.

Another champ that comes to mind would be.

Nasus- Works very well in Low Elos "Flame if you want its true"

Your first clear is verys low as you have to last hit all the little monsters with Q and build your stacks while taking extra dmg. But as soon as you get those stacks in the jungle which btw is insane. I was able to get 300 stacks in 22 mins with him in the jungle.

All in all I feel if you have a slow start you will need to farm your jungle more and enemy jungle but the mid to late game is worth it with some champs. People dont know what to do with Nasus come to gank you in low elos its funny but you delete people quick.

ChroudDec 29, 20151 votes

Ill also add that instead of going 3 health pot with these slow junglers starts i Use the consumable refill potions as its saves 100-150 gold per back witch adds up quick after 2 backs thats 200-300 gold.

I use the standerd health pots on champs like Jax or Yi who have great clear times. Rengar ect. This also alows them to gank at 3

FioraWillCarryDec 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Ill also add that instead of going 3 health pot with these slow junglers starts i Use the consumable refill potions as its saves 100-150 gold per back witch adds up quick after 2 backs thats 200-300 gold.

I use the standerd health pots on champs like Jax or Yi who have great clear times. Rengar ect. This also alows them to gank at 3

Yea, I do that too. The new potions are quite good in the jungle. Very cost effective.

FioraWillCarryDec 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No not at all. Some champs are mid late game champs even junglers.

Yes your early game ganks can be weak. But your Mid Late game with her can be Team carry worthy.

Another champ that comes to mind would be.

Nasus- Works very well in Low Elos "Flame if you want its true"

Your first clear is verys low as you have to last hit all the little monsters with Q and build your stacks while taking extra dmg. But as soon as you get those stacks in the jungle which btw is insane. I was able to get 300 stacks in 22 mins with him in the jungle.

All in all I feel if you have a slow start you will need to farm your jungle more and enemy jungle but the mid to late game is worth it with some champs. People dont know what to do with Nasus come to gank you in low elos its funny but you delete people quick.

Thanks. Very interesting points. With mid/late game champs, I imagine you'd be farming a lot more and have an overall limited presence during the laning phase ? Is that ok to do ? Given that people like to scream at the jungler when they lose their lanes.

ChroudDec 29, 20152 votes

If people are losing there lanes bad they are either

A) Over playing and not playing to the jungler they are playing with. The team needs to understand how there team is going to work for it to be effective.

B) If they are not overplaying and they are hitting your lane hard. As example bottom lane. You should defintly gank as there is no reason to not get a kill here (3v2).

I also help these lanes by helping them ward river witch also buys me more time in jungle if they are doing ok when the enemy jungler is not there.

C) I never do not show my face in lane its easy to do because you can fly by mid and farm the river crab and your still farming. (also again good time to help them ward to keep them safe. To me this is the part of jungling that is overlooked by most. Most think jungling is about gank killl gank kill. I Gank>Farm>Ward

I also let the team know before match starts. Hey I have a slow start in the jungle guys so play safe tell I hit said lvl which is useally 3. Now you wont be questions hey were are you. After 3 with any effective jungler you should be showing your face in lanes.

ModWulf HelhammerDec 29, 20152 votes

You should have a leash, but you should also be able to jungle without a leash

shyvDec 29, 20152 votes

I think if you practice a lot with your clears with certain champs, you can figure out a way to clear the full jungle without having to back with pretty much anyone. As someone who often plays Leona jungle I can understand that it's kind of a pain trying to figure out off-meta jungle clears when nobody else plays that so you can't really learn from them, so you have to just practice and learn from your own experience..

My advice would be to do it in customs, ask someone to join and leash you so it seems realistic, because 99% of the time your team isn't full of assholes that won't leash. I wouldn't mind doing that if you want to add me.

You probably don't want to take someone in the jungle if they're so weak that you almost end up dying to camps. But I would say there's nothing wrong with working around your champ's weaknesses.

As Leona my clear path is kinda weird, I do krugs - wraiths - scuttle - red - wolves - blue - gromp. First couple of times I totally died in the jungle trying to do it though. You need to figure out when to smite and what advantages it brings you compared to smiting other things, I usually smite krugs for the stun passive and then red for the hp.

I feel like I just wrote a fucking novel sorry but anyways if you want to practice in some customs hmu

FioraWillCarryDec 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=trying too hard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MwamcLu6,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-12-29T17:39:48.688+0000)

I think if you practice a lot with your clears with certain champs, you can figure out a way to clear the full jungle without having to back with pretty much anyone. As someone who often plays Leona jungle I can understand that it's kind of a pain trying to figure out off-meta jungle clears when nobody else plays that so you can't really learn from them, so you have to just practice and learn from your own experience..

My advice would be to do it in customs, ask someone to join and leash you so it seems realistic, because 99% of the time your team isn't full of assholes that won't leash. I wouldn't mind doing that if you want to add me.

You probably don't want to take someone in the jungle if they're so weak that you almost end up dying to camps. But I would say there's nothing wrong with working around your champ's weaknesses.

Thanks for the offer but I'm far too kind a person to ask someone to spend their precious time leashing me in custom games :) Don't worry, I'll manage. I have no qualms about trying it in real games. I'll only be a bit behind if I screw up and if the lanes are doing well, it shouldn't screw anyone over and I'll catch up eventually.

As Leona my clear path is kinda weird, I do krugs - wraiths - scuttle - red - wolves - blue - gromp. First couple of times I totally died in the jungle trying to do it though. You need to figure out when to smite and what advantages it brings you compared to smiting other things, I usually smite krugs for the stun passive and then red for the hp.

I feel like I just wrote a fucking novel sorry but anyways if you want to practice in some customs hmu

Its fine, not that long of a read. Also, this is more or less what I was looking for. That fact that routes could affect how effectively one can clear is not something I gave much thought to. I pretty much always take the same route whenever I jungle regardless of the champion I'm using so you've given me something to think about: Alternate routes for different champions.

shyvDec 29, 20151 votes

think about the runes and masteries you take too. even though Leona scales entirely off AP, I take AD/AR runes on her and get a stalkers blade, then go tank. has a pretty good clear, and all the CC you need to lock someone down and duel.

honestly like.. you can probably jungle anyone as AD with stalkers blade. I do it with Ekko too.

idk, try out different builds

FioraWillCarryDec 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=trying too hard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MwamcLu6,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-12-29T18:01:01.742+0000)

think about the runes and masteries you take too. even though Leona scales entirely off AP, I take AD/AR runes on her and get a stalkers blade, then go tank. has a pretty good clear, and all the CC you need to lock someone down and duel.

honestly like.. you can probably jungle anyone as AD with stalkers blade. I do it with Ekko too.

idk, try out different builds

I take it to mean you stop at Stalker's with no enchantment ? I had thought about something like this to reach powerspikes quicker with normal items. Haven't tried it yet though.

shyvDec 29, 20152 votes

nah i always enchant

DREADN0UGHTDec 29, 20152 votes

I play Kindred and RekSai the most nowadays and i usually can clear 3 canps, a scuttler and gank a lane before i base as Kindred

Try using different runes and masteries. My first games with Kindred were rough since i had no clue as to which runes or masteries to go for. Took me a couple of games before i figured something that worked.

FioraWillCarryDec 29, 20151 votes

Oh, I never get problems with leashing. Never had a game where I even had to ask for a leash. More often you have to tell people not to leash if you're playing a strong jg that doesnt need it.

AyRe CoNteMpTDec 29, 20151 votes

depending on what runes and masteries you run, every somewhat-viable-jungler is able to fullclear including the ones you named
always ask yourself if the champion you jungle actually has any advantage from jungling over laning. for example, karthus can clear the jungle really good but is there any advantage for karthus to jungle over laning? a lane karthus has a strong earlygame, very safe laning and scales really good. he has everything he needs from laning and there is absolutely zero reason to jungle him. last but not least, he doesnt get any advantage from the jungle items. he doesnt want them. also, he doesnt want smite. so, does your champion want all that?
if you can answer that question with a yes, your champion wants to go to the jungle for some reason and he does want the jungle item and smite then ask yourself: how FAST does he clear. and that doesnt just go for the first clear but also how good does his clearspeed scale? for example, akalis clearspeed doesnt scale for fucking shit. she always clears slow, no matter what she builds. shyvanas clearspeed isnt the super ultra greatest at first but after lvl 4 she clears super fast and it just gets faster, thats why she can outfarm and outlevel other junglers and thats her advantage. she can even outlevel laners if done properly.
if your champion clears decently fast, also ask yourself how your champion does against popular junglers. can your champion handle a lee sin invade? can your champion duel a lee sin or rexai at lvl 4-5-6+? can your champion GANK properly? can your champion ADAPT to the flow of the game? (i.e. can you build more supportive/tanky if you fall behind to still be usefull or does your champion rely fully on damage items?) what are the strengths of your champion and what are your weaknesses? can your do multiple things well? (i.e. teamfighting, splitpushing, assassinating, towerdiving etc)
if your champion can do all of the above or at least a sufficient number of things, the last question is: when does your champion USUALLY get his powerspikes (akali has powerspikes at lvl 6 and at 1 item) and how does it go in the jungle? are the powerspikes later? earlier? weaker? stronger? are they even USEFUL? for example, akali jungle gets her lvl 6 much later from the jungle than from the lane and her 1-item-powerspike is fucking shit. she doesnt want the AP jungle item that much and the others are useless on her. she clears too slow and too weak to get significant experience from the jungle and her dueling pre 1 item is below sorakas. this means you have to ask yourself WHEN CAN MY CHAMPION DO WHAT? and then apply these things to get an advantage from playing the champ you play.

having said that - TL;DR - not every champion who can not-die in the jungle is a jungler.

FioraWillCarryDec 29, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MwamcLu6,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-12-29T17:40:12.807+0000)

depending on what runes and masteries you run, every somewhat-viable-jungler is able to fullclear including the ones you named

always ask yourself if the champion you jungle actually has any advantage from jungling over laning. for example, karthus can clear the jungle >really good but is there any advantage for karthus to jungle over laning? a lane karthus has a strong earlygame, very safe laning and scales really >good. he has everything he needs from laning and there is absolutely zero reason to jungle him. last but not least, he doesnt get any advantage >from the jungle items. he doesnt want them. also, he doesnt want smite. so, does your champion want all that?

Well, with regards to Akali and Irelia, its their ganks. Their laning is all well and good but these champs can carry hard when they roam due to their phenomenal ganks. And if they get fed....they don't even need to clear camps anymore. They can farm kills with ease if they get fed during the laning phase. Overall, I love strong gankers and always want to try champs that seem to have good ganking potential in the jungle.

AyRe CoNteMpTDec 29, 20151 votes

both akali and irelia have horrible ganks and even tho irelia can gank earlier than akali and her ganks are a bit better, she isnt exactly stronger than other junglers early on. infact if you gank a lane with irelia at lvl 3 or 4 and you meet an elise or lee sin, god help your soul.

still, this doesnt answer my 5 questions.

Raka Flaka MDDec 29, 20151 votes

If you kite the camps around you can usually do a full clear.

FioraWillCarryDec 29, 20151 votes

Ah....sweet :)

Thank you all for your answers and time. You've all given me very helpful insights. May you all be fed every game ;)

Sona PingDec 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I've tried a couple of weird picks and some normal picks in the jungle. I've noticed that backing is different among champions. Aatrox and Warwick can run full clears without backing from the start. Kindred has to back if she gets no leash and clears two camps(3 if she gets a leash). Akali has to back something like 3 times in the early game.

I love playing certain weird picks like Irelia and Akali in the jungle. So my question is, how bad is it to play a champ that has to back often in the early game ?

Can a champ who has to back often for the 1st couple clears be viable in the jungle ?

#1. "Can a champ who has to back often for the 1st couple clears be viable in the jungle ?" Define "viable".

#2. "So my question is, how bad is it to play a champ that has to back often in the early game ?" If you are asking about playing Akali jungle or something, don't worry about it. You do you.

But if you are asking in a competitive sense or in a strategic sense or a game theory/discussion sense or whatever: It's quite bad. This is because while that champion has to back and heal, an opposing jungler who doesn't have to do that, doesn't do that. Naturally. This allows them to use that time that the other jungler is backing and returning to clear more of their camp (giving them a gold advantage) or to gank a lane (ideally, giving their teammate an advantage, through pressure, burnt cds, or gold). A champion that has to back after a partial clear, rather gaining a disadvantage from enemy action, is giving themselves a disadvantage at the beginning of the game.

#3. _ "Kindred has to back if she gets no leash and clears two camps(3 if she gets a leash)."_ That... should not be happening. Kindred can do a full clear with no leash what so ever; I don't what is happening but it's something terribly wrong. You should probably look into that.