Lee Sin's only average in competitive and shit in solo queue

thinking man·Mar 2, 2015·16 votes·1,868 views

why does everybody complain about him when he sucks right now?

52 Comments

Trash MammaIMar 2, 201514 votes

Mobility is what I came to understand. He has too many dashes. Shockingly though I don't see complaints that much about Ahri Leblanc Fizz Akali etc. as much as I use to. They're all just as mobile if not more than Lee.

You build damage on him and you're squishy. You build tanky and you're weak. I honestly don't get the massive lee sin hate other than his crazy mobility. Which is a huge issue in the game, period

1st HanarSpectreMar 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Mobility is what I came to understand. He has too many dashes. Shockingly though I don't see complaints that much about etc. as much as I use to. They're all just as mobile if not more than Lee.

You build damage on him and you're squishy. You build tanky and you're weak. I honestly don't get the massive lee sin hate other than his crazy mobility. Which is a huge issue in the game, period

There's tons of complaint about Leblanc, and quite a few for Ahri. AD fizz is just getting fleshed out, but the QQ will begin soon since it's borderline OP. Akali just got a nerf, so a lot of people stopped playing her, hence less QQ about her.

Also people will QQ about Lee forever. Same reason Zed, Katarina and similar heroes will always have people telling and screaming for riot to nerf them.

ThryaleMar 2, 20151 votes

welp, we found the dota player. :P

joking aside, I think the difference between ahri's mobility and lee's/zeds is her dashes are limited to her ult. Also, lee and zed are both (almost) resourceless due to using energy. This means that the only real limitation on their mobility is their cd's.

lb and fizz were both hit rather hard by the mana regen changes, which means they can actually go oom and end up dead in the water. The core reason why ppl complain about those do is their high burst combined with their mobility. ppl complain about zed because of his high burst and safety and I'm not certain why they've been complaining about ahri, as I haven't actually read said complaints.

ZmuecatMar 2, 20156 votes

Most people are tired of seeing him, and that's where a lot of the complaints are coming from.

A lot of people are complaining because, even if he isn't the strongest ATM, he has defined the jungle for a long time now.

I, personally, don't see any reason for him to have spell vamp in his kit, and want it removed because I'm sure he'd be fine without it. I don't like things just thrown onto kits for the funsies.

thinking manMar 2, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Most people are tired of seeing him, and that's where a lot of the complaints are coming from.

A lot of people are complaining because, even if he isn't the strongest ATM, he has defined the jungle for a long time now.

I, personally, don't see any reason for him to have spell vamp in his kit, and want it removed because I'm sure he'd be fine without it. I don't like things just thrown onto kits for the funsies.

His kit's already been clipped a lot and he's already a shit-tier duelist.

He's just a pseudo-assassin.

ZmuecatMar 2, 20155 votes

{quoted}

His kit's already been clipped a lot and he's already a shit-tier duelist.

He's just a pseudo-assassin.

If you can convince me that spell vamp is essential to his kit, I'll be one less person on the Lee hate camp.

They could easily just give him more life steal if they even needed to compensate it, I don't really care, but I don't understand why he has spell vamp. Not only do I not understand it, but from my perspective he'd be just fine with it being removed.

thinking manMar 2, 20153 votes

{quoted}

If you can convince me that spell vamp is essential to his kit, I'll be one less person on the Lee hate camp.

They could easily just give him more life steal if they even needed to compensate it, I don't really care, but I don't understand why he has spell vamp. Not only do I not understand it, but from my perspective he'd be just fine with it being removed.

He's not an auto attacker at all.

His jungle clear is only okay since removing his E AS slow and he doesn't one-shot camps like Jarvan does.

He doesn't auto attack that much, and you really don't want to increase synergy with Hydra since that'd be pretty cancer with how good it can be on him already.

ZmuecatMar 2, 20152 votes

He regenerates energy through AAs last I checked.

Between his shield (weak as it may be), his life steal, his execute, and his AoE magic damage, I'm sure okay is more than fine.

I don't care what J4 does, we're talking about Lee.

How would his synergy with an item increase if he's not an auto attacker? How cancer would it be, especially if he already buys it? Doesn't sound like much in my book.

thinking manMar 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

He regenerates energy through AAs last I checked.

Between his shield (weak as it may be), his life steal, his execute, and his AoE magic damage, I'm sure okay is more than fine.

I don't care what J4 does, we're talking about Lee.

How would his synergy with an item increase if he's not an auto attacker? How cancer would it be, especially if he already buys it? Doesn't sound like much in my book.

He doesn't AA nearly enough to take advantage of 4-seconds of lifesteal.

Giving Lee a reason to build Hydra will make him get massive amounts of burst health since Hydra is already a massive burst of health if Lee builds it. It'd essentially be as bursty as spell vamp is as far as healing goes.

That'd also just be the active.

ZmuecatMar 2, 20152 votes

So his burst healing would rely on him building an item and using an ability, instead of just using an ability?

Why is this bad? Even if he isn't the best jungler out there, he is still currently in one of the higher tiers. If he builds this item anyways, then removing SV and giving him some more LS would remove some early game power, but increase it back to normal/better later? Wouldn't that improve his "horrible late game," even if just a little?

thinking manMar 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So his burst healing would rely on him building an item and using an ability, instead of just using an ability?

Why is this bad? Even if he isn't the best jungler out there, he is still currently in one of the higher tiers. If he builds this item anyways, then removing SV and giving him some more LS would remove some early game power, but increase it back to normal/better later? Wouldn't that improve his "horrible late game," even if just a little?

No, it would make godlike synergy with an item that he doesn't normally build but can build while nerfing a part of his kit that you will almost never notice as the reason why either side lost while still making a difference. He doesn't get that much burst healing from the spell vamp anyways, spell vamp is just a burst healing stat.

[{quoted}](name=Learn 2 Swim,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Mu4QUJlX,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-03-02T19:22:50.544+0000)

regardless if what youre saying is true (its not) there have been almost 20 junglers nerfed this season and lee isnt one of them

are you saying that lee is the worst out of these 20 junglers and doesnt deserve nerfs?

He doesn't deserve nerfs.

Name the other 19 and I'll tell you why all of them deserve nerfs more than Lee.

ZmuecatMar 2, 20151 votes

Oh, sounds like a win/win then.

Fantastic. So let's remove the spell vamp, increase the life steal, and put out a PSA that he should be building Hydra to improve his sustain. Now he has great synergy with an item outside of bonus AD scaling, and is now focused more on weaving AAs in during a fight instead of just spamming abilities.

thinking manMar 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Oh, sounds like a win/win then.

Fantastic. So let's remove the spell vamp, increase the life steal, and put out a PSA that he should be building Hydra to improve his sustain. Now he has great synergy with an item outside of bonus AD scaling, and is now focused more on weaving AAs in during a fight instead of just spamming abilities.

That won't change his playstyle at all since you'd weave AAs anyways and people will just use Hydra as a burst active.

All you are doing is forcing him to buy Hydra.

ZmuecatMar 2, 20151 votes

Not forcing, encouraging.

I'm sure there are other life steal items he could find useful if he needs sustain. If he doesn't need sustain he can just do whatever he's doing now.

You're failing to convince me, and on top of that what you are telling me is making Hydra a core item on him might actually improve him. Now he'd be doing AoE damage in fights, clearing faster, and he'd have great sustain burst.

I don't know why this is a bad idea.

thinking manMar 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Not forcing, encouraging.

I'm sure there are other life steal items he could find useful if he needs sustain. If he doesn't need sustain he can just do whatever he's doing now.

You're failing to convince me, and on top of that what you are telling me is making Hydra a core item on him might actually improve him. Now he'd be doing AoE damage in fights, clearing faster, and he'd have great sustain burst.

I don't know why this is a bad idea.

You don't quite understand why Hydra has specific synergy with his W. Hydra's a special case since it's AoE, and so he'll be able to get extra value from this.

It won't change his playstyle at all since he'll just use it to help with his pseudo-assassination, and a champion should not be pigeonholed into building one item. Furthermore, it is conflicting with him having to build Sightstone and the lifesteal would need to be tuned carefully so he doesn't get overbuffed/nerfed.

ZmuecatMar 2, 20151 votes

No. I understand. It sounds like we're buffing Lee by doing this. Isn't this a good thing?

I didn't really want to change his play style, just remove spellvamp.

And this isn't pigeonholing. If he needs more sustain, he gets hydra, if he doesn't, he gets whatever else.

And he doesn't need to build Sightstone, he has a trinket (that got buffed to hold two charges). Or is he pigeonholed into buying sightstone? If so, shouldn't we remove ward hopping so he doesn't HAVE to buy that item?

thinking manMar 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

No. I understand. It sounds like we're buffing Lee by doing this. Isn't this a good thing?

I didn't really want to change his play style, just remove spellvamp.

And this isn't pigeonholing. If he needs more sustain, he gets hydra, if he doesn't, he gets whatever else.

And he doesn't need to build Sightstone, he has a trinket (that got buffed to hold two charges). Or is he pigeonholed into buying sightstone? If so, shouldn't we remove ward hopping so he doesn't HAVE to buy that item?

If you remove ward hopping then you need to massively buff his raw fighting power and could probably give him his release kit since he'd be pretty bad without it with how weak of a fighter he comparatively is.

ZmuecatMar 2, 20151 votes

No we wouldn't. We'd be changing him for the better, now he doesn't HAVE to be Sightstone unless he loves to ward.

Plus, he'd still have his spell vamp because obviously if we removed it then he'd be pigeonholed into buying Hydra, so he'd keep is current level of sustain.

Not only that, but a lot of people complaining that he's safe because he has so much free mobility would be happy.

This sounds like a lose(for me, sadly)/win/win. What's the problem now?

destiny fanMar 3, 20151 votes

Removing the ward hop is out of the question as it removes an interesting interaction with his positioning

he doesn't autoattack outside 1v1's as (specialy early-mid game) you need to stay on the move or you will be killed

his spellvamp aids him in the jungle. as his E is magic damage, if you nerf said spellvamp you need to give him a sustain alternative for the first clears

lee sin is fine right now, he doesn't need any nerfs, other outclassed junglers need to be brought up to par

JefftiffyMar 3, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=destiny fan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Mu4QUJlX,comment-id=00020000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000002,timestamp=2015-03-03T04:16:32.927+0000)

Removing the ward hop is out of the question as it removes an interesting interaction with his positioning

he doesn't autoattack outside 1v1's as (specialy early-mid game) you need to stay on the move or you will be killed

his spellvamp aids him in the jungle. as his E is magic damage, if you nerf said spellvamp you need to give him a sustain alternative for the first clears

lee sin is fine right now, he doesn't need any nerfs, other outclassed junglers need to be brought up to par

People forget that he gets 5% spell vamp with one point and 5% life steal. Not really sure how having that little is considered OP.

OrbvMar 2, 20153 votes

Lee Sin's build item 3074 , you're making it sound rare. It's not. It's the 5th most popular item on Lee in all divisions. The burst and AD and wave clear that comes with it is almost a no brainer as long as you build something with armor and health, item 3143

Also when was the last time you jungled Lee Sin? He autoattacks a good amount. It is not comparable to Udyr or Trundle but for the first clear of the jungle if you haven't attacked at least 25 times, then you are getting assisted. Afterwords he doesn't need to as much, but far most than the likes of Sejuani, Amumu, Hecarim.

He does deserve nerfs, but you're defending a champion who simply has too much in his kit. It is just too much.

These are just unnecessary.

Spell Vamp % health execute True Site procc'ed from 2 abilities 4.8 Bonus AD Ratio (4.8...) Energy Returned if shield is destroyed (What champions receive a boost for *losing *their shields?) 40% AS passive

He is fine with these:

Ranged Poke Optional Enemy Gap Closer Shield, Ally Shield Ally Gap Closer Aoe Damage Aoe Slow Life Steal Knock back, and subsequent AoE Knock up Energy Based Champion with replenishment passive

thinking manMar 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Lee Sin's build , you're making it sound rare. It's not. It's the 5th most popular item on Lee in all divisions. The burst and AD and wave clear that comes with it is almost a no brainer as long as you build something with armor and health,

Also when was the last time you jungled Lee Sin? He autoattacks a good amount. It is not comparable to Udyr or Trundle but for the first clear of the jungle if you haven't attacked at least 25 times, then you are getting assisted. Afterwords he doesn't need to as much, but far most than the likes of Sejuani, Amumu, Hecarim.

He does deserve nerfs, but you're defending a champion who simply has too much in his kit. It is just too much.

These are just unnecessary.

Spell Vamp % health execute True Site procc'ed from 2 abilities 4.8 Bonus AD Ratio (4.8...) Energy Returned if shield is destroyed (What champions receive a boost for *losing *their shields?) 40% AS passive

He is fine with these:

Ranged Poke Optional Enemy Gap Closer Shield, Ally Shield Ally Gap Closer Aoe Damage Aoe Slow Life Steal Knock back, and subsequent AoE Knock up Energy Based Champion with replenishment passive

So are you proposing that they buff the rest of his numbers while removing things deemed unncessary?

Some of those things that you deem unnecessary require at least one of them to be there if you are to remove one.

For example, if you are to remove his % health execute, you have to buff his damage.

If you buff his damage, you are violating the fact that he has a 4.8 bonus AD ratio (which isn't much since he never gets more than one or two AD items at most, and that's only in top lane)

I'm pretty sure getting energy from his shield is a relic of the past that was removed since I remember reading of it in the patch notes and I couldn't find any info about it on the wiki immediately.

If you were to remove both his ratios and his % health execute, you would have to buff his passive but that also violates the final one you deem unnecessary. Furthermore, playing Lee w/o the AS would feel absolutely terrible.

IcyPepperMar 2, 20152 votes

For example, if you are to remove his % health execute, you have to buff his damage.

I recall some champions getting nerfed without any compensation.

Azir Sona item 3070

thinking manMar 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I recall some champions getting nerfed without any compensation.

Sona needed nerfs while you admitted Lee's balanced.

Same with Azir.

IcyPepperMar 2, 20151 votes

Never said Lee was balanced...?

I even gave my opinion on what I think should be tweaked.

PartholonianMar 3, 20151 votes

When was Sona nerfed without compensation? The last set of changes to her that people complained about as nerfs were actually a mix of buffs and nerfs. The community, typically, focused on the nerfs and ignored the buffs -- although I suppose if there was anyone who really, really hated Sona they'd have done the opposite.

OrbvMar 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So are you proposing that they buff the rest of his numbers while removing things deemed unncessary?

Some of those things that you deem unnecessary require at least one of them to be there if you are to remove one.

For example, if you are to remove his % health execute, you have to buff his damage.

If you buff his damage, you are violating the fact that he has a 4.8 bonus AD ratio (which isn't much since he never gets more than one or two AD items at most, and that's only in top lane)

I'm pretty sure getting energy from his shield is a relic of the past that was removed since I remember reading of it in the patch notes and I couldn't find any info about it on the wiki immediately.

If you were to remove both his ratios and his % health execute, you would have to buff his passive but that also violates the final one you deem unnecessary. Furthermore, playing Lee w/o the AS would feel absolutely terrible.

I would be much more supporting of compensations given the reductions. %health makes him a tank assassin. With high ratios, he doesn't need the potential to kill low tanks as well, that's ludicrous. Though I don't think he needs compensations for an aspect only Sejuani/Gragas/Mao'Kai should have, actual tanks, I wouldn't object to a high AD ratio so that when he builds AD he feels strong, but not still overwhelming when building health.

I tried playing him to test the shield regain, but energy recovers on its own decently quick, so I can't tell if I'm seeing things or if it's kicking. But if it's no longer available then yay.

Also, the same issue with Zed, why does this champion need high Attack Speed? They do most of their damage through abilities. If the ratios and bases were increased a bit, they are more focused on being casters and less so on all around killers. You should feel good when you dodge a Lee Q and survive his E/R. You shouldn't be paranoid that he can fight you 1v1 off of melee also after he's just slowed you.

destiny fanMar 2, 20154 votes

because people love that early level 2 and they get ganked

Poptart EvelynnMar 2, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=destiny fan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Mu4QUJlX,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-02T18:49:37.738+0000)

because people love that early level 2 and they get ganked

Other junglers do it better like kha for example.

JefftiffyMar 2, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kawaii Kha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Mu4QUJlX,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-03-02T18:55:30.334+0000)

Other junglers do it better like kha for example.

I have never seen a Kha lvl 2 gank. Counter jungle yes. Gank no. Why because he kind of hops in place or walks up and goes RAWRWARFAGASF and hopes they get scared and don't know how to deal with a level 2 gank.

MartinLaEpicMar 3, 20151 votes

"Why because he kind of hops in place or walks up and goes RAWRWARFAGASF and hopes they get scared and don't know how to deal with a level 2 gank." Most accurate thing I have ever read

Wînter FoxMar 2, 20153 votes

I honestly think a bunch of Bronze/Silver level players are getting stomped by Plat level Lees in normals and just start raging on the forums. "Omg this Lee keeps ganking me and making plays WTFOP" even though that Plat player could still wreck with any other champ.

Same thing with Riven

Cenobite AzazielMar 2, 20153 votes

Sure. top 100 NA players 3 top picks: JG that plays lee: 13 Jg that don't play lee: 7. The rest: rengar, vi , hec, j4 and nida. He is a staple pick 3 years straight in top 100. But yeah, Those players can't play for sh#t. Lucian was a staple and got nerfed. Guess who is up there now? Graves and kalista.

thinking manMar 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cenobite Azaziel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Mu4QUJlX,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-03-02T19:29:23.360+0000)

Sure. top 100 NA players 3 top picks: JG that plays lee: 13 Jg that don't play lee: 7. The rest: rengar, vi , hec, j4 and nida. He is a staple pick 3 years straight in top 100. But yeah, Those players can't play for sh#t. Lucian was a staple and got nerfed. Guess who is up there now? Graves and kalista.

The only elo where his winrate is actually meeting or above 50% is master/challenger which is too small of a sample size, but he has a 54/55% winrate there.

Diamond is the next closest at 49%.

IcyPepperMar 2, 20152 votes

Well, to be fair, his ult requires no energy, has a one minute cooldown at max rank, and has high base damage and 200% bonus AD scaling (for reference, Vi's ult deals less base damage, has 140% bonus AD scaling, and costs mana).

It comes off as, well, free. There's no price to his ult other than a cooldown. Like a get out of jail free card, just kick your assailant away or execute 'em.

thinking manMar 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Well, to be fair, his ult requires no energy, has a one minute cooldown at max rank, and has high base damage and 200% bonus AD scaling (for reference, Vi's ult deals less base damage, has 140% bonus AD scaling, and costs mana).

It comes off as, well, free. There's no price to his ult other than a cooldown. Like a get out of jail free card, just kick your assailant away or execute 'em.

Vi's ult is also longer range and is more easily used to get key targets.

Also her damage will math out better since she has %health damage and an armor shred as well as an AA reset.

IcyPepperMar 2, 20151 votes

We could argue about this until we're blue, but his scaling is high, his base damage is high, and it requires no energy. In my opinion, it should have some energy cost because even Vi can run out of mana eventually.

And Vi puts herself at risk during a teamfight if she ults the adc in the back, and Lee Sin's ult can be used to put distance between him and the target. Not to mention Lee Sin has, what, seven spells total while Vi has casts at most? And yeah, her passive is strong, but she doesn't have built-in lifesteal AND spellvamp (that doesn't even make sense...).

MartyrofsandMar 2, 20151 votes

Vi's ult is also longer range and is more easily used to get key targets.

Also her damage will math out better since she has %health damage and an armor shred as well as an AA reset.

Vi's ult drags her into the enemy team and the person being targeted by it can just flash/dash to drag her even farther into their team to kill her before her team can capitalize. Lee Sin's ult knocks the target away from their team into his team while doing more damage, and instead of doing a minor knock aside it does a massive knock-up of anyone in the path.

Trying to defend Lee by comparing him to Vi is idiotic.

DestructoDaveMar 2, 20152 votes

I hardly ever see lee sins, and when I do, they are either really good, or completely garbage and are so useless you can blame them solely for their team's loss. I am in silver, though.

I fail to see how hes stronger or easier to wreck with than j4, vi, and nid atm. All those champions are almost impossible to fail with, while lee sin's fail regularly, especially the farther down in elo you go, which seems to be where all the crying is, which makes me want to see these games with these smurf lee sins dumpstering them.

I know I prefer to see lee sin picked on the other team than any 3 of those I mentioned, because hes easier to deal with than a J4 or Vi, each of which can easily go dmg like hydra or Trinity and delete you just as fast and even easier, than lee sin can. Have people never been an ADC and got dunked by a hydra j4 who 2 shots you, or a trinity Vi who 2 shots you, and both just clicked R on you compared to lee sin having to flank, land a Q, etc. to get to the squishy?

I really want to see these low elo lee sins dominating you people.

Eiskalt79Mar 2, 20151 votes

A lot of the complaints stem from him simply being on top for forever out of Riot's choice. They've basically designed the jungle around him and jungle balance is done around him as well.

Riot used Renekton as an example of a bar set in the top lane that all top laners were having to be balanced around, though unintentional. With Lee Sin however, it's intentional that he's used in that same way but for the jungle. If you can keep up with him, you can jungle. If you can't, he and those who can are allowed to shit stomp you.

It doesn't help that he's a generalist as well. He has no discernible weaknesses, fits into any comp, and gets to excel in some capacity all game. During the early and mid game he's an extremely high mobility assassin who then transitions into a solid late game mobile tank/peeler with a clutch displacement skill that keeps him fully relevant when his damage normally would be fall off base. Oh and he has stupid AD ratios that allow him to snowball really hard if he does get ahead early.

Nucleophilic atkMar 2, 20151 votes

Probably because he doesn't have any weaknesses and is played in every single game that I'm not first pick to ban him.

GloriousKaiserMar 2, 20151 votes

Why pick others when you can pick him?

ForgiveColourMar 2, 20151 votes

because bronze are slow in the meta when vi/j4/rek are god tier right now

YorukinMar 2, 20151 votes

Objectively speaking, no, Lee Sin isn't all that strong. He's actually quite balanced, as far as numbers go. The problem is that he doesn't have any really clear weaknesses. He is THE ultimate example of a flexible fighter champion. He's got multiple dashes, an execute, a shield, life steal and spell vamp, an AoE slow, an AS steroid, a super-strong knockback, and multiple sources of true vision, all on top of solid AD ratios, decent defenses, lowish cooldowns, and using Energy as a resource (with much fewer limitations on his energy consumption than, say, Shen or Kennen). He fits into any team composition, he can fill virtually any role, and there are no real downpoints in his gameplay. He's too reliable, and this is what most players hate.

Colgate GatorMar 2, 20151 votes

I, for one, I'm tired of seeing his blind ass, but when people say he hasn't been nerfed due to LC$ either have bad memory or are stupid, he has been nerfed a couple of times.

UdoIkOSc4uMar 2, 20151 votes

the amount of sheepness in this thread...

BakedLotionMar 2, 20151 votes

You're right, he sucks right now. Lets compensate him for the warrior enhancement -5 AD item nerf.

Rito pls. Compensate free win

aaronconlinMar 2, 20151 votes

I think a lot of the complaints come from bandwagoners honestly. But, the main points I've seen are:

overloaded kit (multiple abilities, life steal/spellvamp, free mobility, energy based)
super high ratios (no ratio lower than 80%)
Always viable (like Thresh, his kit allows him to always be useful if played well)

kunkudunkMar 2, 20151 votes

People complain because they still see him all the time and he kinda just does everything. Sure, sej has a better team fight, but lee's isn't terrible and he can reck her early. Sure maokai has those amazing early ganks, but his range is low and he isn't really jungled anymore anyway. Lee may not be op, but he isn't the worst at anything either. He even has decent poke for the first 15 minutes of the game.