The shield nerfs hit jungle Sion far harder than lane Sion

TotalJerk·May 26, 2015·48 votes·2,689 views

Here's the specific nerf from 5.8:

Soul Furnace

Shield's health ratio reduced to (+ 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 / 10% of max. health) from (+ 10% of max. health) at all ranks.
Secondary cast cooldown increased to 3 seconds from 2.

Doing my first and second clear after the nerf, my shield was popped about 5 out of 6 times before I even managed to detonate it. This seriously cripples his first clear. The blue buff monsters all popped my shield with 1 AA a piece. The context you guys provided was that this nerf was targeted at lane Sion, and that Soul Furnace was too powerful in lane because the damage scaled with health, making building health counter-productive. How exactly does this nerf change that fact?

56 Comments

ErockandrollMay 26, 201510 votes

I think it hit both builds about evenly. It's just that Jungle Sion was weaker to begin with. But even with the increased time before cast, his decimating smash should knock up all his Opponents long enough for the shield to charge.

If Jungle sion still needs help however, the best thing to do would be to revert the damage nerf to Jungle monsters on his decimating smash. That wouldn't affect his lane build.

junglerboy16May 26, 20152 votes

Jungle Sion actually had a higher win rate and this nerf hit his jungle FAR harder since 50% of his clear speed is literally gone since he can't use his shield for damage (it gets popped almost instantly now).

jDVL20eCYsMay 26, 20152 votes

use your shield before you hit the camp then pop it. just thick one step further

macromiteMay 26, 20151 votes

you use the shield on cd most the time. if you wait for it than you aren't clearing efficiently.

jDVL20eCYsMay 26, 20151 votes

? you use shield on time on every camp. you are activating the shield while you are walking you don't sacrifice any time. you are just borns and cant adapt or think.

macromiteMay 26, 20151 votes

you can do that in between some of the camps, yes, but not all of them. unless you are slowing your clear to get a safer one.

you seem to not understand how to jungle effectively with sion.

NarasimhaMay 26, 20151 votes

Which entirely defeats the purpose of using the shield to...well, SHIELD.

jDVL20eCYsMay 26, 20151 votes

bascily you press w on your way to the camp you arrive to the camp 2 sec after you activated the shield. then you ractivet it just before it breaks. just like you did before. you just dose exakt the same but you just activate that shield 1-2 sec earlier then you used to.

junglerboy16May 26, 20155 votes

I don't think you've actually played Sion jungle, because it can't even take one round of auto attacks from the monsters unless you rank it up first. You literally need to activate it and use it solely for damage if you want to get the damage off. That isn't "thinking one step ahead" that is being forced to choose between (now meager) sustain and most of your clear speed.

jDVL20eCYsMay 26, 20151 votes

not if you activate right before it would get destroyed bronze. you just have wrong

junglerboy16May 26, 20155 votes

My gosh you're thick, I'll use the plainest English I can (and FYI I've been playing Sion as my go-to jungler since his rework, so about 8 months now): You cannot "activate it right before it would get destroyed" unless you don't tank any damage with it. it dies in a single hit from Gromp, or Red buff, or Raptors, and that is crippling to his clear.

jDVL20eCYsMay 26, 20151 votes

i remember when i played sion jungle a lot and i can say his sustain in jungle was insane.. i don't think he has any sustain problems. so fifty

junglerboy16May 27, 20152 votes

You remember (based on your match history) from before the nerfs. The only problem with how they've nerfed his shield is they nerfed both his clear and his sustain all at once, and you need one or the other to be able to jungle well. He can still sort of clear, and still sustain a bit, but they hit both very hard. If anything they should have nerfed the % HP ratio of the damage portion of his shield to scale with level.

NERDSMASHER5000May 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't think you've actually played Sion jungle, because it can't even take one round of auto attacks from the monsters unless you rank it up first. You literally need to activate it and use it solely for damage if you want to get the damage off. That isn't "thinking one step ahead" that is being forced to choose between (now meager) sustain and most of your clear speed.

Shield is and always was the best start option

Rank it up, let it charge before monster spawns, allow it to tank 1/2 hits depending on camp and detonate for AOE %HP damage.

junglerboy16May 26, 20152 votes

No, You don't get it, I mean rank it up to max first (of course you always start with it at level one for the bonus health gains). Even if you activate it before starting the camp so you can reactivate it almost immediately, it pops in a single hit from most of the camps, meaning it doesn't serve half it's purpose, either for clear or for sustain, depending on wether you blew it up for damage or let the monsters insta-break it.

NERDSMASHER5000May 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No, You don't get it, I mean rank it up to max first (of course you always start with it at level one for the bonus health gains). Even if you activate it before starting the camp so you can reactivate it almost immediately, it pops in a single hit from most of the camps, meaning it doesn't serve half it's purpose, either for clear or for sustain, depending on wether you blew it up for damage or let the monsters insta-break it.

it still doesn't matter because sion jungle is totally fine

if anything he needs more nerfs

TotalJerkMay 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

allow it to tank 1/2 hits

Here's the thing, it can barely tank one hit now. 1 attack from each monster at almost every camp is enough to pop it during the first clear.

PatMcGroynMay 27, 20151 votes

Would Armor or Health quints make the shield hold?

junglerboy16May 27, 20151 votes

It would help, but early on (as in first+second clear) it would still be tricky to get it off if it took any damage. I'd probably opt for the extra armor over the extra health, because it would give you more total shield strength. Right now, without maxing it first you have a shield for 30 (+6% Max HP). 3 Health Quints give 78 HP or an extra 4.68 health on your shield (not much). 3 Armor Quints give 12.78 armor, which gives an extra 8.5 - 9.5 health on your shield (from level one to level 3 after clearing gromp and both major buffs). Either way, the health scaling nerf hit him very hard, because even with very defensive runes and masteries, it will still only shield him for about 65 - 75 health (again, depending on level and your health bonus), which breaks instantly to Raptors, Wolves (until level 3), Krugs, Gromp, Red, and Blue. Unless you put ranks into it almost immediately (like W>Q>W>E>Q>Q...) your clear really suffers along with your sustain putting that second point in at level 3 would allow it to not break on first hit when fighting Wolves, Gromp, maybe Raptors (not quite sure), and maybe Krugs. It would still break to red or blue buff unless you only get hit by the small monsters first.

KingsgraveMay 26, 20155 votes

That was the intention from the patchnotes I thought

You just have to use your shield before you approach the camp in order to get full use out of it. It is still a rather large shield at level 1 compared to many other shields. They also wanted people to max it second instead of E more often in both Jungle and in Lane.

Aych PiiMay 27, 20151 votes

The only other jungler who really relies on a shield is Nautilus , and his is much larger level one.

NebuulMay 26, 20153 votes

all of you people saying how the change does not affect jungle sion obviously do not play jungle sion.

The shield is now too weak to take a single hit from some camps.
An extremely important part of jungle sion clear was a second activation of shield to finish off a camp. This shield will now get popped before you can activate it.
The added second before activating translates directly to an added second of cooldown, so it really hurts his clear speed since shield is not ready in time to start camps.

NemeBroMay 26, 20153 votes

Sion jungle still has a positive win rate.

Before the W nerf, Sion basically didn't ever have to back in the jungle if he didn't want to. I have first backed with over 3,000 gold and almost no health lost in the jungle as Sion, back when his W was that good.

Can he do that anymore? No, not really. Is jungler Sion bad now? Nope. Stop crying and accept that he isn't as strong as he used to be, but is still quite good.

Now his W is best used to speed clearing up. Max Q for quicker clear times, and start your shield before your Q knocks the camp up. Then, pop it. Easy enough.

TotalJerkMay 26, 20153 votes

He has such a high winrate because practically NO ONE counterjungles in soloQ. Now he gets so low during his first clear that if you jump him at his second buff he has to either burn flash or die. Meanwhile top Sion will remain borderline pick-or-ban in top lane despite these changes because the problem of being completely unable to defensively build against Sion's multitude of means to deal damage in lane remains a problem.

NemeBroMay 27, 20152 votes

{quoted}

He has such a high winrate because practically NO ONE counterjungles in soloQ. Now he gets so low during his first clear that if you jump him at his second buff he has to either burn flash or die. Meanwhile top Sion will remain borderline pick-or-ban in top lane despite these changes because the problem of being completely unable to defensively build against Sion's multitude of means to deal damage in lane remains a problem.

It also helps that a few counterjunglers can't do it as well against Sion.

You don't get that low as Sion. It's not as tough as you're making it.

SexyTaylorSwiftMay 26, 20152 votes

Wow, with Sej, Grag, and LeBlanc being permabanned, I guess they though it was a good idea to nerf Sion. And yes, these nerfs will fucking rekt jungle Sion. I had trouble jungling early already. No thanks now, rito.

SmokinSickStyleMay 26, 20153 votes

Use your shield one second BEFORE attacking a camp and you can take 2 hits+instant detonation.

Fixed.

junglerboy16May 26, 20153 votes

If you've played Sion jungle recently, you'd know it usually can't take even one hit before breaking now, regardless of wether you queue it up before starting the camp. You basically have to use it for either sustain or clear, not both, and it is too expensive an ability to just use like that.

CrettMay 26, 20152 votes

This change really should not be affecting Jungle Sion that much if you're managing your cooldowns. Just start charging the shield before you start fighting the monsters and you'll be able to detonate it. I use full tank runes and masteries (% health seals and quints) and it takes them 2 AAs to break my shield

junglerboy16May 26, 20152 votes

I'd be ok with one or the other nerf, but both together crippled his jungle. His shield is now pathetically weak early on (and was his main clearing tool), but you also can't reactivate it as quickly meaning you are a very lucky guy if you get the explosion without just blowing it up before taking damage. Riot ruined my favorite jungler in the game because they are too thoughtless with their nerfs to different roles.

Entheos GeonMay 27, 20152 votes

I just activate his shield early and pop it when the camp spawns, he's still decent in the jungle.

WutsKrakenMay 27, 20152 votes

Not really, manage the shield around a bit better. Charge up shield with Q and detonate it for damage afterwards. Do not attempt to tank more than 1 hit with it

BeatzBoyFTWMay 26, 20151 votes

This seriously cripples his first clear. The blue buff monsters all popped my shield with 1 AA a piece.

If you mean you unlock W first at rank 1, activate the shield 3-4 seconds before the blue camp spawn.

Yankova4kaMay 26, 20151 votes

Am i the only one who thinks he is fine? I fought vs Sion and he was reking us. We needed 4 people to kill him cause he was so tanky,.

3TWarriorMay 26, 20151 votes

I thought riot said in the patch notes that they were changing it because people were abusing his shield for damage and not caring that sion died in the jungle because he could revive and still get his kills while doing more damage

the change here is that instead of being the instant explosion we all know and love, the shield is now used defensively because the monsters will break it at early levels, then by like level 6 or so, you can keep the shield long enough to detonate it

NilokMay 26, 20151 votes

A lot of people are saying "just use your shield before you fight" which only applies to to when you are starting a camp.

The bigger problem is that when already fighting them after you detonated you shield at the start of the camp, the jungle monsters, due to their attack speed and damage, can pop Sion's shield just before you hit the 3 second mark. This is a very large loss of damage to the major camps as before, or even if the secondary cast cooldown was only 2 seconds still, you would be able to detonate your shield for the 10% hp damage.

I suggest keeping the reduced health ratio since it was a bit nuts, but reverting the secondary cast to 2 or 2.5 seconds so you can just pop you shield just before it goes down from the jungle monsters on your first two clears. This will improve lane Sion slightly, but most champions should be able to take down the reduced shield before 2 - 2.5 seconds.

terkmcMay 26, 20151 votes

Actually it hurts lane sion more. Jg sion can choose when to start agroo and and can control damage to his shield relative to detonation time. Lane sion cant since the enemy laner/minion would pop it whether he choose or noe

Muted SummonerMay 26, 20151 votes

did you know you could get The big golem things to where it gets stuck and it can't attack because the smaller one is blocking it...If you kick it.to the other side of the pit...Little bit off topic but I do that when ever I jungle Sion cause it makes it a tad bit easier before you can get cinder hulk.

Skia AsteriMay 26, 20151 votes

By what metric?

http://champion.gg/champion/Sion/Jungle http://champion.gg/champion/Sion/Top

TotalJerkMay 27, 20151 votes

Note that both his play rate and win rate in jungle have taken a dive since that patch.

Skia AsteriMay 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Note that both his play rate and win rate in jungle have taken a dive since that patch.

And now has a better win rate than top lane Sion...

TransgressorMay 26, 20151 votes

No, not really.

Dunkrius2gMay 26, 20151 votes

If u really want to jungle with Sion then i suggest this small advice. you probably know this but before you hit a camp, have your shield up ffrom before meaning u click ur shield wait for a few seconds so that u can pop after u use ur Q. BUT does that mean these nerfs are justified? idk

Jungle Lux GodMay 27, 20151 votes

How do you figure this?

The shield changes hurt lane Sion a lot harder than jungle Sion.

In lane, the shield pop delay doesn't touch jungle Sion because you can start it early and pop it at the camp, while the delay is a really problem for lane Sion because his enemies can destroy it before it gets popped a lot easier.

In lane, the shield power decrease at early levels hurts for a lot longer because lane Sion maxes it last (instead of first for jungle Sion). It hurts both, but jungle Sion doesn't feel it as long because he brings his shield back to its old values a lot earlier. This also doesn't include the fact that Sion's opponents and jungle camps can pop the shield pretty easily at early levels, so there isn't too much of a difference there.

The shield changes do nerf Sion a lot, but they don't hurt jungle nearly as much as lane Sion.

Tis a nice dayMay 27, 20151 votes

I think that was the intention.

Muted SummonerMay 27, 20151 votes

it hurts him more in lane gives champs like irelia or minions to pop it before you can use it. You can take a few hits from wolves and raptor before popping it but not much the same even for red and blue buff minions Grump will just pop it early game and as for the Golem or rock things just kick the big one to the other side of the small one and it will get stuck and u can auto attack it with only the small rock minion attacking you. Of course if you have cinderhulk that wont work.

This is just what I do for an easier early game with sion if I play him in the jungle. I also take teleport instead of flash. I find it more useful for ganking than flash but you risk getting screwed without flash for invades. Chances are though if you have flash they have flash to so..

n810mMay 27, 20151 votes

Idk what you guys run, but my shield takes one hit from the camps and can still pop and all I have is the 36 health and 3% max from Defensive Tree. Using it earlier should be fine.

magic poleMay 28, 20151 votes

your Q and E allow you to avoid damage for quite a while anyway...idk full charge Q + E into the wall is like 3+ seconds of immunity. it might hurt his first clear but its really not a big deal. Once you're level 5 or so you never fall below 97% hp