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Why is lethality so flawed?

Forhonor321·Feb 16, 2017·11 votes·2,845 views

Let's face it, the boards have been ranting about this for quite some time now. "Lethality is so busted" "X champion has blah blah blah win and pick rate cause of lethality". Point is, Lethality is just not that fun to play against as it is right now, and possibly never will. We're sitting on a meta that, what feels like constantly, has also every champ that can abuse it be chosen, not to mention that it's also around the time that games snowball into stomps rather quickly.

"Oh but Riot's nerfing it currently" ok but unless you play on the PBE and tell me that these nerfs do make a difference, what's stopping anyone from continuing this train disaster of lethality. Originally, it was designed in the assassin update to help assassins with kills but since it's not restricted by attack type, marksmen quickly started abusing it. & are, from what I've seen, the biggest abuses at the moment, especially Quinn since she's already cancerous in top lane if you pick a melee. On top of this, before lethality wasn't that strong to begin with and nobody really picked it. After Riot's buff, it's exploded into this horrendous meta right now. It's basically got me thinking that it's one of those things that either extremely OP/broken/ powerful or under-powered and almost never seen. Along with % Armor pen, tanks just seem to have disappeared from most of the games I play. And don't get me fucking started on how is right now (such a stupid item)!

Bottom line: lethality feels like a major fuck up. It's not fun to play against when there are so many champions who you can pick up and abuse this item, and, to me, it feels like there needs to be a bit more to end this problem than just nerfing a tiny bit off of and that alone.

31 Comments

Rindin14Feb 16, 20175 votes

I think the issue is the mentality that you can buff a "class" of champions.

We saw a similar issue when the tanks got an overhaul a bit ago. Bruisers and the like starting using the "tank" items and were made into death machines with high damage and durability.

Until Riot stops releasing item and mechanic changes intended for only specific champions (or at least finds a way to actually restrict it to the buff's intended target) we will keep having people like the current bruisers and marksmen who abuse the new buffs in ways that they weren't intended.

(on another note, I feel your pain with Lethality, it's really overtuned in my opinion, just didn't think that continuing to rant about it would do any appreciable good)

Warlord ScrapFeb 16, 20172 votes

What if they made champions stats base stats and scaling higher but items gave percentages instead of stats. So lets take bloodthirster for instance. Instead of giving a straight +70 ad how bout it give +70% of base ad. You do this for all stats on items and completely rebalance champ stats. Tanks have the lowest ad/ap but have the highest armor/mr/health. I no this would take a complete overhaul of the gave and im not a balance tester so idk if it would actually work.

Rindin14Feb 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

What if they made champions stats base stats and scaling higher but items gave percentages instead of stats. So lets take bloodthirster for instance. Instead of giving a straight +70 ad how bout it give +70% of base ad. You do this for all stats on items and completely rebalance champ stats. Tanks have the lowest ad/ap but have the highest armor/mr/health. I no this would take a complete overhaul of the gave and im not a balance tester so idk if it would actually work.

I actually really like the concept behind this...

My first thought as far as issues (and understand, I like your idea, just want to help troubleshoot) is that the math gets very messy very fast and could cause other problems

Still, you may be onto something

Warlord ScrapFeb 17, 20172 votes

The main issue i see is it would be hard too see how the stats would boost you in game compared to the system now so utem sets per champ would be an absolute neccessity. Ideally i would like champs to be more powerful and items to be weaker.
Another idea i had was remove lethality from items and give it to assassins in kit as part of there power budget but i dont see how this could work without either making them super oppressive stat sticks or extremely weak champ

NineTailedMysticFeb 17, 20171 votes

And how does this work with AP?

Teridax68Feb 17, 20171 votes

AP is a unique stat in that it doesn't enhance stuff you do already unless you have the scaling for it, so AP items should likely still give flat AP. If a champion isn't meant to scale with AP, they should have weak to low AP scalings, otherwise their scalings should be made adequate. If a champion is meant to not scale too quickly with AP, one potential solution is to have AP scalings on each ability increase with rank, which would keep the early focus on level advantages, while emphasizing item-based scaling later on.

Warlord ScrapFeb 17, 20171 votes

i would think give champ who use ap an amount of ap but take it from there other stats.

Teridax68Feb 17, 20171 votes

I like this idea a lot. We already have experienced serious issues with squishies going for tank builds, and even now tankiness is so heavily based on raw stats from items that damage-dealers are always at risk of picking them and becoming unhealthy. It's also created a balance state where damage-dealers either become so dependent on items that they snowball too hard either way (e.g. Talon, Rengar), or have comfortable enough base damage on their abilities that they get to become bruisers with a full tank build (e.g. Ekko or Yasuo pre-changes), which isn't a great situation.

Another thing it would help with is that it could make per-champion balancing a lot easier in many cases: if the issue with a particular champion is that they deal too little damage per hit, then they could simply have their base AD increased, and vice versa, which would also modify their item scaling without requiring some complicated formula on their kit, (e.g. Jhin and Kalista's innates). It also means that the ones most likely to build a certain stat are those who already have it in large amounts, so tanks would be the most naturally tanky class, juggernauts would have the most AD at all times, etc., which could make item building more intuitive (we wouldn't have cases like Shen, for example, whose base health and armor values are abysmal simply because of how he's expected to build tanky).

FTWolfFeb 17, 20171 votes

Not just high damage but low cost, high armor, high base damages, coupled with high cdr made tanks insane and actually anyone you really wanted to play with sunfire and IBG it was the busted combo

FTWolfFeb 17, 20171 votes

Armor pen as a whole was so much less flawed

JavelinJoeFeb 17, 20172 votes

You forgot about Jayce and Draven

Mira Arya EntheFeb 17, 20172 votes

Don't forget Riven (I play her, not hating) Pantheon Khazix Rengar Jayce

Are all stupid with EoN, not just traditional ADCs

doodlebob666Feb 17, 20172 votes

do kha, and rengar count? i mean they were insane before lethality buffs while building different items, same with jayce. They seem more like champs that are flat overpowered

FTWolfFeb 17, 20171 votes

^

DragonSheaFeb 17, 20172 votes

Ghouls and Tentacles make for good bird counter. Yorick , Illaoi

(And Good Hen Tie collections, for valor ofc)

Risen29Feb 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Why is lethality so flawed?

It's not. it's functioning exactly as intended. Ignorant people just aren't adapting in the way they are suppose to.

Lethality itself is no more powerful than the three flat armor pen items we had before.

It blows up only people who have built no defensive items. It seriously struggles with people who have built a couple of hybrid defense items or dedicated defense items. It is completely useless against someone who has gone heavy defense.

That's how it's suppose to function.

The problem is you end up with players who keep building as glass cannons, even when they are behind, and wonder why they keep dying when they are caught out. They don't understand that going 70% damage and 30% defense will actually make them 100% more effective because they won't die to burst.

Either stay behind your tank/support and let them peel for you, or weave armor/health into your builds.

A 300 gold cloth armor is all you need to counter the lethality on a 3250 gold item.

I just got finished winning a game we would have otherwise lost, as Swain, because I built mostly HP/AP items with Zhonyas against a team where their Varus, Lucian, and Garen were all stacking lethality. They were completely useless against me. I was able to repeatedly dive in and scatter their whole team because flat armor pen is crap against defensive items. But people don't realize that, they just keep building it because they think it's overpowered.

Lucian swapped out all his flat pen at the end of the game for percentage pen and attack speed/crit. But only because I told them they were losing because they had all flat armor pen. Varus also sold one of his flat pens for a percentage pen. Garen scrapped all his flat pen for defense. They did start to do a lot better, and almost won because of it, but it was too late because by the time I told them they had already lost too much infrastructure.

Linna ExcelFeb 16, 20171 votes

IMO the biggest flaw in lethality is that it's not melee only. Do that and you can balance it for the melee assassins it was intended for.

Warlord ScrapFeb 16, 20171 votes

Why not make lethality melee only like tiamat is. Or runaans and firecannon is ranged only.
Or ever harsher give each class specific items. Change the tanks only played as supps to supps leona/blitz im lookin at you. This would also stop the mage supp meta at the same time as they wouldnt have access to support items. Also no more marksman utilizing tank items so item must be nerfed hurting the class they were itended for.

Asayake 5150glowFeb 17, 20171 votes

Because getting oneshot isn't fun.

Assassins and bursty bruisers build Lethality, and those classes oneshot.

Noble FoxFeb 17, 20171 votes

Because Flat armor pen can NEVER be balanced, when it takes away from total armor and not bonus. Lethality is supposed to give a counter to armor right? Well then why is it taking away base armor instead of taking away bonus armor? You have people like Quinn and Varus and Jayce and Riven, who, even before this lethality craze, were doing MASSIVE damage with their abiltiies, Riven less so than the others, but you get my point. They are now doing true damage with many of their abilities on anyone that has less than 60 armor.

Problem number 2: Every lethality item has super good fucking bonus effects other than lethality.

Duskblade, massive true damage proc and out of combat movespeed. 65 AD as well.

Youmuu's, massive MS steroid and exellent buildpath, with 10% cdr. Perfect for all AD Casters. 60 AD as well.

Duskblade, ridiculously short CD spell shield, GREAT MR value for the gold, and huge 60 AD. Never mind the fact that Banshees veil already exists FOR THIS EXACT NICHE ITEM SLOT, the effect is too fucking good, and then it got buffed for some reason, I assume LCS big plays.

Forhonor321Feb 17, 20171 votes

Duskblade, ridiculously short CD spell shield, GREAT MR value for the gold, and huge 60 AD. Never mind the fact that Banshees veil already exists FOR THIS EXACT NICHE ITEM SLOT, the effect is too fucking good, and then it got buffed for some reason, I assume LCS big plays.

Don't you mean Veil of Night?

ragdollomegaFeb 17, 20173 votes

Lethality isn't supposed to be a counter to armor, it's the other way around. % armor pen is supposed to counter armor. However, currently it seems they are being built together to make builds that are abnormally effective against armor.

Risen29Feb 17, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=A99 Steaksauce,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MgsP5pmV,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2017-02-17T11:49:06.876+0000)

Lethality isn't supposed to be a counter to armor, it's the other way around. % armor pen is supposed to counter armor.

The reverse is also true: Armor counters lethality.

The more armor you have, the more useless lethality is. 50 armor off 300 won't do squat to help you burst them down. But 50 armor off someone who has built no armor (relying only on their base armor) usually means the difference between securing a kill or them getting away (or worse, turning around and killing you with their burst).

However, currently it seems they are being built together to make builds that are abnormally effective against armor.

People say that, but it's not even remotely true.

A full build tank could easily have 500 armor. A dominiks brings them down to 275 armor, which mitigates 74% of damage. Applying three items of lethality only brings their armor down to 225. Which is still 70% damage reduction.

Nobody, absolutely nobody, is going to be able to burst down a tank who has 70% damage reduction on top of all the health that comes from those items.

Lethality is a complete waste of gold against tanks. If your really want to kill a tank, you should get attack speed, crit, and a black cleaver. But don't waste your item slots on flat armor pen.

ragdollomegaFeb 17, 20172 votes

The reverse is also true: Armor counters lethality.

Right, that is what I meant. Specifically, lethality is supposed to counter base armor while bought armor counters lethality and %pen counters bought armor.

People say that, but it's not even remotely true.

A full build tank could easily have 500 armor. A dominiks brings them down to 275 armor, which mitigates 74% of damage. Applying three items of lethality only brings their armor down to 225. Which is still 70% damage reduction.

I wouldn't say easily, you'd have to miss out on getting banshee/spirit visage and have to get all the pure armor items, so your down in the health needed to back up your armor stacking and your not so great against magic damage now. Plus you forgot to include black cleaver armor shred which is an important part of the equation as only 1 person really needs it to benefit the whole team and if you have a bruiser on your team, that's typically one of the first items they get.

Lethality is a complete waste of gold against tanks. If your really want to kill a tank, you should get attack speed, crit, and a black cleaver.

Lethality on it's own, yes. However when combined with black cleaver and/or dominiks is when the trouble comes about.

Risen29Feb 17, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=A99 Steaksauce,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MgsP5pmV,comment-id=0005000100000000,timestamp=2017-02-17T13:35:48.862+0000)

Lethality on it's own, yes. However when combined with black cleaver and/or dominiks is when the trouble comes about.

That's where you're wrong. As I already pointed out with the math, the gains you get from adding three flat lethality items on top of a dominiks and black cleaver is miniscule compared with the cost and item slots it requires. It doesn't matter if you have 300 or 500 armor, you still don't gain as much from flat lethality in that scenerio as you would with other damage items. You would do vastly more damage if you went with AD/attack speed/crit items for those three slots instead of lethality.

That proves lethality isn't causing a problem when stacked with percentage pen, because it's not actually doing as much damage as AD/AS/Crit does when paired with percentage pen.

And that's fine, that's functioning as intended. AS/Crit/AD/percentage pen is suppose to be the superior tank killer. Flat pen is the squishy killer, but you might use a percentage pen to deal with a squishy that has built a single armor item. Your flat pen deals with their base armor, and then your whisper item cuts out half of their bought armor. They still have armor, but if you're trying to burst down a squishy you need all the help you can get.

The problem for the assassin is, once you start building more than just a single armor item, killing players in a single burst is usually off the table as an option - even with full flat pen and a whisper.

That's why tanks or bruisers, with their multiple armor items and stacked HP, are a nightmare for lethality stacking players because they don't have the attack speed necessary to win most of those fights 1vs1 before they die to return fire.

ragdollomegaFeb 18, 20171 votes

The reduction isn't so bad when your an all out armor build other than, you know, all the other problems I mentioned before (not enough health, lose out on mr). The reduction against a typical tank build is actually substantial. You also still didn't include black cleaver into the equation, you just sort of mention it like you did because I brought it up, but you really didn't bother recalculating. You also didn't include pen runes and any pen from the mastery tree, I was including rune and mastery armor in the armor count that tanks can achieve.

Also crit builds ain't got shit on pen builds if they get crushed by the early power that champs that use pen builds get and thus prevent them from getting the proper gold to make the far more expensive crit builds.

Crit might be better at dealing with tanks, but pen builds do good enough of a job much earlier and with a much cheaper cost to boot, the difference doesn't really matter in a game that is typically ended by mid game currently.

If you hadn't noticed, there are only 2 or 3 tanks that are doing well (cus their a bit of a balance issue on their own) in a game currently filled to the brim with champs that build this build that tanks should work well against. All the others tanks are pretty down in the dumps right now, the evidence is already there. Your math (that is a bit biased since you only calculate in favor of your result instead of a neutral disposition) can't explain away the current state of tanks (barring the excessive few).

The DeckownerFeb 17, 20171 votes

The stat isn't even the real issue as numbers can easily be manipulated, it's the item active that makes lethality op.

Red WreckageFeb 17, 20171 votes

wtf noob

you don't even play a single AD assassin.

and yet you're here complaining about lethality declaring it flawed lmfao. you play shit like olaf/zac/hecarim. if u getting pwnd by AD assassins(not garbage like quinn/varus etc.) you're not playing your champs right.

TargonFeb 17, 20171 votes

I don't think lethality is fundamentally flawed, but I think that the lethality/armor penetration stacking + all of the passives on the lethality items makes the combination really busted. The only champions that can out duel [ item 3142 item 3147 item 3814 item 3071 item 3036 + lethality runes/masteries] are other champions that build this way. And pers

At least with the magic penetration items and runes available, building MR against Akali Diana Fizz Katarina feels meaningful. Building armor against a Rengar Khazix Jayce Varus MissFortune - doesn't feel as meaningful when such a massive chunk of it can easily be removed.

Risen29Feb 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I don't think lethality is fundamentally flawed, but I think that the lethality/armor penetration stacking + all of the passives on the lethality items makes the combination really busted. The only champions that can out duel [ + lethality runes/masteries] are other champions that build this way. And pers

At least with the magic penetration items and runes available, building MR against feels meaningful. Building armor against a - doesn't feel as meaningful when such a massive chunk of it can easily be removed.

You're obviously doing it wrong.

I built a combination of health/AP items and armor on Swain against lethality stacking Varus and Lucian, and it completely turned the tide of the match in our favor. Early game we were losing so bad they had twice as many kills as us (I wasn't dying, but some of my teammates were feeding). But once I got a few items I was able to negate all of their lethality and stomp over them for easy kills.

What people also don't understand: lethality is so bad against a couple pieces of armor that players are better off building Cleaver/Dominiks/attack speed/AD if they want to kill someone who has stacked defense. Sure, you "could" stack lethality on top of percentage pen, but the truth is you gain almost nothing by doing that. And what you lose in attack speed can mean the difference between winning or losing against someone who has heavy defense and decent damage.

IncarcerationFeb 18, 20171 votes

I'm going to do the math for a super tank like Maokai and a full glass cannon Miss Fortune, and this will only include realistic situations. I will include runes and assume the rune pages by what the most popular runes, builds, masteries, etc. are for both according to op.gg, and champion.gg.

Maokai Build: item 3110 item 3068 item 3065 item 3111 item 3143 item 3026 Maokai Base Armor: 98 + 27 = 125 Maokai Additional Armor: 260 Maokai Armor: 385

Miss Fortune Build: item 3071 item 3147 item 3036 item 3814 item 3142 item 3006

64.4 Lethality + 30% armor penetration + 45% bonus armor penetration.

.45260 = 117 385 - 117 = 268 .3268 = 80.4 268 - 80.4 = 187.6 187.6 - 64.4 = 123.2

Maokai has 123.2 armor after all armor reduction items are applied.

Conclusion: Lethality is not flawed because its counter, tanks, appropriately deal with all the armor penetration while this build itself is only good against squishy teams since it virtually eliminates all armor that a squishy can have even if they build one armor item. However, squishy teams can deal with it by just building items that gives them health and some resistances.

Mages can build
AD carries are going to have a much harder time, but they can build

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