Top lane Karma is extreme cancer

Blåbæret·Jan 21, 2017·35 votes·4,076 views

For the love of everything good in this world, can you nerf this champ once and for all?

74 Comments

IxtaliKingJan 21, 201721 votes

Karma needs a power shift, the way her kit works at the moment is frankly poor. Riot have tried too hard to make her an Enchanter against the wishes of her community, and it's been proven that Enchanters can't really be balanced in solo lanes (mostly top). Karma needs to go back to being more of a battlemage, so she can be balanced better for solo lanes. SilverSquid's proposed quick fix is the general kind of direction she needs, imo.

LexyyJan 21, 201713 votes

I wish they would make her more of a battlemage :( I want mid Karma to be back

IxtaliKingJan 21, 20178 votes

I'm just worried that Riot's view of Karma as an Enchanter will make them take away her damage. There are a lot of players out there who don't know Karma and think she is supposed to be some basic and typical Enchanter support, and that's all Riot's fault.

MisterShamelessJan 21, 20175 votes

I've actually asked SilverSquid about this concern and Silver gave a nice answer.

{quoted}

Short answer: No.

Their assesment in the 7.1 patch only targeted her role, not her subclasses. She indeed was one of the most picked supports in this season and that was a problem, since she is so much of a generalist. A boring one too. As far as I have seen, ever since the subclass stuff, they try to do reworks in accordance to champions classes ("mage support" is kind of outdated). Following Meddlers words, they most likely consider her a battlemage/enchanter hybrid and they thought about targetting her in an enchanter (new term) or Ionian update.

For what they are gonna do.... I can't imagine them EVER doing something to Karma again (on the scale of a mini-rework or bigger) without considering our opinion. Even if they don't talk to us most of the time, there is NO way they don't know of our passion, persistence and pertinence in this matter. The day Riot asks for our opinion on this matter, expect me. And if I don't see it, I am sure Warden Karma will contact me immediately, so we can get to work.

Until that day I will stay a useful nuissance as I have been. And make sure Riot doesn't forget what we consider a proper battlemage/enchanter to be.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/voHAIQmP-can-we-just-bring-karma-back-to-how-she-was-before-patch-66?comment=000100000000

IxtaliKingJan 21, 20173 votes

He makes a good point as always. Only problem is, on their subclass list she's an Enchanter 1st, as well Rioters saying Enchanter is Karma's closest overall fit. I hope when it's Karma's turn for a rework (whatever the scope), Riot listens to her community. It wouldn't be the 1st or 2nd or even 3rd time ignoring us in favor of trying to make her appeal to everyone else.

3TWarriorJan 22, 20175 votes

the only problem is that riot is trying to change their game above and beyond what is necessary XD

people liked karma because she could do her job: damage the enemy, provide situational crowd control and protect the team now and again, even aiding finishers with her shield

now....she doesn't quite do that anymore and is supposed to be a "support"

it's not like it's wrong for supports to do damage...heck, the LCS and average players love mage supports for that exact reason

NineTailedMysticJan 22, 20171 votes

Please no. Solo lane Karma is way too disgusting.

MisterShamelessJan 22, 20171 votes

There was nothing wrong with solo lane Karma for 3 seasons until patch 6.6 She was sitting on 45% win rate for support and 47% for mid, after patch 6.6 she is only peaking at 49% for both mid and support with it now steadily declining back downward after her recent nerf to W.

NineTailedMysticJan 22, 20171 votes

And how is that relevant to now? What matters now is that she's disgusting, not what she was pre 6.6.

MisterShamelessJan 22, 20174 votes

All that changed was her shield, her Q damage has been the same since her rework, but I will agree saying win rates may have been off topic, my bad.

dominusxJan 21, 201712 votes

why its fine she just presses R E with locket and everything is unkillable. oh if she goes ap she oneshots people with R Q alone

ArakadiaJan 21, 20176 votes

oh if she goes ap she oneshots people with R Q alone

I'm assuming this was an intended exaggeration?

dominusxJan 21, 20175 votes

not really her dmg is Q and W her Q can do 80% of a carry's health so yeh. well u can dodge the other 30% but still it exists there

Nameless VoiceJan 21, 201712 votes

It is her ultimate and her only real damage spell.

It only does 80% of a carry's health if she's fed, her target has no defensive items, and they stand in it for long enough to get hit by the secondary explosion. Most carries are too mobile (even if just from speed boosts / movement speed items) to be hit with both parts of it unless they are locked down with lots of hard CC first.

So, yes, in the ideal situation it can do a lot of damage, but a lot of other mages can do much more damage much more reliably.

NineTailedMysticJan 22, 20171 votes

Implying her R isn't almost always available and available from level 1?

3TWarriorJan 22, 20174 votes

if it wasn't, she would literally be a "do not pick this champion" champion

her Q damage is essential to her kit unless riot completely remakes her

take soraka for example, she is one of the ONLY champions left with a silence...why is that? because it became necessary for her kit to even function other than as a heal-bot, which she does not get to be until mid-game

NineTailedMysticJan 22, 20171 votes

I'm not saying she doesn't need it, I'm saying that Karma needs a rework.

IxtaliKingJan 21, 201714 votes

{quoted}

why its fine she just presses R E with locket and everything is unkillable. oh if she goes ap she oneshots people with R Q alone

I agree that her AoE shielding can be a bit overbearing, especially if you throw in a locket. However, she's a mage and her RQ is pretty much all the damage she has.

MisterShamelessJan 21, 20177 votes

Riot refuses to revert her 6.6 regardless of what the Karma mains advised against it.

NineTailedMysticJan 22, 20171 votes

Yes, and it's frustrating when you're punished so hard for getting hit one time out of all the Q and RQs she's thrown.

See: Blitz.

Irelia BotJan 22, 20174 votes

Arhi landed charm and now I am dead...

Double standards OP

NineTailedMysticJan 22, 20171 votes

Ahri E leads into a combo aka more than 1 spell. A single Karma RQ almost kills you beyond laning phase.

Irelia BotJan 22, 20171 votes

A single Blitz hook or Karma Q does not mean Death. It is everything added in with it that results in death.

NineTailedMysticJan 22, 20171 votes

A single Ahri E with nothing behind it does nothing. A Karma Q or RQ does a fuck ton of damage because most of her kits damage is backloaded into it, similar to Taliyah Q and Zilean Q.

3TWarriorJan 22, 20174 votes

except that a good ahri player can land their entire kit in that one instant

karma...does not get that chance. basically a third of her damage is the first hit of her Q and then the other two thirds are her Q detonation. Her W does deal damage but is now mainly utility and not offense

it's her job to be a generalist, just like zilean's job is to keep people from rushing in without consequences and to neutralize assassins

also, Karma only does a large amount of damage to targets with low magic resist. If the tank blocks her spell, it will laugh off her damage

zilean was actually one of my personal favorites, capable of doing up to 2000 damage from his bombs every couple of seconds, compared to karma, that's a lot and he actually "has" an ultimate

NineTailedMysticJan 22, 20171 votes

We were comparing single abilities. Yes, Ahri E normally leads into a combo. I think that's fair for a relatively slow, 12s static CD, and eats a good chunk of Mana, CC. By itself however, Charm's damage is trivial especially because the skill is maxed last.

However, Karma's Q has almost all of her kits damage backloaded into RQ and even normal Q does a good chunk of damage, that she puts herself at no risk to use for insane damage if it hits, and if I recall correctly can Q RQ because R resets her abilities CDs.

Why does a utility Mage get such a high damage ability? I have the same issue with Orianna.

3TWarriorJan 22, 20174 votes

if Karma could reset her cooldowns, then there might be reason to nerf her for the high damage, but, presently until she gets cooldown reduction, her Q is on at least a 5 second cooldown and her ultimate 36 minus up to 3 seconds per ability hit/or half for an auto attack

so, she does recover quickly, but compared to most mages, her kit is fairly stable, not to mention entirely telegraphed as it is her only real offensive ability

it is not really fair to be judgemental against one of the lowest damage mages. She has very good sustained damage, but if she misses, her entire kit rolls over, just like zilean

her job is to be well-balanced for the team and to provide decent engage. Presently, she does that just fine

if you want to compare basic abilities to other mage-like characters, there is illaoi ( 1.6 AD ratio on her Q + base damage on a 6 second cooldown) and that's not even her whole kit considering that she can do better as a bruiser or tank than as a spellcaster but is lethal at both while recovering hp from any champion she hits

there's twisted fate, who although he has a high win-rate, is actually one of the lowest of damages for mages and has almost the entirety of his kit based on landing his Q or more appropriately, landing his Q after stunning an opponent

ziggs actually has the same damage as karma on a much lower cooldown

few people play KogMage, but his damages are all roughly equal to one karma Q for every ability

karma is a mage, but when it comes to damage, most people just think her damage is high because they are used to seeing her as support, which, albeit useful, karma can function as other roles and was intended to...I don't know where riot just started pulling this "no solo lane" nonsense from. Ranged characters have always had a place in solo lanes and if not used properly, they get punished: Quinn , Jayce , Swain , Morgana , Heimerdinger (who basically does not exist anymore), Chogath (lol, he's less telegraphed than karma and puts the majority of his kit into his Q XD)

coreychichiJan 22, 20175 votes

If you're standing around for the second detonation you deserve the damage.

ValyrianBladeJan 21, 201710 votes

I've seen tank karma on a pro-stream.

It IS disgusting.

ArakadiaJan 21, 20178 votes

Please don't nerf karma again. Force her out of top lane, but don't nerf the other lanes for Karma. Karma support is far healthier than Top Karma.

In general, Karma does need a rework though.

MisterShamelessJan 21, 20178 votes

The 7.1 Karma nerf nerfed all solo lane Karmas so Top Karma already received a nerf.

WoonStruckJan 22, 20178 votes

Karma is extreme cancer

FTFY

She needs a VGU that makes her a battle-mage like originally intended. This half-mage, half-support bullshit isn't what Karma was.

Give her the rework she originally deserved, not this half-assed cancer.

BlåbæretJan 22, 20172 votes

{quoted}

FTFY

She needs a VGU that makes her a battle-mage like originally intended. This half-mage, half-support bullshit isn't what Karma was.

Give her the rework she originally deserved, not this half-assed cancer.

Preach brother, preach.

2Charmnot2CharmJan 21, 20176 votes

https://clips.twitch.tv/tonytwobits/PowerfulCoyoteTTours

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

MisterShamelessJan 21, 20173 votes

"Tank Karma does too much damage, totally broken" says glass cannons. Seems like a very common complaint about tanks when carries don't bother building defense items like item 3102 or item 3026 Also while not building any tank killer items while still expecting to chunk them. I still see these complaints in the gold elo.

2Charmnot2CharmJan 21, 20176 votes

There is also a 800 gold item that can easily screw over her sustain as any ad damage champ but i doubt low elos will build it.

Hyrum GraffJan 22, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Carries U,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Mb41tVXr,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2017-01-21T22:18:12.915+0000)

There is also a 800 gold item that can easily screw over her sustain as any ad damage champ but i doubt low elos will build it.

One thing though: If you walk away for long enough to drop gw, you can shield to run in range and get off the first tick of your W heal before they pop the shield and apply gw.

Source: karma main

SilverSquidJan 22, 20171 votes

To be fair, that's a Tier1 tower&full tank Sion against a lvl16 and 3-4 item champion, but....

JESUS CHRIST THIS CAN'T BE INTENDED!!!!

I would love to finally have a talk with Riot on how to fix this champion. Removing the random tankscaling from RW would be step 1 of many...

The DeckownerJan 21, 20176 votes

The W heal is disgusting.

GrReaper96Jan 21, 20172 votes

40% missing health ftw

Hyrum GraffJan 22, 20176 votes

Karma main here. I play her in mid, supp, and top. I completely agree with you that tank karma is BS. I don't agree that it's actually overpowered (strong, especially vs uncoordinated teams, but not too strong), but it's a horrible playstyle that's not even really fun to play as.

So, I agree with top comment. Karma doesn't need straight up nerfs. She needs a rework.

LiofaJan 21, 20174 votes

Karma is cancer in every lane

3TWarriorJan 22, 20174 votes

the only characters karma has an advantage against are melees without any engage or ranged abilties...there are not many of those

BlåbæretJan 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

the only characters karma has an advantage against are melees without any engage or ranged abilties...there are not many of those

She has an advantage against all melees man, lol. She can kite you forever, with or without an engage.

3TWarriorJan 22, 20173 votes

not really. Most melee can flash-dash to her and chunk her for more than 50% of her hp

there is this new tank karma build going around, but if I am right, that build only functions if the opponent lets karma play it safe and farm with her abilities

jax loves opponents who can not duel him directly, darius...if you ever end up in his range post 6, he will kill you, dr mundo...mundo goes where he pleases ^^ , mordekaiser...he's not a top laner anymore but his tankiness could handle karma , chogath has every advantage in the book against her, another ranged character is not the best choice but so long as the player knows what they are doing, karma has no defenses other than her shield. Aatrox can fight her hand to hand or with ranged abilities, Swain ...this guy...he would just love to walk in and watch karma cry, MasterYi : can not be slowed and can Q-dodge her root,

there are tons of examples, but most of it involves adapting how you play, which for karma is not even entirely necessary and barely considered a change because it is just using flash or instead face-pounding your not so tanky opponent ^^

currently, the only issue karma has in top lane is something every ranged character abuses: they won't get turret dived without assistance from the jungler or mid-laner

Iźuku MidoriyaJan 21, 20173 votes

Champs like karma or sona need to be toned down from all the damage they deal

VoraciousXJan 21, 20173 votes

Went Karma top with item 3107 item 3190 item 3158 item 3504 item 3222 item 3089 and went 11/2/6 once. Blame the fact that shield and heal items are so OP and Karma has high base damage. Late game I was still a threat just because of how much shielding and healing I had as well as how much I could spam due to all the mana regen plus my damage was still nice with the spam, and I could also be a secondary support because of item 3504 item 3107 item 3190

Hyrum GraffJan 22, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Went top with and went 11/2/6 once. Blame the fact that shield and heal items are so OP and Karma has high base damage. Late game I was still a threat just because of how much shielding and healing I had as well as how much I could spam due to all the mana regen plus my damage was still nice with the spam, and I could also be a secondary support because of

I'd drop something for visage. You can't turn down that much tankiness and healing.

VoraciousXJan 22, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Mb41tVXr,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2017-01-22T01:23:56.849+0000)

I'd drop something for visage. You can't turn down that much tankiness and healing.

Maybe Rabadons, since I picked support items purely to prove how OP they were that I could use them without their main purpose and still wreck, although the rabadons gave me more damage which I kinda needed. Still though it was just to prove a point. I don't play Karma much.