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Veigar "DFG Compensation"

Stacona··13 votes·2,323 views

Personally I think Veigar is perfectly fine right now, but if he were to get a buff I would add it to his only difficult to use/master ability and the effect being easily avoidable as well as long the Veigar is not super good (like Veigar super main in Masters/Challenger) with his accuracy. The proposition is something like: Event Horizon - stunned enemies gain a debuff for 1.5/1.75/2/2.25/2.5 seconds (same duration as his stun, reason to why it is a debuff is that it doesn't lower with tenacity, but still removed with Quicksilver Sash) reducing the enemies' magic resistance by 12/14/16/18/20%. This will basically grant Veigar more damage (and utility) without directly giving him more damage (which he doesn't need). Flat shred is not recommended both because Veigar is suppose to be a late game champion and just makes squishies die faster, there needs to be some kind of counter play in allowing the chance for the squishy to survive to fight back. To be blunt it is a death trap for a reason.

55 Comments

Chaotic Reks11 votes

The only compensation veigar really needs: HIS DAMN LAUGH BACK

ThunderDad4 votes

TBH veigar didnt need death fire grasp lol. The only time people got it was for one vs ones 1000 ap.

Flay and Pray1 votes

{quoted}

TBH veigar didnt need death fire grasp lol. The only time people got it was for one vs ones 1000 ap.

This isn't true whatsoever. DaBox a challenger Veigar only main rushes DFG every single game. It's what allowed him to pick up kills early and extremely late.

4th3t0s1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Flay and Pray,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ma6eNpAU,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2015-02-04T04:05:56.433+0000)

This isn't true whatsoever. DaBox a challenger Veigar only main rushes DFG every single game. It's what allowed him to pick up kills early and extremely late.

Name another assassin-burst mage this didn't apply to

Flay and Pray1 votes

{quoted}

Name another assassin-burst mage this didn't apply to

Other assassin burst mages either have mobility Leblanc and lower cooldowns or longer range Syndra. Neither of them had Veigars short range or mana problems and much lower cooldowns.

4th3t0s1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Flay and Pray,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ma6eNpAU,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-04T15:00:19.499+0000)

Other assassin burst mages either have mobility Leblanc and lower cooldowns or longer range Syndra. Neither of them had Veigars short range or mana problems and much lower cooldowns.

You're missing my point, both leblanc or syndra have far superior mobility or range, like you said, yet still possess the damage to delete a squishy target; he still suffers from an abysmal early game for a higher payoff if he makes it to mid/lategame.

Flay and Pray1 votes

You're missing my point, both leblanc or syndra have far superior mobility or range, like you said, yet still possess the damage to delete a squishy target; he still suffers from an abysmal early game for a higher payoff if he makes it to mid/lategame.

I got your point, what I'm saying is it isn't correct. Your saying Veigar has an abysmal early game for a better payoff mid/late game. Leblanc and Syndra have a much better early game for the same if not greater payoff late game. Syndra is able to keep up constant AOE burst in team fights and has much lower CDs across the board. Leblanc also has much lower CDs with more mobility. Both have longer range than him, both excel at bursting people. Veigar bursts one person and leaves like you said. Once he uses his E, W, and R which are necessary to use when bursting most targets he can't do much since his q is so short range and single target. Syndra and Leblanc are able to either wait for their ult or burst people with constant Q's and W's.

4th3t0s1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Flay and Pray,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ma6eNpAU,comment-id=000800000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-04T21:03:03.444+0000)

I got your point, what I'm saying is it isn't correct. Your saying Veigar has an abysmal early game for a better payoff mid/late game. Leblanc and Syndra have a much better early game for the same if not greater payoff late game. Syndra is able to keep up constant AOE burst in team fights and has much lower CDs across the board. Leblanc also has much lower CDs with more mobility. Both have longer range than him, both excel at bursting people. Veigar bursts one person and leaves like you said. Once he uses his E, W, and R which are necessary to use when bursting most targets he can't do much since his q is so short range and single target. Syndra and Leblanc are able to either wait for their ult or burst people with constant Q's and W's.

Eh, guess I just don't mind it as much, been playing him since s2. And it's hard to place a value on his ap stacking gimmick, that's really what makes him a constant threat the longer the game goes, so don't forget about that.

Essentially, he's been one of my favorite champions since launch, and he's been in similar territory with poppy, as far as "toxic" goes. I'm just afraid that any buffs he could get for dfg being gone would throw him too off balance and under Riot's scope for a rework, I, and I believe many out there, do NOT want that.

Sukishoo3 votes

He's fine, doesn't need changes. That is all.

Zahz3 votes

I dont really see him getting buffed. His ult is so powerful already i would think he killed most before he even thought to use dfg

Stacona2 votes

he doesn't really need buffs, but if anything this is what the buff would be --- things i like to see more of is reward veigar for team play and teamfighting rather than farming- like giving him AP from kills and assists and not just kills

Audiomancy3 votes

DFG removal hurts Veigar's mid game quite a bit. I'd say giving him a % Mana Recovery mechanic on a Q Kill would be good compensation, especially now that mana regen items are garbage.

Stacona1 votes

morellos has double the regen it does this season than last season - and veigar can up to double all his regen values

Audiomancy1 votes

{quoted}

morellos has double the regen it does this season than last season - and veigar can up to double all his regen values

And yet he still runs out of mana by last-hitting with Q alone.

Leblancs Boob3 votes

Ok not saying that Veigar doesn't need compensation but buffing his E is literally the last thing he would ever need. His E is literally better than most champion ults.

A Slime Appears2 votes

Finally someone with logic.

Stacona1 votes

Yes his stun is very strong - but it is the only ability that has counterplay since the stun is extremely hard to land (stun, not the trap itself) and you can avoid getting stunned in most cases since Veigar has a very good chance of missing it - this is why the compensation would be on his E if anything, his Q-R has no counterplay outside of staying away from his range

4th3t0s1 votes

{quoted}

Yes his stun is very strong - but it is the only ability that has counterplay since the stun is extremely hard to land (stun, not the trap itself) and you can avoid getting stunned in most cases since Veigar has a very good chance of missing it - this is why the compensation would be on his E if anything, his Q-R has no counterplay outside of staying away from his range

Excuse me, Q>R has counterplay in the same regard as ANY OTHER TARGETED ABILITY. Zhonyas, untargetable skills, itemization, etc. I will say again, his e already borderline-ult territory, LEAVE IT ALONE.

Also, you completely forgot about his w, which counterplay is not standing in it like a fool.

Killer X 122 votes

I hope they don't give Veigar any compensation honestly. You do not, and have never needed, the DFG to 100-0 someone with just an ult+q or even just the ult.

EDIT: I mean...maybe if his ult was a skill shot instead of targeted..but c'mon lol

Fizz is not Fish3 votes

Make a damage-only single-target ULT to be a skill shot?

Killer X 122 votes

Lol, when it can hit for 1500 i don't see why not. Though i suppose ADC auto attacks do that much.

Also my comment was in reference to if they decided to give him DFG compensation somewhere else in his kit...which he doesn't need. By connection we wouldn't need to make the ult a skill shot.

Flay and Pray2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Killer X 12,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ma6eNpAU,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-02-03T21:01:20.993+0000)

I hope they don't give Veigar any compensation honestly. You do not, and have never needed, the DFG to 100-0 someone with just an ult+q or even just the ult.

EDIT: I mean...maybe if his ult was a skill shot instead of targeted..but c'mon lol

Veigar can instantly kill SQUISHYS with his combo however look at it this way. He has incredibly short range, and huge mana costs giving him a terrible early game. He shines in the mid game taking advantage of his burst and stun, however he starts to become less effective as the game goes on. It becomes harder for him to q farm and almost impossible to catch people out. Once the enemy has banshees and merc treads he can't get close to them. What allowed him to burst these targets and pop the banshees shield was DFG. While he is still able to burst some targets, he really just bursts one person and leaves unless the enemy was grouped on top of each other. Then look at leblanc for example. She has incredibly low cool downs, and can burst people with nothing but W and Q combo, but with more escapes and mobility. Veigar makes up for having no mobility due to his stun, but once he uses it, he is open to anything and everyone to jump on him. There is honestly no reason to play him over other mid laners at the moment.

4th3t0s8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Flay and Pray,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ma6eNpAU,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2015-02-03T21:14:45.568+0000)

Veigar he starts to become less effective as the game goes on

............................ ............................ ............................ ..................What?

Champion Skin5 votes

Veigar struggles to get to the priority targets late game when everyone is grouped up and late game he can't really burst that Tank with a Banshee's Veil and a lot of hp and some MR (unless someone has let Veigar farm way way too much)) And it get's harder and harder to farm as people are mostly just grouped up and deleting waves (and if you leave your team they will probably get caught or something and lose the 4v5)

Flay and Pray3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ma6eNpAU,comment-id=0000000200000000,timestamp=2015-02-03T23:43:07.197+0000)

Veigar struggles to get to the priority targets late game when everyone is grouped up and late game he can't really burst that Tank with a Banshee's Veil and a lot of hp and some MR (unless someone has let Veigar farm way way too much)) And it get's harder and harder to farm as people are mostly just grouped up and deleting waves (and if you leave your team they will probably get caught or something and lose the 4v5)

Thank you, I didn't really word my post very well but you summed it up pretty well here. Most people just think infinite scaling = OP late game when sadly it's not true in Veigars case.

ImTheSideKick1 votes

idk about you... but I normally have 1k ap at 40 min and can delete even tanks

oh you have a bv? well I have twin shadows to pop that oh you have a assassin? I have a stun and a hourglass oh you have a tank? I have a lichbane and void staff

I see so many people dark matter farming all early and mid game, makes me sad my build will have mobility (I like to get in and out) lichbane, deathcap, hourglass, voidstaff last item is either nashor (200 + extra aa damage and the cdr works great with the one mastery spell weaving or w/e) or twin shadow (to pop bv)

a tank with with 4.6k hp, bv and 300 + mr?.... 40 mins inill always be able to twin shadow -pop bv- stun, dark matte, r, q aa -lichbane powered- = dead tank

once tank is dead the rest is easy, q and aa at that time will do enough to kill carries

4th3t0s2 votes

{quoted}

idk about you... but I normally have 1k ap at 40 min and can delete even tanks

oh you have a bv? well I have twin shadows to pop that oh you have a assassin? I have a stun and a hourglass oh you have a tank? I have a lichbane and void staff

I see so many people dark matter farming all early and mid game, makes me sad my build will have mobility (I like to get in and out) lichbane, deathcap, hourglass, voidstaff last item is either nashor (200 + extra aa damage and the cdr works great with the one mastery spell weaving or w/e) or twin shadow (to pop bv)

a tank with with 4.6k hp, bv and 300 + mr?.... 40 mins inill always be able to twin shadow -pop bv- stun, dark matte, r, q aa -lichbane powered- = dead tank

If you're standing there long enough to get a lichbane aa off, the other team should have killed you already

ImTheSideKick1 votes

um to get the aa off takes less then a second in fact you should get r q aa all off in less then a second

all while they are stunned for 2.5 seconds (or 1.5 or so for pure tanks) so yeah. idk maybe its just me

Kingsgrave2 votes

Veigar is probably going to get a mini rework.

Stacona2 votes

The thing i would change are his point and clicks to something more difficult and interesting or at least rework his ultimate to something else that doesn't feel like a glorified Q

Fizz is not Fish2 votes

Reduce the mana cost.

Stacona1 votes

doesn't need reduced mana costs, plus that doesn't make any sense to compensate for a DFG removal

4th3t0s2 votes

Do NOT rework him, he's high-risk, high-reward, but he can't carry a game alone. I already said it earlier, he has one, well-defined gimmick, just leave it alone.

Llanite1 votes

If anything should happen, he needs a skill cap raise (and possibly more dmg if pulled perfectly). 1500 dmg on a point-and-click is a joke, the only 'counterplay' is to stay out of range - read: leave him the heck alone. It's boring and dumbdown the game.

Champion Skin2 votes

Well if Veigar uses his Q + R and if he doesn't land his stun you could use item 3157 before they hit you (hey Zhonyas works against Zed ult so he can be strong... hey it also works against Veigar ult so he should get to be strong too... no but seriously.... Veigar is mostly fine)

Llanite2 votes

The thing flies less than 0.3s, has no outstanding particle and often assisted with a stun. Now Zed ult has 3s delay, obvious effect and accompanied with no CC. I don't even see the similarity.

GaleWinUnleashed1 votes

No outstanding particle? Have you seen Final Boss Veigar? That ult is HUGE!

On any other skin his Q and R particles are not hugely different, though. Could use something more to set them apart.

Llanite1 votes

And how many veigar has that $18 skin? 1%? 5%? 10%? The projectile NEEDS to travel slower, something like Nid's javelin is sufficient, or a delay like Fizz/Zed/

4th3t0s1 votes

{quoted}

And how many veigar has that $18 skin? 1%? 5%? 10%? The projectile NEEDS to travel slower, something like Nid's javelin is sufficient, or a delay like Fizz/Zed/

If someone can react to Garen's ult, they can react to that. It's not like him throwing it at you is completely silent.

Llanite1 votes

Sound is not a reliable signal, 70% people I know play other music while playing, unless you enjoy listening to a song 10,000 times.

Stacona1 votes

there isnt counter play to point and clicks being correct - as i said, if they rework any ability it would only be his ultimate

4th3t0s2 votes

{quoted}

there isnt counter play to point and clicks being correct - as i said, if they rework any ability it would only be his ultimate

It's called itemization. By your own words, if point-and-click has no counterplay, how do you justify adc's getting 800 damage crits during lategame? He has a very linear, very defined kit, and it should remain that way. He still suffers from a ton of counterplay, but that's the fun, he only has a very small window each game to become a threat, otherwise he's just an easy target.

Curling Veigar1 votes

eh, either that or the idea of raising the W ratio or base damage, since you need to hit your stun to hit the W anyways, rather than his q and r because they're point and click

Stacona3 votes

he does not need more damage, last thing he needs

MrBuffington1 votes

I'd prefer adding more gameplay to his passive

Stacona1 votes

doesnt need - veigar innately interacts with his opponent whenever he goes to harrass

MrBuffington1 votes

? I meant changing his passive to be more than just a watered down athene's passive

Stacona1 votes

its stronger than chalice - and passive are passives

MrBuffington1 votes

I'm saying his passive doesn't add anything to how you play Veigar. You could literally remove his passive and buff his base mana regen and it basically wouldn't make a difference to how you play him. Compare that to like, Annie's passive, where you have to play around when you have your stun up, it gives you openings to go aggressive or passive, etc

4th3t0s1 votes

K, so perhaps a different, more substantial animation? Keep in mind you're forfeiting a lot of audible cues by listening to music, and that's not a balance issue, that's a personal choice.

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