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If Lee' UIt didn't root in the animation, it would function the same Trist's ult

Eedat··78 votes·3,145 views

In the sense that even if you flash during the animation, it wouldn't change the direction of the skill and you just get shot back toward her team anyway.

This is what the Rioter meant by "wasting your flash"

The problem with these abilities is that they're archaic and the code is dated. My theory (and it's just a theory, maybe Riot can confirm) is that the trajectory is calculated at the time of the cast, instead of after the animation finishes. This is why even if you flash to the opposite side of Trist while she's already in the animation for her ult, you still get launched in the original direction.

This problem is archaic season 1 spaghetti code. It is also evident in champs like Ez. If you hit Ezreal with a bind, stun, root, etc after he starts the animation for his E, he still shifts to his original target, but arrives at his destination rooted.

The only way we're going to fix this is by updating some of the archaic code. Maybe have trajectory be calculated at the end of the animation as opposed to at the intial cast.

Maybe some Rioter could give us some clarification as to how these things are coded, because it seems to be more of a problem on older champion. There's also things like Casseo ult flashes that exist too

51 Comments

RocketRelm30 votes

On the one hand, I see what you're saying.

On the other hand, why can 'lee sin' flash to change direction?

SzGamer2273 votes

{quoted}

On the other hand, why can 'lee sin' flash to change direction?

If you're asking about it from a mechanical/functional perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WS11UesMj8&t=420s

If you're asking about it from a "why is Lee allowed to do this" perspective: I'm not touching that lol sorry

RocketRelm12 votes

If you're asking about it from a "why is Lee allowed to do this" perspective: I'm not touching that lol sorry

But… that's literally the singular and sole point of contention. The entire reason this is even a topic. Lee Sin can do this, and the receiving player can't is why people complain.

The ability either decides the cast direction at the start or at the end. If it works at the start, then lee sin flashing would not change the direction. If it worked at the end, then you flashing would change the direction.

Sraeg20136 votes

Because it's the latter, but the ability specifically counters the ability to use mobility spells durning the cast time.

Which is why it's bullshit.

It's possibly one of two abilities that are tailored to prevent their own counterplay. The other being Galio's ult taunt being immune to CC duration debuffs - Tenacity - despite the fact it should.

But counterplay is bad and we can't have that.

RocketRelm6 votes

I shoulda added a "you can't have it both ways" onto that statement to refer that the uncertainty was from his viewpoint.

Anyway, I actually agree with Galios ult taunt being Tenacity-Immune. That one actually makes sense, because the primary way the ability works would be extremely warped if tenacity affected it. It functions like a weaker Suppression in that sense, and the ability would fall apart without it.

Lee Sin's kick, however, is a fundamentally different case. It has a cast time-applying a CC before that cast time ends. So Lee Sin's kick has no cast time, for most intents and purposes.

Sraeg20131 votes

Tenacity's descriptions specifically states that taunts' durations are reduced too.

That's why they should rename it. Do that and there's no problem, because it's true that Galio's ult is handicapped because of Tenacity.

But no, it wouldn't fall apart. Galio could still cancel the ult sooner to ensure enemies get hit by it, regardless of Tenacity.

RocketRelm1 votes

Cancel the ult earlier for all enemies, for the enemies that have tenacity. Canceling the ult earlier according to the wiki has a smaller radius, so you might not hit all your enemies.

More importantly, it'd cause these stupid games of "precision time exactly when the enemy stops being cc'd because of tenacity", because "just cancel the ult sooner" stops being reasonable once you get to any enemy that has a blink (or burns flash). Also, a tenacity free'd champion can negate your channel with a CC, thus prematurely ending it for all other champions.

It's got enough weirdness cases that actually fixing it up to induce the effects of tenacity somehow would be a huge mess for extremely small benefit, and I'd rather all that effort go into, say, the full Galio rework.

Sraeg20131 votes

Canceling the ult earlier according to the wiki has a smaller radius, so you might not hit all your enemies.

By whole 25 units. That's less than the average hitbox of a champion and 575 range is still higher than the basic attack range of like 95% of champions in the game.

It's got enough weirdness cases that actually fixing it up to induce the effects of tenacity somehow would be a huge mess for extremely small benefit

What the actual fuck?

Galio's ult did not have Tenacity-immunity for 5 years following his release and that didn't stop him from consistently getting 52% winrate.

What I'm immune to is bullshiting me.

Anags1 votes

Galio isn't game breaking OP because his ult isn't effected by tenacity. Sorry but he just isn't. And he's getting a rework shortly anyway so this conversation serves no point at all.

Sraeg20131 votes

Galio isn't game breaking OP because his ult isn't effected by tenacity.

The point is, that his winrate was exactly the same before the change as it is now. So clearly it was not necessary for him to function, like some people imply.

And he's getting a rework shortly anyway

Karma was getting reworked "shortly" for 3 years and so was Warwick. Yorick for like 5.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

when he has to use flash to pull off this combo, is it really that unfair? i mean, there's a lot of 'unfair' flash combos you can pull off in this game to get a strong pick. flash tibbers is a classic, or a flash engage from a support like morgana q/bard q/thresh e. in lee sin's case, he uses his mobility to get to you, then uses R>flash to send you in a specific direction. definitely a powerful engage move, but an engage like that is his main use late game when his damage falls off. and i remember he was basically absent all of season 6 from high elo, because gragas could do something similar with his ult while being overall better. so its safe to assume he really needs that strength to have a strong niche that makes him worth picking.

I think he was just overtuned because the jungle changes made his early game unnecessarily strong. when that evens out, he'll probably be fair.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Because you can still react to a Flash Morg/Bard/Thresh, but the game with legitimately not let you Flash once Lee's R has been started.

Interesting you bring up Gragas, because his R was specifically nerfed to a .55s delay no matter how far he throws it so people could Flash his ER.

Spaceman5pff1 votes

Right, and that is why Lee rose back up in priority over Gragas.

Gragas WAS better, then they nerfed him, and Lee came back up to the top.

They also nerfed his Body Slam CD, which made him less effective at using non traditional gank paths due to the longer delay between jumps, but that is minor in comparison.

EROTIC RAID BOSS3 votes

is it really a problem? if you think back to season 6, lee sin wasn't problematic at all. he was allowed to be flashy without being super unhealthy. i think right now the jungle changes just made him too strong, numbers wise, and its really that simple.

Spaceman5pff2 votes

It is partially that, and partially that Riot nerfed some of the champions that were just overpowering him in the Pro scene.

Gragas comes to mind, as he filled a similar role to Lee of HUGE early pressure into high disruption in teamfights. However, with the Gragas ult nerfs, Lee rises back up.

Lee is one of these champions that (in bronze / low elo) is fueled by youtube highlight reels. Nobody (in low elo) picks lee because he has a high winrate or anything, they pick him because they see highlight reels and wanna do the flashy stuff, because he is fun, but also because he is made cool by high elo / pro players.

In video games, there is the effect where whatever kills you most seems really OP. Makes sense right? You die alot to it because it is really very powerful. However, the fact is that you are only dying alot to it because there is a ton of it happening.

Let's take Call of Duty for an example, Quickscoping specifically. If you aren't familiar with it, it is basically abusing the perfect accuracy of a scoped sniper rifle by aiming the crosshairs at somebody, and starting to aim down the sights, and firing the INSTANT the game decides you are using the scope. Often you will not even actually SEE the scope on the screen yet, or at least only for a split second, but the game counts it as in use and gives you perfect accuracy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iTZb4m5bes

Quickscoping is a SUPER flashy way to play COD, and as a result makes great montages. People see these montages -> try it, and now the game is filled with quickscopers. Now quickscoping seems EXTREMELY OP because you die to it a ton.

In reality, quickscoping isn't that OP, it is just the volume of quickscopers creates this illusion.

Chembaron Yamada23 votes

Sry, but it seems it doesn't work like that. Many people already stated that you can QSS the root, flash in the animation behind Lee Sin and that is changing the direction of the kick. You can test it out yourself with a friend.

The reason why Tristana's R and Vayne's E work like that is probably because they are projectiles. The projectile gets a determined direction it is going to knock you back the moment it gets shot. If you flash away, the direction of the projectile is still set and will push you that way. But Lee Sin's R doesn't work like that, which is the reason why he is able to flash himself to reposition and change the direction of the skill.

50000000000000006 votes

I'm pretty sure Vayne's condemn just pushes you away from Vayne. A lot of Vayne players use E-flash combo iirc.

Eedat3 votes

Well this is why I said it's just a theory and opened the door for Riot to explain how these things work.

I could list of a bunch of questionable interactions from other champs too.

For example, I main Wukong who is also a season 1 champ. His Q is supposed to extend the range of his melee auto attack, however it's pretty much coded as a ranged auto. If you flash away from me while I'm in the animation for Q, you still get hit by it after you flash. Same thing happens if you flash away while Rengar is mid leap.

I know it can be fixed because they fixed Fizz's Q. If you flash away while he's mid animation, you don't take damage

Honestly the game engine is showing its age and maybe it's preventing some of these things from being fixed

Photos of Ghosts12 votes

Uhm no, any and every melee autoattack will go through with every associated effect if the target blinks away.

Sraeg20134 votes

You show times and times again you don't know how the game works.

Fizz's Q is an ability, not a basic attack or a basic attack buff.

Once a basic attack was issued it cannot be dodged by any means, unless stated otherwise. It has nothing to do with it being melee or ranged.

You can't dodge Vayne's Q, you can't dodge Rengar's passive, you't can dodge Nasus' Q and you can't dodge Galio's basic attack.

TehNACHO10 votes

Do you know the Kick-Flash trick?

Start the kick animation in any direction you want, then flash to reposition yourself and cancel the rest of Lee Sin's wind up. It does not matter where you started at if you do this; the direction a champion gets kicked is determined at the end of the wind up (or in the case of Kick-Flash, after Flash).

The question now becomes why is Lee Sin allowed to reposition his ultimate and it's trajectory with flash, but nobody else is allowed to.

notice me Sin pi3 votes

Vayne can do it too

EndlessSorcerer4 votes

I believe they meant "why is nobody else allowed to use flash to reposition where Lee Sin kicks them".

macromite8 votes

lee didn't always have that snare, in ye olde days you could flash past him and it would change the direction of the ult.

The way it works is that it knocks you back a certain distance away from lee sin, which means that if you flash directly away it will still connect and you will fly the same way, but if you flash past him you would end up flying in the opposite direction.

this is probably because it doesn't have a direction until the actual attack is hit, rather than on cast.

Pretty sure lee is also capable of flashing after he begins his ultimate, and this is why it still works

Sraeg20137 votes

The only way we're going to fix this is by updating some of the archaic code. Maybe have trajectory be calculated at the end of the animation as opposed to at the intial cast.

This is EXACTLY how it fucking works.

The direction of the knockback isn't set until the actual knockback starts.

That's why Lee Sin can flash in the middle of animation to change the direction. If it was coded as you think it is, then LEE SIN WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO CHANGE THE DIRECTION WITH FLASH.

You can literally test it by buying QSS, cleansing the root and flashing behind him. With 100% reproduction rate you are going to land in the opposite direction Lee Sin intended to ult you.

xelaker1 votes

{quoted}

This is EXACTLY how it fucking works.

The direction of the knockback isn't set until the actual knockback starts.

That's why Lee Sin can flash in the middle of animation to change the direction. If it was coded as you think it is, then LEE SIN WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO CHANGE THE DIRECTION WITH FLASH.

You can literally test it by buying QSS, cleansing the root and flashing behind him. With 100% reproduction rate you are going to land in the opposite direction Lee Sin intended to ult you.

everyone throws item 3140 in the argument like every champ, lane and role in the game wants to buy it... in that case why don't we just all play Olaf so we can be immune to cc?

Sraeg20138 votes

That's not the point.

I'm not asking OP to buy QSS every game. I'm telling him to get QSS to test how Lee Sin's ult ACTUALLY works.

Hello I am Bird3 votes

I know you're using a hyperbole but for an actual answer 1: We can't play the same champion more than once 2: If all of us played Olaf, who has no hard cc, then we would have no reason to play olaf for his immunity to hard cc. 3: Everyone would build armor and the game would go on forever and nothing would get done

My Gender Varies3 votes

"The only way we're going to fix this is by updating some of the archaic code. Maybe have trajectory be calculated at the end of the animation as opposed to at the intial cast."

Thats how it works.

24 upvotes Lmao. People don't know what they're complaining about.

Sraeg20132 votes

Yeah, it shows that stupid people are attending to the Gameplay Balance section.

OP doesn't know absolute crap about the game, but people cheer for his ideas.

Epicanian2 votes

Lee just got nerfed, you people need to chill.

Sraeg20136 votes

Nerf which solves none of Lee Sin problems.

K den.

Epicanian2 votes

it makes it so he cant just press R and oneshot you now. You actually have to have the skill to be able to kick people into your team. and there's no way we know if it solved anything yet, the patch has been out for one day

MrWasjig1 votes

Okay then just follow up with a double Q. NOW you're dead. Because lel missing HP damage.

Why not add a smoothie maker into Lee's kit somewhere as well? :D

Sraeg20131 votes

That means he has to land one whole basic attack to even the damage lost, which is brain-dead easy with his ult stunning you for a second after the knockback.

rtbf761092711 votes

This problem is archaic season 1 spaghetti code. It is also evident in champs like Ez. If you hit Ezreal with a bind, stun, root, etc after he starts the animation for his E, he still shifts to his original target, but arrives at his destination rooted.

I'm pretty sure this is how ALL dashes work and if they start you will go to your destination with the CC applied when you are there. So it is at least consistent and possibly even on purpose as a design choice

rtbf2256182411 votes

Tbh Lee's ult should be near-instantaneous so the cast and the animations are both super quick so this direction changing + stun bullshit would never happen on any noticeable levels.

Sraeg20131 votes

No, it should either allow both Lee and his victim to reposition or none of them.

rtbf2256182411 votes

It shouldn't allow any movement at all for like 0,1 seconds. It should lock them in place for such a brief time so the person getting hit doesn't get flung away after flashing or other movement related things.

Sraeg20131 votes

Which is why I said "either both or none".

Yrzen1 votes

{quoted}

If you hit Ezreal with a bind, stun, root, etc after he starts the animation for his E, he still shifts to his original target, but arrives at his destination rooted.

Working as intended.

Elikain1 votes

Tristana's ult has a travel time (it's a projectile) while Lee's ult only has a cast time. These two are probably why the coding is different for those two spells.

doiminat0r36001 votes

I would be glad for Riot to spend some of it's client updating resources on updating the actual code of the game and rewriting it from scratch. Especially if the patches were in a proper place where it was mainly balanced with no glaring issues.

Automated Riven1 votes

I can see what your saying except that ever champion with a dash with the exception of yas can do this. I can list them all but several after ezreal have the same ability. even tristana who was recently updated can buffer her rocket jump and it can ignore the cc as it lands. including knockbacks.

InivtesPreeze1 votes

This is a monumental task, honestly. (From a programming perspective.)

It also NEEDS to be done. It's fucking stupid that I can outplay a Lee Sin, and still get hit because of poor code.

Supreme Senpai691 votes

How many times has a Lee Sin flashed to change the direction of his ult on you? Like, not @OP, just @anyone. I agree it's not a healthy mechanic, I've just never had it done to me personally, or seen it happen in my games, and I've been playing over a year. And it should be changed, I'm just asking because the amount of attention this specific subject gets is so overwhelming you'd think it happens every game.

Do people complain about this because they (rightfully so) hate Lee Sin and this is just flat out, by the textbook "unfair?" So they choose this topic and stick to it? Or is it really an actual issue that plagues games?

MrWasjig1 votes

Actually I think Ezreal's Arcane Shift being uninterruptible is deliberate. I could be totally wrong of course but compare it to say, Tristana's Rocket Jump. Similar age but that can be interrupted (yeah dashes and blinks but, just something to think about).

TheTrueQuarian1 votes

Im just tired of a full hp, lvl 3 Lee Sin with both buffs walking into my jungle and doing half of my hp with his Q and then proceeding to be invincible with his W.

Oleandervine1 votes

Their excuse to the only thing that could break the cast of Lee Sin's ult was either his death or the target moving into the fog of war/out of vision. What I'm having the most trouble comprehending is why a target moving out of his melee cast range isn't immediate grounds for shutting off the ability.

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