If garen is as weak as nasus early game, why doesnt he get the same lategame?

Critmaster Garen·Mar 6, 2019·23 votes·5,436 views

this bothered me since the juggernaut update. garen used to be a lane bully, since his spin was a lot stronger at early levels and his silence scaled up to 2.5 seconds.

his early game was nerfed so hard that he loses most matchups right now and its pointless trying to do anything else than passively farm and survive until youre kindof ok by midgame for a short moment, before he falls off like a rock again.

we never received the lategame scaling that we sacrificed our early game for.

62 Comments

DuskDaUmbreonMar 6, 201924 votes

He does get the same lategame - he gets kited to death and does jack shit against anyone who knows how to walk backwards.

Critmaster GarenMar 6, 201915 votes

{quoted}

He does get the same lategame - he gets kited to death and does jack shit against anyone who knows how to walk backwards.

https://imgur.com/gallery/anntO

Moody PMar 6, 201914 votes

we can't go and have juggernauts being viable champs now can we

JackMcSnipeyzMar 6, 20196 votes

Majority of Juggernauts are 50+ winrate

Edit: source Check for yourself instead of blindly downvoting because someone calls you out for BS claims.

Critmaster GarenMar 6, 20199 votes

{quoted}

Majority of Juggernauts are 50+ winrate

i wouldnt call olaf by himself the majority.

who else has 50+ % winrate? yorick after the nerf to his kit and conqueror if hes lucky maybe, and full ap shyvana?

im looking through op.gg and dont see even a single juggernaut except for olaf and yorick at above 50% winrate.

darius is below 50% illoi is below 50% voli has below 50% garen like 47% and like 2% play rate mundo 47% morde literally has so few games played that they dont even have data for him.

i dont see it.

Sir SaltarinMar 6, 201910 votes

darius is below 50%

51% winrate, 9.7% pickrate

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Darius/

illaoi is below 50%

51.2% winrate, 3.8% pickrate

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Illaoi/

voli has below 50%

50.8% winrate, 2.8% pickrate

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Volibear/

garen like 47% and like 2% play rate

50.5% winrate, 4.2% pickrate

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Garen/

mundo 47%

47.1% winrate, 1.2% pickrate

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/DrMundo/

morde literally has so few games played that they dont even have data for him.

51.3% winrate, 1.8% pickrate

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Mordekaiser/

Not saying that Juggernauts are all fine, but cmon, dont exaggerate it.

The thigh guyMar 6, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MZ1BQNNR,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-06T14:20:28.409+0000)

51% winrate, 9.7% pickrate

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Darius/

51.2% winrate, 3.8% pickrate

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Illaoi/

50.8% winrate, 2.8% pickrate

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Volibear/

50.5% winrate, 4.2% pickrate

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Garen/

47.1% winrate, 1.2% pickrate

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/DrMundo/

51.3% winrate, 1.8% pickrate

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Mordekaiser/

Not saying that Juggernauts are all fine, but cmon, dont exaggerate it.

Careful. The hashinshin’s dont Like stats unless they are in favor of their argument.

Moody PMar 6, 20192 votes

These numbers are pretty unimpressive especially in context of their relative simplicity

Sir SaltarinMar 6, 20192 votes

That's why I end the comment with

Not saying that Juggernauts are all fine, but cmon, dont exaggerate it.

JackMcSnipeyzMar 6, 20194 votes

Darius 51% winrate 9% pickrate Garen 50% winrate 4% pickrate Yorick 53% winrate 8.4% pickrate Kled 53% winrate 4.5% pickrate Illaoi 51% winrate 4% pickrate

Source

I know your little oppressed juggernaut gang always think juggernauts are shit, but they really arent.

Critmaster GarenMar 6, 20192 votes

{quoted}

51% winrate 9% pickrate 50% winrate 4% pickrate 53% winrate 8.4% pickrate 53% winrate 4.5% pickrate 51% winrate 4% pickrate

Source

I know your little oppressed juggernaut gang always think juggernauts are shit, but they really arent.

ok, im really interested how those differences appear. regional difference?

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/kr/platinum/plus/champion/Garen/

either way, his pick rate is overall extremely low, and 50% average winrate is also rather low in this case. because it means hes only ever played as a niche pick, or by mains, but still doesnt perform well in those matchups.

"top garens worldwide" we have a 53% average winrate, but that includes also non competitive regions where the average skill level is much lower.

garen is ranked 141 out of 143 champions by lolalytics.

hes literally in the bottom 3 champions.

Sir SaltarinMar 6, 20191 votes

regional difference?

Yes, OPGG only uses KR data while on Lolalytics you can see the overall stats on Worldwide or you can see only a region as you did there using KR only Garen https://lolalytics.com/ranked/kr/platinum/plus/champion/Garen/ instead of Garen Global stats https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Garen/

Critmaster GarenMar 6, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MZ1BQNNR,comment-id=000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-03-06T15:35:33.275+0000)

Yes, OPGG only uses KR data while on Lolalytics you can see the overall stats on Worldwide or you can see only a region as you did there using KR only Garen https://lolalytics.com/ranked/kr/platinum/plus/champion/Garen/ instead of Garen Global stats https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Garen/

i mean. 141/143 champions ranked globally when the champion is mained is still shit.

his winrate looks higher globally i guess because hes currently used as a niche pick and still doesnt do better than average in those cases.

garen needs help right now. im not just asking for straight buffs (though it should end up as a buff), but some serious work.

Hexs FortuneMar 6, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MZ1BQNNR,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-06T12:38:54.098+0000)

i wouldnt call olaf by himself the majority.

who else has 50+ % winrate? yorick after the nerf to his kit and conqueror if hes lucky maybe, and full ap shyvana?

im looking through op.gg and dont see even a single juggernaut except for olaf and yorick at above 50% winrate.

darius is below 50% illoi is below 50% voli has below 50% garen like 47% and like 2% play rate mundo 47% morde literally has so few games played that they dont even have data for him.

i dont see it.

How's Aatrox doing?

Sir SaltarinMar 6, 20191 votes

How's Aatrox doing?

Hexs FortuneMar 6, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MZ1BQNNR,comment-id=00000000000000020000,timestamp=2019-03-06T15:05:41.660+0000)

F

IllabetheMar 6, 20191 votes

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Garen/ 50.77 https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Darius/ 51% https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Illaoi/ 51.36% https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Jax/ 52.6% https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Kled/ 53.46% https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Sion/ 50% Udyr is well over 52%, but not tracked.... https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Volibear/ 50.92%

Critmaster GarenMar 6, 20193 votes

{quoted}

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Garen/ 50.77 https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Darius/ 51% https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Illaoi/ 51.36% https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Jax/ 52.6% https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Kled/ 53.46% https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Sion/ 50% Udyr is well over 52%, but not tracked.... https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Volibear/ 50.92%

jax, kled and sion arent juggernauts. juggernauts are fighters with low mobility, low utlity, high defense and base damage.

look at the play rates too.

low play rate usually means that champions are picked into their most favourable matchups or not at all.

if they still have 50% winrate in these cases, it means theyre too weak.

darius still seems to do relatively well, but illaoi, garen voli are barely even played at all.

Tin ObliteratesMar 6, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Majority of Juggernauts are 50+ winrate

Aatrox I would like a word with you.

JackMcSnipeyzMar 6, 20191 votes

Sorry i forgot aatrox is the majority of the juggernaut roster. He was gutted on purpose, because he was too strong, to a point where gutting him was the only option.

QuephaMar 6, 20191 votes

How is Aatrox a juggernaut and not a diver?

Critmaster GarenMar 6, 20194 votes

{quoted}

How is Aatrox a juggernaut and not a diver?

he doesnt have mobility to dive into the enemy team. he just walks at his target. that mini dash on his e is only there to redirect his q/compensate for being locked in the animation, to give him a chance at hitting/casting the thing while moving closer.

5StackUltOneShotMar 6, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MZ1BQNNR,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-06T12:02:21.417+0000)

we can't go and have juggernauts being viable champs now can we

All hail the overlord Mages

PoskeMar 6, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MZ1BQNNR,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-06T12:02:21.417+0000)

we can't go and have juggernauts being viable champs now can we

I mean the entire class is just an epitomy of no skill anti melee statcheck

Moody PMar 6, 20191 votes

Olaf and Illaoi have some of the highest winrate curves in the game.

Sir SaltarinMar 6, 20191 votes

Where did you get that from?

May I ask

Moody PMar 6, 20191 votes

old post on Illaoi Reddit showing how her winrate improved greatly with experience (top 10 for top lane and top 20 overall) I would have to look for it it's at least a year old

Olaf is apparent just because he doesn't start winning positive until Masters m

Meteora707Mar 6, 20194 votes

he does have the same late game, probably better in face. its just that only 10% of garen players have a clue when it comes to building him apparently. https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Garen/Top/items/ anyone that builds a sheen has a 54% wr at least on him, let that sink in. garen is a triforce champion and his wr is shit because bad people are building bad shit, imagine what nasus wr would be if 90% of his player base was building cleaver.

KelgMar 6, 20192 votes

{quoted}

he does have the same late game, probably better in face. its just that only 10% of garen players have a clue when it comes to building him apparently. https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Garen/Top/items/ anyone that builds a sheen has a 54% wr at least on him, let that sink in. garen is a triforce champion and his wr is shit because bad people are building bad shit, imagine what nasus wr would be if 90% of his player base was building cleaver.

As a M7 Garen, this guy knows what's up. Cleaver is a noob trap.

Critmaster GarenMar 6, 20192 votes

{quoted}

As a M7 Garen, this guy knows what's up. Cleaver is a noob trap.

yes, but garen drops off hard either way. right now were relying on triforce burst during the midgame, which gets less effective towards later stages. but with champions like Irelia Jax in the game who are stronger early and significantly outscale us later on, those stats dont make a lot of sense.

same with Vayne in practically every game.

i dont really trust that data.

Meteora707Mar 6, 20193 votes

how the fuck is jax n irelia stronger early than garen

kingDeDeDariusMar 6, 20192 votes

Irelia is literally never weak. She stomps a lit of early game champs in lane besides champs like Ren.

Sir SaltarinMar 6, 20191 votes

Man I remember when I was a new lvl30 player that I used to love playing Trinity Sunfire Garen a lot.

KelgMar 6, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MZ1BQNNR,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2019-03-06T14:25:23.476+0000)

Man I remember when I was a new lvl30 player that I used to love playing Trinity Sunfire Garen a lot.

https://i.imgur.com/AVUsOro.jpg[]

Sir SaltarinMar 6, 20192 votes

[sg-jinx]

IllabetheMar 6, 20191 votes

He's friggin toxic on Triforce, and laners actually let him snowball with it. I don't know how to deal with a 4 item Garen when I'm a 2 1/2 item support or a 3 item adc.....

Critmaster GarenMar 6, 20194 votes

{quoted}

He's friggin toxic on Triforce, and laners actually let him snowball with it. I don't know how to deal with a 4 item Garen when I'm a 2 1/2 item support or a 3 item adc.....

triforce or not, when a garen is in melee range of an adc, the adc isnt supposed to be able to deal with him at all.

getting into melee range is simultaneously garens win condition and the adc failing his own win condition. its supposed to be the best case scenario for garen and the worst case scenario for the adc at the same time. id be offended to still lose that fight if i was the garen.

thats part of the reason why i hate abilities like tristanas r and vaynes e. it feels like getting cheated. i work my ass off to bypass their kiting, outplay them to get on top of them and then they just press their win button with no way for me to play around it. this means there is never a scenario where i can approach a fight with these champions.

IllabetheMar 6, 20191 votes

Dude. All you need is a item 3800 and you can instantly guarantee a gap close on an adc they cannot get away from.

All you need to ESCAPE one is item 3078 + item 3742

It's not a condition of skills. It's a condition of items.

I can 100% shut down Garen if I am the top laner. If I'm anything else, I maybe have a 35% chance of that. And it's because top laners pick traditional juggernaut vs juggernaut matchups, and let Garen farm away/possibly win lane at 6. If he gets gold (which this gives him) It's usually game over for anyone else.

Critmaster GarenMar 6, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Dude. All you need is a and you can instantly guarantee a gap close on an adc they cannot get away from.

All you need to ESCAPE one is +

It's not a condition of skills. It's a condition of items.

I can 100% shut down Garen if I am the top laner. If I'm anything else, I maybe have a 35% chance of that. And it's because top laners pick traditional juggernaut vs juggernaut matchups, and let Garen farm away/possibly win lane at 6. If he gets gold (which this gives him) It's usually game over for anyone else.

righteous glory and dead mans plate dont negate kiting. you still have to run at your target, and you can still be easily stopped. youre just running slightly faster.

so yea, its still a condition of not neccessarily mechanical skill, but situational awareness.

do your opponents blow the cooldowns of the abilities that could stop you? are they aware you have this item? do they have an unwarded area that you use to flank the enemy team? etc.

IllabetheMar 6, 20192 votes

You're basically trying to argue that every champion has some sort of dash away from a Silence after a massive slow/move speed boost puts Garen right in range.

You cite 2 adcs with long range dash/jumps. Mages? other adcs, etc? Where's the kiting when you both have a move speed boost skill PLUS a 75% move speed item + Triforce Phage proc just from clipping them with your spin? When in combat, Garen is faster than any adc.

You're basically arguing that counterplay is avoidance. And that's just a joke when Garen an destroy turrets, enforce absolute teamplay, and need 4 champ focus just to kill him.

Critmaster GarenMar 6, 20193 votes

{quoted}

You're basically trying to argue that every champion has some sort of dash away from a Silence after a massive slow/move speed boost puts Garen right in range.

every champion has something. be it range, cc or mobility. unless its another juggernaut.

even those who dont can itemise into slows. its actually depressing how easy it is to entirely disable the champion from having an impact on a game.

a single item like item 3116 can effecively remove him from existence. thats not even talking champion counters like enchanters, tanks or mages.

You're basically arguing that counterplay is avoidance. And that's just a joke when Garen an destroy turrets, enforce absolute teamplay, and need 4 champ focus just to kill him.

yea man. he has so many tools to make plays and only very few champions can stop him. thats why hes been shit tier in pro play and in solo que above gold for most of his existence. good one.

the only time he was actually viable for a month or so was last season during a meta where teamcomps were made up of lethality assassins, with barely any cc (jungle, mid and even support). the only conceivable environment that garen could possibly do good in.

the same sources that you guys quoted for his 50% winrate also rank him 141/143 champions currently. you dont think there should be something done about that maybe?

FSRERMar 6, 20193 votes

Cause they did not get enough moneys from god king garen skin, dont you know?

Tychusfindlay918Mar 6, 20192 votes

All the iron and bronze-tier shitter downvotes.

"garen is OP early game man, he gets grasp up and then Qs you for billion damage, and then his passive makes every trade useless"

lulz

Garen needs real scaling or an actual early game. I'm of the opinion that all he really needs is a passive change.

Linna ExcelMar 6, 20192 votes

I'm upvoting even though I don't completely agree with you. I do think it's fine that champs with weak early games need to be good in the mid or late game. I disagree with the nasus like late game because I don't think nasus should have that. I've been asking riot to put in a system where he loses at least 1/4th of his Q stacks on death.

Rathar DashingMar 6, 20191 votes

Buff the AD ratio on his E, then maybe let its armor breaking scale per rank as well from 20-30%

Tychusfindlay918Mar 6, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rathar Dashing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MZ1BQNNR,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-03-06T14:01:51.225+0000)

Buff the AD ratio on his E, then maybe let its armor breaking scale per rank as well from 20-30%

It would make more sense to give E a small AS scale so that tri force becomes a legit purchase on garen.

Rathar DashingMar 6, 20191 votes

I thought about that too, but if they haven't done it by now I didn't think that they'd be inclined to any time soon.

KelgMar 6, 20191 votes

Nasus' late game is nothing stellar tbh

Critmaster GarenMar 6, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Nasus' late game is nothing stellar tbh

no, but his scaling is still a whole lot better than garens despite the fact that both champions have a similar early game.

Tychusfindlay918Mar 6, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MZ1BQNNR,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2019-03-06T14:18:09.617+0000)

no, but his scaling is still a whole lot better than garens despite the fact that both champions have a similar early game.

saying nasus doesn't scale is a fucking meme. There's two types of scaling, teamfight and duel.

In terms of duel, not a single champion in the game can compete with nasus scale.