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@Stashu - Cassiopeia still isn't where she needs to be.

Oleandervine··37 votes·12,394 views

The effort in 4.21 is commendable, but despite these efforts, Cassiopeia is still not what she needs to be thematically and in game play. First of all, while the tweaked passive does technically kick in faster, again, this is an element I do not like nor do many other players of Cassiopeia. Her strength is still locked out until milestones, now governed by time more than anything. In the matches I've played with the new numbers, it still takes more time than necessary to get her to where she needs to be to not be dead weight against champions who can quickly overwhelm her while she is still struggling to bring herself to their level. Regardless of whether or not she's "OP" and an end game melter of faces, this is not the direction that Cassiopeia should have been pushed into. Secondly, the overloading of E is becoming an issue. I'm sure you've heard the KISS acronym before. Keep It Simple, Stashu. E at the moment is excessively overloaded and does entirely too much. As many have mentioned before, we don't like an E centric Cassiopeia kit with her poisons as an afterthought. An amp on E is appreciated, but it doesn't get back to the problems she has - she is a flimsy mage with pitiful range with E, and forcing her into close proximity against almost any other mid retards her effectiveness. With her posions only lasting 2-3 seconds unless the opponent is camping in a Miasma, this amp is ineffective at giving power back to her poisons, and only serves to inflame her mana problems. That leads us to W and R. W is effectively useless, even with the amp. 13 damage amplified by 20% barely breaks 15 damage. Almost all champions can soak it up and ignore Miasma entirely. This is a problem, especially when we have other champions like Teemo, Singed, and Twitch who have more effective poisons than she does, the poison mage. That's just wrong. R has major issues in that there is a cast time. No one else has this weird, uncalled for cast time on a spell like this. Unlike champions like Zyra, who has a projectile multitarget root, Cassiopeia has a point blank stun that is akin to Lissandra's W and shouldn't have a cast time. Why does her looking at someone have a cast time? In so many instances where her R should have saved me, it hasn't, because that uncalled for cast time has given the foe too much time to end me. An ultimate should be an ultimate, not some gappy low rate spell that is easily thwarted; this especially since Cassiopeia has to be point blank to use it. Please fix it. And finally, one other major issue with Cassiopeia is her death animation. On every single skin other than Jade Fang, when she breaks apart, the model reverts back to the old classic model. Fix it. This has been an issue since well before her rework.

As a reccomendation, strip E of all of it's bells and whistles. Return it to it's pre-rework state. Drop her passive, give her ratios back to her Q, W, and R, and give her a new passive. Here's my suggestion: Whenever Cassiopeia kills a poisoned unit, she gains 1% of her max mana. Every fourth spell cast has 10% spell vamp. We simply want Cassiopeia to be a poison mage. As in a mage who's sole purpose is to cast poisons at people. We done like an E focused kit. Please fix her.

122 Comments

5G8Nri0B5424 votes

I'm just going to TL;DR this.

In her entire kit, the most out of character ability for a Poison Mage is her E. You took the rework and made it revovle solely around her E. Do the math.

Thryale4 votes

That's a rather blunt way to go about it, but yeah pretty much what you said.

It always did baffle me why so much focus was put into her emergency side-arm than her main guns.

But yeah, It really does feel like singed and teemo are better poison mages atm as far as cohesive theme is concerned. (that is a bad thing, in case anyone missed that)

Oleandervine17 votes

First of all, Stashu is not all of Riot. Secondly, Cassiopeia has been the definitive poison mage since her creation, not even to mention 90% of her dialogue referencing poisons; If her identity is not that of a poison mage, she is not unique. Just Brand or Ryze 0.5. What is hurting this rework is the community dislike of it. The rework could have been done any number of ways to retain her viability and her identity as a poison mage. Instead, she got shackled with all sorts of mechanics that do not fit on her thematically in the slightest; Only months later does Stashu even explain that he was going for an "embracing the curse" idea with her passive, which, again, isn't thematic from her lore nor her voice overs. She may be better than she was pre-rework, but again, this is subjective. She's horribly gated and too centered on one spell that saps the power out of the rest of her kit. Having that 900 AP that her passive provides very late game only benefits one spell, becuase her other ratios need that 900 to be brought to par with any other mage's level 18 spells. So yes, she may have perks, but overall, she is still painful to play.

xJLx MCHammer6 votes

{quoted} First of all, Stashu is not all of Riot. Secondly, Cassiopeia has been the definitive poison mage since her creation, not even to mention 90% of her dialogue referencing poisons; If her identity is not that of a poison mage, she is not unique. Just Brand or Ryze 0.5. What is hurting this rework is the community dislike of it. The rework could have been done any number of ways to retain her viability and her identity as a poison mage. Instead, she got shackled with all sorts of mechanics that do not fit on her thematically in the slightest; Only months later does Stashu even explain that he was going for an "embracing the curse" idea with her passive, which, again, isn't thematic from her lore nor her voice overs. She may be better than she was pre-rework, but again, this is subjective. She's horribly gated and too centered on one spell that saps the power out of the rest of her kit. Having that 900 AP that her passive provides very late game only benefits one spell, becuase her other ratios need that 900 to be brought to par with any other mage's level 18 spells. So yes, she may have perks, but overall, she is still painful to play.

No idea where you get the idea that she is a poison Mage. Her dmg has always been the highest when using her main dmg ability E.

The community? Actually, it's at most 1-2 dozen players who are vocal. The highest play and diamond Cass players all welcome this rework. They don't agree 100% but it's receieved well enough.

Her q does same dmg is used to now if you actually use Q and E.

I prefer this new Cass. But hey that 55% win rate in diamond is nothing

5G8Nri0B5423 votes

Stashu:

That said, we really want to preserve Cassiopeia's poison identity, and that's part of what inspired the new passive.

Cassiopeia:

"There is no antidote for me." "Poison takes so many forms." various other references to poisoning enemies

Her kit

Cassiopeia hurls poison at the cursor's location, which strikes after a 0.4 second delay. All enemies within the 75-radius area are poisoned, taking magic damage over 3 seconds. Cassiopeia throws a growing cloud of poison to a target location, granting sight of the area and growing from a radius of 125 to 250 over 7 seconds. Enemies in the area are poisoned, Slow icon slowed, and take magic damage per second for 2 seconds. Continual exposure renews the poison.

You:

No idea where you get the idea that she is a poison Mage.

"Durrr she now has a viable win rate! Therefore every single Cass problem is fixed! And poison mage? What in the world made you think she's a poison mage?! She's clearly an E-bot!"

DemiluniS2 votes

Cassiopeia hurls "anything" at the cursor's location, which strikes after a 0.4 second delay. All enemies within the 75-radius area are taking magic damage over 3 seconds.

Cassiopeia throws a growing cloud to a target location, granting sight of the area and growing from a radius of 125 to 250 over 7 seconds. Enemies in the area are slowed, and take magic damage per second for 2 seconds. Continual exposure renews the damage.

FTFY

5G8Nri0B542 votes

I copy and pasted that directly from her tooltip, there's really nothing fixable about it...

DemiluniS2 votes

the fact that you can remove the poison out of it and it reads exactly the same means that you tied more to the fact that it's called poison rather than what it actually does.

5G8Nri0B547 votes

Yes because that makes a for good logic. A champion whose dialogues alludes to Poison. Who Riot continually associates with Poison regardless of how badly they're failing at making her actually a Poison Mage. Whose abilities clearly apply the POISON de-buff. Can be anything really, they really aren't POISONING their opponent...that's just a graphical glitch.

Steel Tempest: Consecutive successful casts of Steel Tempest within 10 seconds form a chain.

First Active: Yasuo thrusts his "ANYTHING" forward, dealing physical damage to all enemies in a 475-unit line.

Second Active: Same as the Steel Tempest.png first active.

Third Active: Yasuo brandishes his "ANYTHING", dealing physical damage and knocking up all enemies in a 475-unit line and unleashing a whirlwind that tears forward an additional 425-units (total 900 range), dealing the same physical damage and Airborne icon knocking all enemies hit in the air. This active resets the chain.

Junkyard Titan

Rumble's basic abilities generate 20 HORMONE when used.

Danger Zone - 50-99 HORMONE: Rumble's basic abilities temporary have enhanced effects.

Overheating - 100 HORMONE: Rumble's spells are disabled for 6 seconds, but his basic attacks deal an additional 20 + (5 × Rumble's level) (+ 25% AP) magic damage over the duration. Rumble's Heat resets to 0 after the effect ends.

Hey Riot! Rework Rumble so he runs off hormones please! It's okay! It's the exact same thing as Heat apparently!

Saevum10 votes

I prefer this new Cass. But hey that 55% win rate in diamond is nothing.

But hey, that -15 downvotes are nothing too!

DemiluniS6 votes

it really isn't since he's posting in a thread of haters for the new cass rework, I mean downvotes means nothing, he's expressing his opion, and you refuse to listen.

Thryale9 votes

I think you are misinterpreting what "listen" means.

I listened to what he had to say quite well. I read each word of his post, internalized it, and thought it over. Then after completing that process I came to my conclusion. That is what "listen" means. Thus the word you are actually looking for is "accept."

Also, my conclusion is that he is wrong and deserves to be down voted.

MadFuhrer4 votes

I also enjoy the new rework. Once the fixed the E bug on her I was playing her non stop. People are just upset that they can't figure out a new playstyle. Did you know that a snake bites it's prey to inject venom?

Thryale7 votes

you do realize that all riot had to do was fix the E bug on cass. She didn't need any other changes or a rework at all.

MadFuhrer1 votes

the E bug i'm talking about isn't the better poison detection, i'm talking about when the rework first rolled out and the e timer was being reset to .7 seconds and not .5 seconds.

Elphrihaim2 votes

{quoted}

the E bug i'm talking about isn't the better poison detection, i'm talking about when the rework first rolled out and the e timer was being reset to .7 seconds and not .5 seconds.

That was intentional by the part of whomever coded it. And it's pretty easy to see why:

Originally, Cassiopeia's E would reset to 0.5 seconds upon damaging a poisoned enemy.

Then, a 0.7 second reset was added upon casting Twin Fang on a poisoned enemy. The original reset was not changed, however, so if the cooldown was above 0.5 seconds it would reset to 0.5 seconds upon damaging a poisoned enemy.

However, Twin Fang has a missile speed. The 0.7 second reset compensates for the missile speed, thus making long-ranged Twin Fangs and short-ranged Twin Fangs have, most of the time, the cooldown they ought to have, but adding a bit of extra reliability should the poison tick away in the transit period of Twin Fang.

The E timer was being reset to 0.7 seconds intentionally because otherwise Cassiopeia's Twin Fang would be getting a large buff.

imho, a much better way to do it would have been to add a flag to the start of the code block--

(Cast Twin Fang) 'A' is now false. Target Poisoned? 'A' is now true.

(Enemy is hit by Twin Fang) 'A' is true? Set cooldown to 0.5 seconds.

Instead of the original

(Enemy is hit by Twin Fang) Target poisoned? Set cooldown to 0.5 seconds.

or the current

(Cast Twin Fang) Target poisoned? Set cooldown to 0.5 seconds. (Originally this was 0.7)

(Enemy is hit by Twin Fang) Target poisoned? Set cooldown to 0.5 seconds.

5G8Nri0B549 votes

Did you know that Cassiopeia isn't using venom at all despite being a snake if you want to use it's strict definition? And that a snake doesn't shoot fangs 5x larger than it's head at a machine gun pace?

And did you know that those E-bug fixes could have come on it's own and not be packaged with all this rework bs?

Narasimha7 votes

Just my two cents, but the idea of a full fledged poison mage is incredibly difficult to balance and implement. By its nature, a poison mage uses its DoTS to do damage while staying safely out of the way. Problem is, this is incredibly frustrating for the opponent. Give her Q too much power, and she can drop it all day with no real risk to herself. And the only thing the opponent can do is hope they have a competent jungler. Make her W too strong, and she can waveclear with incredible power. At the least, the E change forces her to be more interactive with her opponent, forcing her to take risks for her actions. The rework is certainly by no means a great product, but I do believe Stashu is giving it his best shot. On a side note, Cass more of a 'snake mage' than a full on 'poison mage' pre-work. And snakes do come in the venomous and non-venomous varieties.

5G8Nri0B5412 votes

{quoted} Give her Q too much power, and she can drop it all day with no real risk to herself. And the only thing the opponent can do is hope they have a competent jungler. Make her W too strong, and she can waveclear with incredible power.

This...has literally nothing to do with Poison. In fact, being a DoT actually makes it WEAKER in theory because DoT actually has COUNTER-PLAY built in by nature. A powerful long-ranged Q with another ability that lets a champion wave-clear is nothing exclusive to a DoT champion. Not to mention her Q wasn't anywhere near as powerful as most other lane-bullies.

Do you know why she was frustrating before? Because she can harass with her Q and do decent damage...all the while being 100% un-approachable due to how hard she shits on anyone trying to get within range to harass her thanks to her E's raw power. Her E didn't force her to be interactive with the opponent, it forced the opponent to NEVER interact with Cassiopeia.

Do you know what the difference is now? Before the opponent choose not to get within her E-range for the sake of their own well-being, now they choose to stay out of it because they know she is a non-issue unless they specifically walk into that range.

The rework could just as easily have been Q-centric. It could just have easily made both play-styles a viable option so players are presented with a fork in a road.

On a side note, Cass more of a 'snake mage' than a full on 'poison mage' pre-work. And snakes do come in the venomous and non-venomous varieties.

And what exactly is making her into a "snake mage"? that she shoots fangs out at a machine-gun rate?

I'd say Riot has spent the past few years making Cassiopeia LESS of a snake mage what with removing a great deal of snakes in rig....or I it you weren't around during her first VU. She had a lot more snakes going on back then, literally.

I can tell you a bunch of things that proves she is meant to be a Poison Mage though.

RiotRiot Stashu16 votes

We simply want Cassiopeia to be a poison mage. As in a mage who's sole purpose is to cast poisons at people. We don't like an E focused kit. Please fix her.

This is the main point. I'm on board with you, but I really want to call out that: A mage whose sole purpose is to cast poisons at people does not necessarily have to

  • Have a strong early game
  • Be long range
  • Do mostly AoE damage
  • Have short cast times, etc.

Going forward with Cassiopeia, the core goalset includes focusing the kit more on her poisons, but it does not necessarily include making her a long-range-focused or early-game-focused mage.

We've got her to a much more playable state (perhaps even a bit too strong), but there's still more to be done feeling-wise.

This might mean shifting power from her short range ability into her longer range ones, or just making her shorter range ability different and more of a core poison itself, as all of these are viable options in making a poison mage.

I'll definitely be sure to bring the discussion here when we start to get a bit more traction on the paths we're thinking of taking.

Oleandervine9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MW8qR21j,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2014-12-15T22:06:38.607+0000) This is the main point. I'm on board with you, but I really want to call out that: A mage whose sole purpose is to cast poisons at people does not necessarily have to

  • Have a strong early game
  • Be long range
  • Do mostly AoE damage
  • Have short cast times, etc.

Going forward with Cassiopeia, the core goalset includes focusing the kit more on her poisons, but it does not necessarily include making her a long-range-focused or early-game-focused mage.

We've got her to a much more playable state (perhaps even a bit too strong), but there's still more to be done feeling-wise.

This might mean shifting power from her short range ability into her longer range ones, or just making her shorter range ability different and more of a core poison itself, as all of these are viable options in making a poison mage.

I'll definitely be sure to bring the discussion here when we start to get a bit more traction on the paths we're thinking of taking.

All of this would be reasonable except for the fact that your rework of her took the single element of her kit that wasn't poison related (aside from a setup) and turned that into the core focus of her kit. There are already numerous characters with spamable burst. There are next to none that specialize in DOTs. If you had chosen to change her DOTs into single targets rather than AoE, that would have been fine. If those single target poisons were her kit focus and the bulk of her damage output, that would retain her identity as a poison mage. I've never said, nor have others, that she absolutely has to have AoE poisons to retain her identity. The AoE is something that was fun, but the core principle here is that she needs to have a focus on poison. Same holds true for her range, but in that case, if you are giving her a crippled range, she needs beefier compensation and ratio numbers that don't hinge on building pure AP. With her miserable ratios on everything but Twin Fangs, she cannot afford to build anything but AP in order to make her poisons have impact. This is where the AP boosts in her passive cripple her, as their bonus coupled with the AP she is building is the only way to make her damage output viable. If the passive power shackles are dropped, her ratios increased, coupled with single target and short range poisons, this would be ideal for her to build tankier and be more balancing, as she can build better defenses to take advantage of getting in close without having her be entirely destroyed by close range burst.

Tendrian5 votes

This is the main point. I'm on board with you, but I really want to call out that: A mage whose sole purpose is to cast poisons at people does not necessarily have to

  • Have a strong early game
  • Be long range
  • Do mostly AoE damage

I still don't get why the rework isn't centered around reinforcing these things and giving her weaknesses elsewhere, since this were pretty much the high points of old Cass, but oh well...

Either way, the most important thing is to give her kit outside of E any kind of value again. Right now, the only high moment you will ever have on Cass is spamming E. It's literally the only decision you have to make: "can I spam E now?" and it feels horribly dull and watered down compared to her old kit that actually had more upsides, like poke and waveclear, that didn't make you feel utterly useless whenever you are not hammering E. And no, the silly poison amp did nothing to alleviate this - it actually made it worse.

Also, whatever you plan for her, make sure it doesn't involve any kind of stacking. The passive is still not interesting. It's still not fun. It still doesn't fit the character. Just get rid of it.

5G8Nri0B546 votes
Have a strong early game
Be long range
Do mostly AoE damage
Have short cast times, etc.

This is a matter of archetype expression.

While I agree with you that a DoT champion doesn't necessarily have to have all those qualities, however, the archetype of a Poison-centric mage, imo, SHOULD come with a few fantasy fullfilling baggage that people desire from it.

  1. They're often "cowardly" individuals who relies on Poison to achieve what they could not physically achieve without it.

e.g - Fiora's Father...The Nameless Mr. Laurent is a dirty cheat and a coward...he can not possibly win a proper duel.

This is why I (and probably just me) feel that being a super-late game god is ill-fitting of the archetype. I feel that an individual who relies on poison should never have any ultra strong-point as that's too "combative" by nature. Too Vayne-like.

  1. If one's poison is gaseous in nature, having powerful AoE effect IS kind of what you'd want if you're spreading it all over. Think Koffing/Weezing and how that Pokemon fills whatever room he's in with his smoke, yet outside of like, Sludge, he doesn't have much else to look forward to in terms of a 1v1 situation.

As for short cast-times, yeah I agree it has little to nothing to do with poisoning, but rather I think it's a reaction to the fact that her MS boost comes from needing to land a skillshot on an opponent whereas other champions simply have to press a button. I can live with her being as she is with her MS buff being much less free, but probably not as the AP Rambo she currently is where getting up close and personal is her only pattern. But this is getting more on the "balance"-side of things and I'm more concerned with gameplay

As a counterpoint of what many of us want poison to be, yet can totally work. I guess there is the case of a venomous spider. If we have a venomous spider champion, she can be

  • melee
  • single-target damage in nature as her leaps in to sink her fangs into a single target

In short, I guess a DoT-assassin is where a single-target short-ranged poison-champion could work out. HOWEVER, when I look at Cassiopeia filling the air with her poison gas and all her surly lines, I get something completely different from that.

THAT is why I feel Cassiopeia could be more of a long-ranged AoE DoT champion who possesses a Ziggs-like ability to defend herself(read:basically none at all) if engaged upon.

Do you see a difference then? Cassiopeia is a noblewoman, she is represented by an animal normally associated with cowardice and treachery. People see her as spreading a gaseous poison (btw, her Q's CD is longer than it's poison duration...). For someone like that, E offers too much all-inning power whereas it feels like such an archetype should be more focused on staying far away to inflict her vile poison while her henchmen (allied players) keeps the enemy in place. Her E should be the final "dagger in the back" where she sneaks in to deal the killing blow.

PS - yes I know we technically have Elise for my example, but I'm talking about a hypothetical spider whose bites inflicts DoT

Hellioning6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MW8qR21j,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2014-12-15T22:06:38.607+0000) This is the main point. I'm on board with you, but I really want to call out that: A mage whose sole purpose is to cast poisons at people does not necessarily have to

  • Have a strong early game
  • Be long range
  • Do mostly AoE damage
  • Have short cast times, etc.

No...but there's no real reason for a poison mage to not be those things. As is, if you want to change her from a long ranged, AoE spammable lane bully, you're going to need a compelling reason besides 'I felt it would be interesting.'

I played old Cass like a lane bully because I found it fun. If I wanted to play a late game hyper scaler AP champ, I'd play Veigar or Ryze.

RiotRiot Stashu11 votes

I played old Cass like a lane bully because I found it fun. If I wanted to play a late game hyper scaler AP champ, I'd play Veigar or Ryze.

Yeah, and that makes sense to me, but that's a different argument entirely from "she no longer feels like a poison mage," which is what I was addressing here.

Hellioning8 votes

Also true, but I guess those two arguments are completely unrelated.

I'd prefer for any changes made to Cass to push her towards her old lane bully pattern (BTW, I recently played against Syndra. Even at her strongest, Cass was never any worse than Syndra at lane bullying, so I'm not sure why Cass was a problem and Syndra isn't) as well as make her more poisonous, but I haven't put much thought into which one I would prefer if I had to choose only one...so hopefully I don't have to choose!

MrBuffington1 votes

Hopefully someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I've heard some reds say that Cassiopeia was not much else than a lane bully; her late game was pretty weak, so it isn't so much of her lane bullying being problematic so much as she had trouble scaling into late game, unlike Syndra who still has her long range, utility, and crap tons of damage. I think maybe the changes were initially supposed to make Cassiopeia strong in the late game, and then the idea occurred to make her incredibly strong late game, and thus her early game was butchered to try to balance this.

I could be way off, but sort of trying to fill in the gaps of my understanding with a story :3.

Hellioning5 votes

I haven't heard that, but it's believable. Her late game was weak because she was squishy and prone to getting bursted down, with only conditional hard CC and a minor slow. She still had a fair amount of damage, but couldn't apply it in most situations. So I could buy that's what Riot, Stashu specifically, was planning, considering their love of fallback mechanics for newer champions/updates.

I'm just not sure why they decided to completely reverse her power curve.

MrBuffington2 votes

Yea, I think my story would have made sense if they just kept her laning phase more or less untouched (minor compensatory nerfs?) and just gave her more tools to apply her damage late game; I might be getting too carried away here but it's possible that they reversed her powercurve to try to balance her?

I'm just speculating here:

When I first played Cassiopeia (like a year ago, before all the reworks), I didn't understand her at all and actually thought she was supposed to be a hypercarry sort of mage with the way her E resets worked. Trying to put myself in Stashu's shoes; it's possible he saw the potential for improving her late game by revolving around the E reset mechanics, so decided to focus on that. With a lot of recent designs, Reds seem to be trying to push what's possible in the game, so it's possible that Stashu really wanted to push this late-game direction of Cassiopeia since he saw a lot of potential in this direction, thus the passive was born. When he took a step back, however, he saw that her kit was pretty stacked at this point, and had to nerf everything to try to keep her balanced (undershooting as is typical of releases these days because it's probably healthier for the game to have underpowered champions steadily buffed rather than some broken champion released and everyone panics).

Again, all just speculation, but if this is remotely true, perhaps it would be best to look towards something like making Cassiopeia scale less aggresively into late game, keeping some buffs to her laning, but giving her more late-game utility, like Syndra or Orianna have?

Hellioning2 votes

Possible. I know that most of her kit was nerfed in order to compensate for her passive, just looking at the numbers for the base damage and ap ratio on her abilities says that much. But I don't feel like they were just looking for giving her tools to apply her damage. The only 'tool' she got was the healing on her E, the rest was simply number changes (lower ap ratios to compensate for the higher amount of AP she's getting).

Again, all just speculation, but if this is remotely true, perhaps it would be best to look towards something like making Cassiopeia scale less aggresively into late game, keeping some buffs to her laning, but giving her more late-game utility, like Syndra or Orianna have?

I'd be down for that concept. Personally, I'd start by removing the cast time and/or the facing requirements on her ult. It does not need both, and I'm not even sure it needs either.

MrBuffington3 votes

I'd be down for that concept. Personally, I'd start by removing the cast time and/or the facing requirements on her ult. It does not need both, and I'm not even sure it needs either.

I think it'd be kind of cool to get, instead of a slow if the enemy is facing the other way, a fear. That way she at least gets some consistent hard-CC with her ult, and I feel like it fits thematically (I'd be terrified if I heard her scream behind me). This also gives her a bit more of an opening to get her damage down without worrying as much about the enemy just turning around and blowing her up.

5G8Nri0B545 votes

I think the main issue here is that Cassiopeia's rework changed multiple aspects of Cassiopeia that made many players uncomfortable, some for just a single reason and others...for multiple reasons. And then there are those who dislike it for one reason, but think they dislike it for multiple reasons because a single changed thing screws with the other things as well.

Even at her strongest, Cass was never any worse than Syndra at lane bullying

How can you ever have Cass at her strongest? Either your team, or the enemy team already surrendered the second you reach 500 stacks...

It's been like that for the majority of my Cass games. I do well, enemy team surrenders. Do not so well, your team surrenders even if you vote "NO" yourself. Ironically I've ever become "Goddessiopeia" in a Dominion game...the least likely map to reach 500 stacks.

Hellioning2 votes

I meant old, pre-rework Cass by that. Even when Cass was at her strongest, as in hasn't been nerfed, her lane bullying paled in comparison to what Syndra can do, and Syndra also has more hard CC, better burst, and the ability to cast while moving.

I was not complaining about current Cass, I've said all of that before.

5G8Nri0B543 votes

Wait, pre-pre-rework as in the one I like?

Or the pre-rework as in the one before 4.21 but after she was torn apart? Yeah I can see that, there's something obnoxious about having such a reliably long-ranged stun and a point-and-click nuke that does so much damage.

In the end I'm much more concerned about Cassiopeia's playstyle though. Going Rambo with Cassiopeia is the opposite of what she should be.

Cuix3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MW8qR21j,comment-id=000b00030000,timestamp=2014-12-15T23:07:55.387+0000) Yeah, and that makes sense to me, but that's a different argument entirely from "she no longer feels like a poison mage," which is what I was addressing here.

Why does she even still have her E or her ult? Like, where do they actually fit in and why are they necessary? You so far have proved unwilling to make actually big changes after that initial alteration, and I don't understand why.

Tendrian7 votes

Yeah, and that makes sense to me, but that's a different argument entirely from "she no longer feels like a poison mage," which is what I was addressing here.

She doesn't need significant AoE or a strong early to feel like a poison mage, sure.

She does need it to feel like Cass though.

Mandaari2 votes

I get the feeling that this is going to get downvoted into oblivion, but I want to make sure this is said:

Do not assume people who say "we don't like E centric kit at all" or "Cassy just feels like Veigar or Ryze" speak for everyone. I love her E centric kit. I just don't like when all of her power is in her E. To the people that say she shouldn't be a late game scaling champion becuase Ryze and Veigar already are, so what? Veigar is pure burst. Ryze is a lot tankier. Cassy isn't like either one of them. She actually needs to kite like a real APC should, which I absolute love. She's pretty much the only champion that plays like an AP ADC aside from Azir. And even so, they're very different. It's like comparing Vayne to Trist and saying that they're too similar because they both have a strong AD late game. Yeah, they do, but their kits don't feel the same at all.

Elphrihaim1 votes

{quoted} She's pretty much the only champion that plays like an AP ADC aside from Azir. And even so, they're very different.

Well, no, Azir is the only AP Caster AA-Carry.

Kayle is also an AP AA-Carry.

But Cassiopeia is an AP Caster that can carry that has spammable moves. I wouldn't equate that to 'being an AP ADC' at all.

Mandaari1 votes

I didn't mean AA-Carry. I actually like Cassy because she's not designed around sustained damage through auto attacks.

Elphrihaim1 votes

{quoted}

I didn't mean AA-Carry. I actually like Cassy because she's not designed around sustained damage through auto attacks.

You did write "AP ADC" and I expanded the term:

An ADC is somebody that specializes in basic attacks. And AP means only that they build AP.

Cassiopeia is an AP Carry--As a carry is somebody with good item scaling--but is actually a hyper-carry--as she needs more than just gold but is much stronger than others--and she has a lot of damage at her disposal.

I agree with you, Cassiopeia is super fun, but I disagree that the spammability of a single target attack is what makes her fun (it increases her skill cap a lot though, and mechanically complicated things are fun to pull off-- so spamming an enemy to death with E feels nice because it's hard to me, but I have more fun whittling enemies down with other abilities).

Though one thing that Cassiopeia lacks (which I think is part of why her passive directly increases her AP) is turret damage. She's never going to grab Attack Speed, so she's relying entirely on her Ability Power stat to give her pushing power-- most ADCs are capable of clearing a wave in just a few seconds (curse you less-than sign for being broken), while Cassiopeia does take about the same amount of time, she has to expend mana to do so (and will not always be able to recover it all via Twin Fang).

Mandaari3 votes

Turret damage is a problem with virtually all AP champs. Lich bane helps a lot, but it's not a great pick for everyone. But yes, that's something Riot needs to address if they ever want to practically make ADCs non-mandatory. That's a different discussion though.

I've always defined a true APC an an AP champion with traditional ADC-like consistent damage output, the "carry" part referring to sustained damage output.

Sir Tiddles5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MW8qR21j,comment-id=000b00030000,timestamp=2014-12-15T23:07:55.387+0000)

Yeah, and that makes sense to me, but that's a different argument entirely from "she no longer feels like a poison mage," which is what I was addressing here.

Why don't you address the primary concern most longtime Cass players have with the rework, in that literally all of her strengths and weaknesses were inverted? The poison theme is definitely part of why I loved the feel of playing Cass, but it was by no means all of it. Personally I'd be willing to trade some of her old early game power for some later game power, but never at the expense of her strong AoE damage -- Q and W are just too meaningless without E.

While we are on the topic of "feels", I still really absolutely hate the CDR in the passive (I hate the entire idea of stacks on Cass to unshackle her as well) at the expense of increasing base cooldowns of her poison spells. While it might alleviate the primary concerns you had in the rework, which seems to be curbstomp her early game, it makes her kit feel super awkward when she can no longer permanently keep an enemy poisoned... as the primary poison champ in the game. This makes her E feel janky until you get max stacks and can keep an enemy permanently poisoned again.

Solumindra2 votes

I would like to add that I absolutely hate the new gates. It's taking much longer for me to reach full stacks because there is no benefit when I fight in lane. Absolutely none. Bring back getting a stack when you hit an enemy with Twin Fang. Please. This recent update has been a nerf to my stack breakpoints going from ~27-28, to ~35+. It really makes me want to stop playing this champion, games end before I can even do anything. And this isn't fun. I would also suggest adding poison to her ult if you want to bring back some poison to the poison mage. As is amplifying Miasma is a joke......

She is also nowhere near "too strong" Any amount of CC gets her destroyed, If anything Go rework Morgana. She has a Century long stun, an AOE that does more damage than ours, and a better ult.

Cuix3 votes

7 months.

Stez0076 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MW8qR21j,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2014-12-15T22:06:38.607+0000)

This is the main point. I'm on board with you, but I really want to call out that: A mage whose sole purpose is to cast poisons at people does not necessarily have to

  • Have a strong early game
  • Be long range
  • Do mostly AoE damage
  • Have short cast times, etc.

Going forward with Cassiopeia, the core goalset includes focusing the kit more on her poisons, but it does not necessarily include making her a long-range-focused or early-game-focused mage.

I disagree. A DoT character needs to be at least one of three things in order to be effective and not useless:

--Hyper mobile (Teemo) so the character can duck in and out of combat to trade effectively --Super tanky (Singed) so the character can survive long enough for his/her poisons to deal enough damage --Extra-long ranged (Cassiopeia) so the character can stay out of reach of retaliation that would kill him/her

The character does not need to be all three of these, and in fact is most balanced and effective when he/she is crippled in one of the other departments (Singed's range is nonexistant, Teemo's tankiness is nonexistant, Cass's tankiness is nonexistant) but that must be coupled with one of the above extremes.

What would Singed be like if he wasn't super tanky? What would Teemo be like if he wasn't super mobile? That's what you've done to Cass by making her so E-focused. You've taken away her primary asset and have not compensated by removing her greatest weakness. That is why she feels like shit to play, even if she's actually strong: being a close-ranged mage does not fit with being a super-squishy DoT character. It wouldn't feel right even if E one-shot tanks. Power is irrelevant here, she feels like shit because her current design is shit.

Tik1154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Stashu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MW8qR21j,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2014-12-15T22:06:38.607+0000)

This is the main point. I'm on board with you, but I really want to call out that: A mage whose sole purpose is to cast poisons at people does not necessarily have to

  • Have a strong early game
  • Be long range
  • Do mostly AoE damage
  • Have short cast times, etc.

Going forward with Cassiopeia, the core goalset includes focusing the kit more on her poisons, but it does not necessarily include making her a long-range-focused or early-game-focused mage.

We've got her to a much more playable state (perhaps even a bit too strong), but there's still more to be done feeling-wise.

This might mean shifting power from her short range ability into her longer range ones, or just making her shorter range ability different and more of a core poison itself, as all of these are viable options in making a poison mage.

I'll definitely be sure to bring the discussion here when we start to get a bit more traction on the paths we're thinking of taking.

Mayhaps could I suggest something?

Why don't you remove 20% of the E's AP scaling and split it between the Q and W? (as in increase the Q + W AP ratios by 10% each)

I mean looking at Cass she just lacks that feel of a poison mage, its not about if you want her to be a hypercarry (No offense but I think that mindset that she HAS to be a hypercarry is a little dumb) its about making her poision, y'know the most defining aspect of her pre-rework feel like it has an impact, which unfortunately (and this is from a guy looking in saying this) it doesn't, her posion right now feels like a Nidalee or Caitlynn trap, yeah sure you see it but its not threatening in any way and I think thats a big problem

Audiomancy14 votes

this is incredibly frustrating for the opponent

Yes, I agree. Being bursted down from 100-0 with no chance to react is so much better than your HP slowly dropping over time after failing to dodge a skillshot. Syndra Leblanc Annie Veigar Fizz Diana Brand Malzahar Lissandra Zed Yasuo Talon TwistedFate Jax Akali Fiora Oh, wait.

chumbler11 votes

{quoted} Yes, I agree. Being bursted down from 100-0 with no chance to react is so much better than your HP slowly dropping over time after failing to dodge a skillshot. Syndra Leblanc Annie Veigar Fizz Diana Brand Malzahar Lissandra Zed Yasuo Talon TwistedFate Jax Akali Fiora Oh, wait.

But you see, they are flashier and more #LCSBIGPLAYS than Cassiopeia's dots. Also Lissandra doesn't really belong in that list any more because they nerfed the fuck out of her burst.

yellowbricks14 votes

I love how damage over time is this fucking arcane concept that no one understands anymore. Are we really balancing this game around people with less brain cells than darksydephil? What goes through these people's heads?

"Oh my fucking God she hits me with one spell and it hits me a thousand times, what am I supposed to do against that HUHUHUHU"

I really think people are just being willfully obtuse just to make this shit rework sound acceptable. Either that or the koolaid riot gave them induced amnesia. There's no way people can be this stupid.

yellowbricks11 votes

The only ones hurting this rework are the sycophants who just regurgitate the same buzzword loaded pr posts stashu barfs out every few days in response to legit complaints about the horrid direction of this rework. You guys are the ones giving stashu an undeserved ego trip, making him think his horrible attempt at reworking this champ is any good at all.

Oh whoop-de-shit, a 55% win rate in diamond! Who cares about good champ design, whatever wins the game, right? Funny thing is, since Cass isn't in the elite cool kids club of LCS big plays, she's going to get dumped on hard by nerfs for this, so enjoy your unfun stacking game while you can.

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