Why Marksmen feel weak

Jbels·Jan 20, 2017·34 votes·2,584 views

I know a lot of people say that marksmen feel weak because of itemization, but I just don't see it. Any way you shake it, ADCs are hitting their appropriate powerspikes, and doing damage accordingly when allowed to.

There's the caveat though. "When allowed to". Marksmen are intended to be a frail DPS class that can survive as long as their tank is able to stand in front of them and soak the damage that would kill them. Here's the problem. The front line is completely irrelevant. Vi completely ignores it, Nocturne completely ignores it, and in most cases, an ADC has to get too close to threats to do their damage.

This is a huge balance issue. Before looking at buffing Marksmen and Lethality, I would seriously implore you to consider that ADC weakness is a product of environment, not lack of damage.

76 Comments

Hexs FortuneJan 20, 20177 votes

Problem is bot laning phase being disrupted so much by other lanes and jg

ZephyrDrakeJan 20, 20173 votes

and yet Ziggs has the 2nd highest winrate in the ADC role. Lethality is not being changed just because of ADCs. Assassins don't want to look at lethality items, other than ghostblade most assassins don't even bother looking at lethality items due to how terrible lethality itself feels. ADCs like Lucian were essentially murdered by the removal of flat armor pen so those type of ADCs needed the buffs. ADCs are essentially unable to do anything at all other than hope that the jungler comes and camps the heck out of their opposition and get turret, kills and dragon just like that putting them at a huge advantage (or disadvantage when it's the enemy that does it to them). Let's not even start with supports in this meta either.

ADCs right now are just too easy of a target for everyone on the enemy team to the point that unless they get stupidly ahead due to jungler shenanigans early they really don't do anything the entire game

khorneyJan 20, 20171 votes

1 ziggs is not a adc, ziggs is a apc that tends to go bot.

ZephyrDrakeJan 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

1 ziggs is not a adc, ziggs is a apc that tends to go bot.

he has the 2nd highest winrate of all ADCs, sorry but if he goes bot lane it doesn't matter if he builds AP or AD he is still considered an ADC by any site out there that tracks where he is. So yeah, my point still stands

khorneyJan 20, 20171 votes

what does the term adc stands for? what does the term apc stands for?

Ariel the CruelJan 20, 20172 votes

"ADC" used to stand for "Attack Damage Carry." Then Azir happened. Then Mord rework happened. Then "Marksman" became a term.

So... crap shoot? ;p

khorneyJan 20, 20171 votes

so pray tell has a ziggs ever built ad ?

OdinakosJan 20, 20171 votes

I think we all understand that it clearly ment "bottom role" as it was always called adc. No reason to nitpick.

khorneyJan 20, 20171 votes

i am nit picking becuase adc is ranged champs who build AD. seeign ive neevr seen ziggs build ad it isnt my issue that you

OdinakosJan 21, 20171 votes

Tomato is a fruit yet in everyday language it will be thrown into vegies. Do you go and nitpick every store you go and see tomatoes with the vegies instead of fruits? No.

Ziggs is the tomato of bot lane. We all know he builds ap but in everyday lingo we call him adc. Its not technically correct but clearly communicates the message.

khorneyJan 21, 20171 votes

being correct is being correct its not my issue that what im saying is correct and what you are is not. Plus its not what you were saying that just becuase your bot does not make you a adc? what do you call a vayne top or quinn top then?

OdinakosJan 21, 20171 votes

Well to be technical correct both Vayne and Quinn are not adcs but Marksmen. See how annoying it is? (Vayne top and Quinn top btw).

Just answer me. Do you really go and correct people refering tomatoes as veggies? Have you gone to a store owner and complained about the placement of tomatoes? Because its is an extremely close, simple, clear, everyday analogy to Ziggs adc.

Ariel the CruelJan 21, 20171 votes

Has Azir or Mord? Both of them have been played "ADC". At one point, Riot even referred to them as ADC's. Hell, Mord even had it as a tag (to make searching him easier after rework).

In this context, "ADC" is simply referring to "An objective siege role played from the bot lane with a support."

You're basically making the "support - "support" - Support" argument when it's not entirely relevant.

ZephyrDrakeJan 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

what does the term adc stands for? what does the term apc stands for?

where is Ziggs being played? how are the sites actually regarding him? how is his winrate among those who go to the same position as he does? he is an ADC for all intends and purposes even if he builds nothing but AP. If he goes bot every single site will treat him going bot as an ADC and guess what? he has the 2nd highest winrate and a decent playrate among any of the ADCs that go bot

SEKAIJan 20, 20172 votes

Peeling is a thing in this game.

JbelsJan 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Peeling is a thing in this game.

It is, but in most cases, Vi and Nocturne have multiple ways to get back on to/ stay on the adc. Not to mention the frustration of dying because "My team didn't react fast enough to peel"

SEKAIJan 20, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Koichi Pose,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MUk82bNH,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-01-20T04:15:23.648+0000)

It is, but in most cases, Vi and Nocturne have multiple ways to get back on to/ stay on the adc. Not to mention the frustration of dying because "My team didn't react fast enough to peel"

This game is balanced mostly under the assumption that players can easily communicate with each other like they're just sitting by each other or something, same goes for the level of peeling allowed (if they don't do that organised play would be a disaster). Most of these frustration is induced by the handicap of solo queue, where there is a fundamental communication barrier and its resultant lag in team-scale responses, instead of divers being too sticky on their own.

VincratosJan 21, 20171 votes

Probably the best thing I've read all day. Ekko

xelakerJan 20, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Peeling is a thing in this game.

Hecarim Malphite Shyvana Zac try and peel these without the whole team having to turn around and collapse...

there's even anti peel champs... Poppy you cant peel from base, R.

RavenMagusJan 20, 20172 votes

If you don't specifically have Poppy on your team, then a lot of divers (and even some tanks) are nearly impossible to peel.

Of course, Locket is definitely a thing too.

igoproJan 20, 20172 votes

Honestly I dont understand why theres still no AD hourglass equivalent? can someone education me the reason behind this?

Ariel the CruelJan 20, 201712 votes

item 3139

Riot addressed this a while back. They want itemization characteristics to be different between types. For example: AP is characterized by getting a lot of health for their defense and reaching really high values late game, while AD gets resists and crit, tanks get health+resists and supplemental damage boosts (Such as Sunfire, Deadman's, and thorn), and supports get sustain + strong team effects. That's why AD doesn't get stasis.

And before "that guy" shows up, this post is not about the current state of itemization.

Hello I am BirdJan 20, 20172 votes

Woah Ariel you're not allowed to get upvotes? What happened? ######Mods this is a joke. I don't like the fact that I have to say this but I've had a bit too many of my posts deleted because of this

Ariel the CruelJan 20, 20171 votes

Probably a roaming band of "that guys." XD

khorneyJan 20, 20171 votes

You can get hourglass on certain adcs that have a ap scaling. Varus ez, mf, kog for example instead of getting GA

Ariel the CruelJan 20, 20173 votes

Ok . . ?

khorneyJan 20, 20171 votes

its remarking the merc scimitar, also as i said getting hourlgass on certain adcs does work, lose nothing but gaining damage

Glory ln DeathJan 20, 20173 votes

Hourglass: You gain 17.5 damage per auto and about 1.3% max health per Blight stack that gets popped, or 13 bonus damage per 1000 max health of your target and 70 damage on your ult. If you get 3 autos and then pop the Blight stacks with Q and ult, you will deal 52.5 (autos) + 3.9% max health (Blight) + 70 (ult) extra damage because of Hourglass. For a 2000 health target, that's 200.5 bonus damage over 3 autos and a Q and ult. For a 4000 health target, it deals 278.5 bonus damage.

Mercurial: You gain 65 damage per auto, plus 65 - 104 damage on Q (depending on how long you charge it). With 3 autos and an uncharged Q and ult, you will deal 260 bonus damage.

Mercurial gives you much more bonus damage than Hourglass except against high health targets, and is easier to apply, since you don't have to rely on popping Blight (what if you die or they escape before you can pop it?), and you aren't relying on your ult for a large part of your damage (long cooldown). Without ult, Mercurial will give you 2x the bonus damage of Hourglass.

Not to mention the extra damage if you charge Q and the AD ratio on E.

So, taking Hourglass over Mercurial means you lose a large amount of damage and lifesteal, and only gain some cdr and the Hourglass active. Seems like Mercurial is the better choice.

khorneyJan 20, 20171 votes

so your willign to die then for a little extra damage? seeing merc scimitar will do nothign agasint zed lb talon rengar shyt mostly any assassin

Ariel the CruelJan 20, 20171 votes

Hourglass isn't as generically strong as people make it out to be. It screws up Zed pretty hard due to his ult delay. Any other assassin will just insta-gib him as soon as stasis ends. He also has no effects that persist purposefully during stasis (such as morg/fiddle ult). Nor are his abilities face-roll enough that 2.5 seconds of cooldown time will make any difference. So the bonus MS+cleanse and life steal are generically more useful.

That having been said. Some ADC's have effective AP builds that would favor hourglass for the AP. And for those, it is perfectly valid.

And all of this is off-topic. My original point was that AD doesn't get hourglass for the same reason AP doesn't get Mercurial.

khorneyJan 20, 20171 votes

i get it on varus and gettign it instead of GA is a plus.

AceGeoJan 21, 20171 votes

You're too young. There really should be an age restriction on constructive arguments.

Glory ln DeathJan 20, 20172 votes

Your argument had nothing to do with survival. I was disproving your claim that Hourglass would increase your damage without you losing anything.

Also, all of the scenarios you mentioned are very situational, and Hourglass won't save you either, unless the assassin is terrible and decided to jump you in the middle of your team. Hourglass will just delay the inevitable.

khorneyJan 20, 20171 votes

it does since i get it instead of GA 90% of the time. it does increase my damage and increase my survival over what a cleanse move? take no damage or take damage

Glory ln DeathJan 20, 20171 votes

Ok, but this was a Hourglass vs Mercurial topic, not Hourglass vs GA.

And, no, Hourglass does not both increase your damage and survivability. Compared to GA, it increases damage, but not survivability. Compared to Mercurial, it increases survivability in some situations, but does not increase damage.

In most scenarios, Hourglass is a bad survivability option on Varus. It works for mages because it prevents damage and allows them to wait out cooldowns for their high damage and/or high CC abilities. Once the stasis wears off, they can fight back against enemies who tried to surround them. Varus can't do that effectively. He's better of with Mercurial or Maw, since he can continue auto attacking and lifesteal ing through the defensive effects.

With Hourglass, you stop and become useless for 2.5 seconds, and find out that the enemy surrounded you during your stasis. With Mercurial or Maw, you are still able to fight and run during the defensive effects.

khorneyJan 21, 20171 votes

and the 2 items you had named will do nothing agasint talon zed rengar you get my point

Glory ln DeathJan 21, 20171 votes

And Hourglass will do nothing against Talon, Zed, or Rengar except delay your death by 2.5 seconds. You have no CC or strong, instant damage abilities to use when you come out of stasis. It would be better for you to be able to keep moving and attacking them to at least take them with you and potentially get some lifesteal and possibly survive.

And, with Rengar, Mercurial allows you to cleanse his root.

VincratosJan 21, 20171 votes

The same reason there is no item 3156 AP equivalent. Ekko

Daddy AntsJan 20, 20172 votes

The main reasons ADC's feel weak in my opinion are;

Junglers are way too strong at the moment, sustain in the jungle and sustain on certain champs (Lee Sin for example) is too strong. Gives them more ganking capabilities.
ADC's take way too long to become relevant in a game items wise.
Courage of the Colossus is too strong.
Certain Tanks and divers are too strong (Vi, Hecarim and Poppy come to mind)

khorneyJan 20, 20171 votes

umm for starteres varus is weak as fck i can give you several reasons? why was he the only adc to get nerfed at marksmen update? ohh yes lower base damage on ult by 200 but we will seemingle give him a buff that isnt one. Became weaker after they nerfed fervor from on hit to this stupid crap, B. became weaker and or made caster build useless due to lethality changes and certain items that contained it. Ohh them they "buff" him if you call it that which was pointless becuase it did nothing for him. So yes i will say varus is weak

LankPantsJan 20, 201717 votes

umm for starteres varus is weak as fck i can give you several reasons? why was he the only adc to get nerfed at marksmen update?

Varus has been the number one carry in pro play so far. He also currently has a positive winrate on every server according to op.gg. You want to explain to me how he's "weak".

khorneyJan 20, 20171 votes

i just did and wrote a article as to how he is weak. and op,gg is plat 1 and above so its what we call false survey

LankPantsJan 20, 20177 votes

The game is balanced around Plat+, so no, it's a fine sample.

Quite frankly I don't give a fuck about low silver/bronze balance, it's utterly irrelevant.

khorneyJan 20, 20171 votes

umm its not but okay. also i wrote why he is weak ive been playing him since season 3 so yes he is weak

LankPantsJan 20, 20172 votes

I've been playing Irelia since season 2, she must be utter garbage /s.

khorneyJan 20, 20171 votes

ive given you several reasons why varus is not strong as he used to be and you have given me 0 reason that he is fine? why nerf his utl damage but give him a false buff? as i said i have given you several reasons as to why he is not stong and you have given me 0 reasons that he is fine

LankPantsJan 20, 20174 votes

None of the justifications you gave for him are at all valid. It's completely possible for a champion to be nerfed and still be too powerful or be buffed and still be too weak.

I gave you reasons why he's fine. He is the number one competitive ADC currently. Watching the LCK I see Varuse almost every game. That alone is enough to dispel him being weak. Additionally almost every statistics site I can fine has Varus's winrate converging around 51-52%, not a perfect indicator but far better than 'I think he's weak' which is your argument in a nutshell.

NodirjonSattarovJan 20, 20172 votes

pro play and solo q are two different ways that the game is played. I hate people like you that say "x champion is played in LCS so clearly must be strong"

LankPantsJan 20, 20178 votes

If a champion is being played in pro play they aren't weak. Pro play is a relevant indicator of strength.

Spaceman5pffJan 20, 20172 votes

Not always true.

It seems this way, but only because the soloQ meta is trickle-down modeled after the pro meta. Some champions are great in SoloQ, but see little to no time in competitive. Draven is an example of this. Blitzcrank is another. Fiddle has always been stronger in Solo than organized, due to poorly organized vision control.

Conversely, Rek'Sai is far better in Pro play than SoloQ since most of her power lies in utility, not damage. Azir stayed professionally relevant long after being terrible in SoloQ.

Sometimes Pro play is a good indicator, but often it has little bearing, as champions are rarely valuable to Solo and Pro play in the same ways.