We're supposed to have a ranked ladder, not a ranked slide.

WoonStruck·Nov 10, 2019·19 votes·11,012 views

Why does the ladder not start in iron, and you are able to climb up to the top of challenger like a real ladder, rather than starting high silver/low gold and sliding down one side of the bell curve toward either high or low elo?

There's currently 1 game recorded in iron on Yasuo GLOBALLY. All 4 divisions.

Why do we have this tier again if absolutely NOBODY is in it?

Edit: Apparently the API for Riot's 'endorsed' statistics site, U.GG, does not collect significant data from Iron tier games.

The only excuse for not changing how our "ladder" works is padding out the majority of the player base's time investment working toward gold, since everybody 'has it in their sights' even if some can't reach it. Because the more you play the game, the more likely you are to buy a skin.

85 Comments

FOR JUSTICENov 10, 20198 votes

because thats not how the MMR system of ranked works. you start at the 50% baseline because naturally the majority of players dont deviate too far from it.

also because if you started at the bottom, climbing would be impossible.

WoonStruckNov 10, 201910 votes

If you started at the bottom climbing would not be impossible.

You'd actually play with worse players, and climb because you are the only consistent factor among your games. The more you win consistently, the faster your MMR would grow, accelerating LP gains, and even allowing you to skip divisions...something the current system does as well.

You have absolutely no evidence as to why "climbing would be impossible".

The only way "climbing would be impossible" is if you didn't deserve to climb, skill-wise...which just means you need to improve. If you're unwilling to put in that work, why should you climb?

Climbing is not a given. Its a merit.

FOR JUSTICENov 10, 20196 votes

MMR has a direct influence on your probability of winning. its a chess based system that works by taking some of the MMR of the loser(s), and giving it to the winner(s).

because its used to determine probability, having an MMR of 0 would equate to a 0% chance of winning, which of course is the mathematical impossible. thing is, because you cant have anything less than an impossible happening, your mmr cant go negative.

the problem arises when you beat someone with 0 MMR. because they have no MMR to take, there isnt any to be given. therefore, climbing would be impossible.

even more problems arise when you have 0 MMR to start with, but beat someone with say, 2000. how much are you given being that you just beat them despite a statistical impossible?

or what if you both have 0 MMR and beat the other? there again is no MMR to take, or for them to lose, therefore despite winning neither of you has moved an inch, and if everyone started at 0 MMR, no one could climb past 0

Kai GuyNov 10, 20192 votes

Riots titles are set for what ever MMR range they want. So there's no need to be zero. It can be the exact same MMR, start players in iron. all that happens is the % of players In ranks shift... So a little over 50% of everybody is in iron 4-2 cuz LP slant.

Its like being graded on a curve. Screaming at the professor that your upset and demanding they grade adjust grades in a way that a C grade would become an F and thinking that's gonna help you pass the class. Its Absolutely fucking stupid but many folks don't make an effort to learn the mechanics. So... ya got to be chill and walk them over it.

Is there an average level of skill? Does skill impact Wr in games of skill. Pretty self evident "yes" but ya cant tell folks that. Need to let them walk over the logic first. Then show what Binominal distribution looks like. 2 games with 2 possible outcomes? that's 4 possible results. ww,wl,lw,ll. so 25% odds forLL. 50% for w1 L1 and 25% for WW Order of WL and LW does not matter as the end result is still 1 and 1.

Thus its on a curve and results are held up to what's most probable from the average vs results for a raiting.

Its honestly a real Pain in the ass to get players on the boards to take the time to look up the logic behind Elo ratings. So many bitch about gameplay as proof for a mathematical system.

https://imgur.com/a/lzjqXyp

@ influx of downvotes cuz you see my name. Go for it. Please point out the variable built from how close a game is. Get more mad that i am literally giving you copy and paste knowledge on the topic from the guy who built it. Only been around from 1960.

IainG10Nov 10, 20192 votes

It is worth noting that Riot may no longer be using the Elo system; they certainly did in S1&2, but when they moved to what they call the League System the MMR was hidden and Rank/Division was all that was left public. They may still use Elo or a modified version, they may use something else entirely; other games (notably WoW for Arena) have actively moved away from Elo because it is not particularly good for complex games (it doesn't take into account balance, only pure tactical skill).

NoobDefaultNov 10, 20198 votes

{quoted}

Why does the ladder not start in iron, and you are able to climb up to the top of challenger like a real ladder, rather than starting high silver/low gold and sliding down one side of the bell curve toward either high or low elo?

There's currently 1 game recorded in iron on Yasuo GLOBALLY. All 4 divisions.

Why do we have this tier again if absolutely NOBODY is in it?

The only excuse for not changing how our "ladder" works is padding out the majority of the player base's time investment working toward gold, since everybody 'has it in their sights' even if some can't reach it. Because the more you play the game, the more likely you are to buy a skin.

By starting the rank ladder in the middle you create a bottleneck of frustration where people who are on their way to gold have to to play with or against inexperienced players.

Kai GuyNov 10, 20194 votes

Yes. it would be far better to make those players iron and experience the same bottle neck of frustration of having to play with or against inexperienced players to hit bronze.

Much better solution.

NoobDefaultNov 11, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MTr3tiiq,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-11-10T07:03:29.673+0000)

Yes. it would be far better to make those players iron and experience the same bottle neck of frustration of having to play with or against inexperienced players to hit bronze.

Much better solution.

You dont understand the term "bottleneck" do you? ROFL

Kai GuyNov 11, 20191 votes

It's an arbitrary scale so the numeric values only matter to their specific systems. You don't go any faster just cuz you changed from 60 mph to 96.5 kilometers per hour. The two numbers represent the same speed in their respective systems.

Riot puts players at iron mmr? If they do this by changing the starting mmr to reflect current rank expectations? The distribution model has not changed. So ladder redistributes over time till that new mmr range reflects a rough range with the majority of the games players in a class interval above and below it.

Keep the mmr value the same but change ranks represent new mmr ranges with iron covering thr starting mmr? Kudos now all current players below a point in low gold high silver are all now iron.

At no point are you addressing how players are distributed or accounting for it. So yes. Bottle neck the people struggling with gold to be fighting for bronze instead with and vs the exact same players they already have in their games.

Go look up. Leagues season 1 when Elo was a visible thing and there was only 4 ranks and any one under 1200 did not get a rank vs season 2 when they made silver cover the old Elo ranges of bronze and all the old unrankable accounts became new bronze.

If your accounts rank was All it took to make you better or worse at the game then idiots who get boosted or pay for higher elo accounts would not be such dead weight. MMR is a probability system and its on a curve, not 0 to 100.

NoobDefaultNov 11, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MTr3tiiq,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-11T02:28:02.080+0000)

It's an arbitrary scale so the numeric values only matter to their specific systems. You don't go any faster just cuz you changed from 60 mph to 96.5 kilometers per hour. The two numbers represent the same speed in their respective systems.

Riot puts players at iron mmr? If they do this by changing the starting mmr to reflect current rank expectations? The distribution model has not changed. So ladder redistributes over time till that new mmr range reflects a rough range with the majority of the games players in a class interval above and below it.

Keep the mmr value the same but change ranks represent new mmr ranges with iron covering thr starting mmr? Kudos now all current players below a point in low gold high silver are all now iron.

At no point are you addressing how players are distributed or accounting for it. So yes. Bottle neck the people struggling with gold to be fighting for bronze instead with and vs the exact same players they already have in their games.

Go look up. Leagues season 1 when Elo was a visible thing and there was only 4 ranks and any one under 1200 did not get a rank vs season 2 when they made silver cover the old Elo ranges of bronze and all the old unrankable accounts became new bronze.

If your accounts rank was All it took to make you better or worse at the game then idiots who get boosted or pay for higher elo accounts would not be such dead weight. MMR is a probability system and its on a curve, not 0 to 100.

It's cute how your trying to sound clever

Kai GuyNov 11, 20193 votes

I am providing pretty literal information. Your call on how you wish to view it. 8 can be a high number or low, context matters. No one is magically going to get better if you downgraded the ladder to Iron. Everybody on the skill curve remains at the same level of skill.

I don't mind helping you understand it but if your going to not even learn the basics and build a theory with no consideration for how the system functions you should get used to finding yourself incorrect.

You can simply take a moment to look up the history of this game between S1 and S2 to see Riot change the MMR value for rankings. Bronze went from starting at 1250 to being under 1150.

NoobDefaultNov 11, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MTr3tiiq,comment-id=000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-11T07:58:21.002+0000)

I am providing pretty literal information. Your call on how you wish to view it. 8 can be a high number or low, context matters. No one is magically going to get better if you downgraded the ladder to Iron. Everybody on the skill curve remains at the same level of skill.

I don't mind helping you understand it but if your going to not even learn the basics and build a theory with no consideration for how the system functions you should get used to finding yourself incorrect.

You can simply take a moment to look up the history of this game between S1 and S2 to see Riot change the MMR value for rankings. Bronze went from starting at 1250 to being under 1150.

You are delusional. Nothing you say will ever justify your original statement. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Bye.

Kai GuyNov 11, 20192 votes

No one magically gets better or worse if you forcefully change their accounts Rank.

Its really that fucking simple.

NoobDefaultNov 11, 20191 votes

[deleted]

Kai GuyNov 11, 20192 votes

That You don't like the center of the curve being so close to Gold? Boo hoo.

No one magically gets better or worse if you forcefully change their accounts Rank.

NoobDefaultNov 11, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MTr3tiiq,comment-id=0004000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-11T17:22:13.726+0000)

That You don't like the center of the curve being so close to Gold? Boo hoo.

Haha. Aww, it's cute that you are so salty. Bless you. More tantrums plz.

JonesybonesNov 10, 20195 votes

It does start in iron. New account are automatically placed there.

Kai GuyNov 10, 20197 votes

Nah. Riots Placement ranks you get are completely bullshit and just around to hid how massive demotion protection in division 4 is. I took the time to manipulate the system by forceing remakes. Placed "bronze" and shockingly skipped 4 divisions and only had to win 1 promo seires to hit gold when maintaining roughly 50% gold 3 MMR.

Took all of 50 games of rocking support.

JonesybonesNov 10, 20191 votes

no you start in iron. I know this for a fact because I started in iron this season after not playing for 2 seasons.

WoonStruckNov 10, 20191 votes

That's statistically impossible considering I've found only 2 records of iron players recorded by matchmaking data GLOBALLY.

If people started in iron, there would be tens of thousands of games recorded by the API.

If you really did start in iron, its because you 'earned' it.

Kai GuyNov 10, 20191 votes

I think given tea's rating from last year, seeing Iron as the "placement" Rank is realistic if they did not have a great placement series. I doubt they was playing at the MMR for iron, I expect a bronze Match average would have been the norm.

JonesybonesNov 11, 20191 votes

I didn't play ranked last year. Hello? make up more stuff please? I'll even source the patch for you where riot says specifically you are suppose to start iron.

Kai GuyNov 11, 20191 votes

Your floating from your S6 https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=GreenTeaAndPoro+. My bad. I did not check the year just what most recent history, being bronze. I felt it reasonable as currently post positional Ranking tends to under value folks for motivation I guess?

I provided incorrect information. This was my error. Adjustment. Given Teas last ranked season Seeing Iron is fairly realistic.

Edit. I can provide a screen cap of Riot support telling me that accounts start placement in iron. That was prior to them gutting positional Rankings thou. Seems to have been done away with as match averages when I tested it recent is S2.

JonesybonesNov 11, 20191 votes

That makes more sense. See I knew i was right. I said 'new' accounts.

Kai GuyNov 11, 20191 votes

Indeed, but that's not looking to be accurate anymore. S2 is the match average when I made a new account. Flex and Solo https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=NotNotkaiguy I assume that positional Ques played a factor in it.

ﬂooNov 11, 20191 votes

Since pre-ranked games are already considered when matching you with returning players and not new ones, does it not have an influence on your given placement rank?

WoonStruckNov 11, 20191 votes

Placements have no interaction with anything on your account outside of your placement match outcomes, as far as I know.

ﬂooNov 11, 20191 votes

I'm talking about the games before placements. Does the game factor in your performance from lvl 1-30 until you can rank as well? And if so, to what degree?

WoonStruckNov 11, 20191 votes

The games you play from level 1-3 follow bot matchmaking, 3-5 follow aram matchmaking, 5 - til your 20th champ normal blind matchmaking, and 20th champ and after normal draft matchmaking, assuming you simply move to only the most competitive mode as it becomes available. Obviously, you could simply play bots to 30, or aram, or whatever queue type you desire, but you'd be working with that queue type's MMR.

As you enter each new queue type, you start at a fresh, static MMR for that queue type, regardless of where your MMR has landed, and raise/fall in MMR as you normally would in ranked, but without tiers/divisions being displayed.

Then finally, when you hit 30, you start at a fresh, static MMR for ranked queue. There are no other factors that currently influence your starting MMR. Everything is determined by the wins and losses in placements, with earlier games yielding larger increases/decreases in MMR. This normalizes over 50-100 matches or whatever the number is.

ﬂooNov 11, 20191 votes

I see, thanks for the info

Kai GuyNov 11, 20191 votes

Riots been pretty adamant about their "ques are independent of each other" Are you talking about Prior seasons ranked history on an account?

ﬂooNov 11, 20191 votes

No no, I'm talking about your games from level 1-30. You said the average given rank seems to be ~S2, while GreenTea claimed it was iron. I'm wondering if those games have an impact on the rank too. I wouldn't be surprised if actual new players who don't know how the game works and play terrible in comparison to a returning player are being placed in actual iron tier. But I doubt it's the same for 2nd accounts, since they already divide the queues before you can even play ranked.

JonesybonesNov 11, 20191 votes

nope even kai confirmed it you start in iron if you are a new account. or basically if you did not play last season.

Kai GuyNov 11, 20191 votes

I confirmed that early this year that was the case but also that it no longer seems to be accurate. And that The Rank given does not remotely reflect an accurate MMR value.

I put effort into making as wide of a MMR to Rank gap by forceing /remakes in placements and failing promotional games with lobby dodges. I made an effort to test the system. The Given placement rank is not an accurate value to an accounts MMR.

ŻügżwängNov 11, 20191 votes

I stopped in season 5 and started at the end of this year. My first ranked win (solo queue) put me in silver 3 or 4.

JonesybonesNov 11, 20192 votes

https://www.riftherald.com/lol-gameplay/2018/12/10/18134804/grandmaster-iron-tier-ranks-league

WHAT DOES THIS SAY??? fresh accounts start in iron. Boom mic drop

ŻügżwängNov 11, 20191 votes

It says, let me quote it: "new accounts will likely have to climb from Iron". LIKELY Moreover this isn't even a first party source. Moreover, we aren't talking about fresh accounts, as you and I both had ranked games prior to the implementation of Iron. Moreover, you said you placed in iron after not playing 2 seasons. After my 3 season break, my first win (1-0) got me to silver, after which I continued to climb over my 8 games (finishing gold 3). You placing in Iron doesn't mean all others do.

JonesybonesNov 11, 20191 votes

Actually you should place in iron. Riot even said them selves you should place in iron starting out. So either you are lying or your a minority. Because even players who were plat places in iron having played the previous seasons. And on top of that even a person above me who spoke to riot support confirmed it.

god why do you have to be so illogically frustrating? i was placed in iron and got out in like 10 games. Hello???? logic are you there? earth to logic?

ŻügżwängNov 11, 20191 votes

My logic is pretty clear to follow...

Also, I don't know where I SHOULD place, but I'm telling you where I did. I'm not some high level challenger player either. You can check my op.gg and click on solo ranked games. There are 8 of them, with the first having an average of gold 4, and the last having an average of gold 2.

Again, before this season, my last ranked game was in season 5 (I have victorious morgana and graves only). I also did the ranked games in October, so not sure if that has anything to do with it.

JonesybonesNov 11, 20191 votes

Well it prob has to do with the players you matched with. i must of matched with iron players. because i have no idea. i just know what riot said.

Kai GuyNov 11, 20192 votes

I made a fresh account and went off Match average not the projected Rank. https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=NotNotkaiguy

I don't know when but it very clearly seems to have shifted away from giving "fresh" accounts Iron titles. I did not test anything at the start of the season so how inaccurate an "iron" raiting vs match average was is data I lack.

Very much looks like the current starting MMR for flex and Solo on NA is Silver 2.

WoonStruckNov 11, 20191 votes

Did you get any data on how the MMR gap allowed in matches has grown? I know there's a specific variable name, but I haven't done research into the core system of matchmaking.

Kai GuyNov 11, 20192 votes

Class interval or Standard Deviation are the terms your likely looking for. To have a 24/7 que riots MM has to make a game so ultimately there's no real cap on the range.

In the OG Elo it was 200 points and represented 76 to 24% odds for a class interval gap.

This is why I have beef with Duo que, cuz that its off ranks not MMR and the visible player percentile gap is something like 70% of the player base from a silver 4 at assumed Bronze MMR qued with a G1 at assumed Plat MMR.

We is the variable that impacts MMR raiting gains or loss in relation to MMR gaps. So folks who are expected to lose who lose don't get hit as hard and folks who are expected to win that win make smaller gains. MM is a factor in MMR systems so super dramatic gaps are less likely to happen. Good MMR uses a tighter MMR range for its MM as much as possible.

Sorry, I know this is not a direct answer to your question. The direct answer is No, I don't have any idea on if or what MMR gaps allowed by MMR roughly tend to be because its not a set value and riots MM system information is not provided to let any one know its priority. It seems to be roughly 1-2 divisions at worst for dedicated solo but duoing fucks it all up randomly as does high uncertainty and some Preseason fringe cases.

I also don't have good information on what Riots Positional MM system looks like, Everybody things that got gutted but as far as the information I have seen the only thing removed was positional Rankings/ques. Positional MM was added preseason and Riot Sap magic seems to be a fan. On paper it makes sense to me, thou it would fk up OTP players a bit if they main highly popular roles.

I've asked a few folks for some screen caps of LP slant but all of 1 dude have expressed interest helping with trying to use Slant to look for a pattern in MMR gaps. Oh well.

Darkdemon653Nov 11, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Why does the ladder not start in iron, and you are able to climb up to the top of challenger like a real ladder

Because one could lose 100% of one's game and be rated the same as someone who wins 50% of one's games

WoonStruckNov 11, 20191 votes

That's completely inaccurate as a reasoning.

The only way that interaction occurs is the bottleneck at the current natural starting point...and that's not a reason for not having a ladder you actually have to climb.

You're just saying how it is under the current flawed system.

Kai GuyNov 11, 20191 votes

Should be pointed out that WR %s with out context are questionable metrics. Out of how many games? Is it a Fresh or established account? Are they accounting for the fact it rounds to whole numbers?

50% over 2 games vs 300 changes context and then take those same examples and make it into diamond MMR vs bronze and the context changes once more.

Theres some folks who go on and on about how rigged Promos are because their teams overall WR is always worse then the enemy team. But... the guy does not account for the fact his account is sitting a sub 50% Wr. That shows up every game he plays. Calling himself disadvantaged intentionally by riot because of WR being 1% (2% when you account for the gap of 49% vs 51%) overall. I don't get it, but hey conformational bias and all that fancy jargon.

I have always been a fan of this Image for Dunner Kruger.

https://imgur.com/a/11TaaUp