The hard on this forum has for mages and tank supports is amazing

VDc0zCqe0w··36 votes·4,213 views

Vayne having huge pickrate with good winrate makes her OP as hell, meawhile Lux is http://champion.gg/champion/Lux/Middle

Totally fine /s

I see a Yasuo QQ topic every 3 days, meanwhile Veigar http://champion.gg/champion/Veigar/Middle and there are topics popping out saying how he shouldn't get nerfed etc...while he's a broken mess atm and i think he will reach 54% with 10% pickrate soon enough, all people need to do is figure out how broken he is (wich is what challenger players already did).

This forum uses winrates only when it's good to support their arguments, else this guy http://champion.gg/champion/Yasuo/Top with his totally normal 50.40% would be considered balanced.

But hey, Janna getting nerfed for having 54% winrate with 18% pickrate was "deserved", while Blitzcrank http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Support&sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend having THE SAME STATS, is totally fine, i mean, he's a tank right?

97 Comments

Sherogarth37 votes

There is one very important factor in every QQ topic: How fun is playing against said champion.

Even if theoretical champion X had 65% win ratio then if:

  1. its fun to play for both sides,
  2. players feel that there is counterplay,
  3. whole champ is considered healthly, then QQ topics for champ X will rarely appear on boards.

Usually Mages like Veigar or Lux are considered more healthly than any assassin. Thats why Yasuo will always get all that hate.

On the other hand there is Blitz... Imo boards are just tired hating him for so long xD.

Doomchem10 votes

{quoted}

There is one very important factor in every QQ topic: How fun is playing against said champion.

{quoted}

Lux

Hmmmmm

Autrah Fang1 votes

[deleted]

Voluug133 votes

wait... its fun playing against zed? lane against him and once he hits 9 he can R > q > ignite and you die while he goes back to safery. i dont know about you but that isnt fun to me at all.

Spizzle90002 votes

{quoted}

wait... its fun playing against zed? lane against him and once he hits 9 he can R > q > ignite and you die while he goes back to safery. i dont know about you but that isnt fun to me at all.

What? Also, have you ever heard of armor, a QSS, capitalization, Zhonya's, or CC?

Voluug134 votes

So apparently those are a valid counterplay for Zed but not for Veigar?

QSS, capitalization, Zhonia's, CC or Resistance all work for against Veigar.

Le Dauphin4 votes

This is what so many people keep ignoring. People complain because they're not having fun playing against the champion, and win percentages are only a small part of it. To quote Dyrus, "I just want to play some League of Legends". Meaning going through the game of laning/trading/dueling, skirmishing/ganking, teamfighting, and feeling useful while doing it.

Let's go through some hated champs quickly:

  • Yasuo/Fizz: dodge all your skillshots by zooming around. another skill makes you invulnerable. Yasuo even has an extra passive shield

  • Vayne (also Fiora): build whatever resists you want, Vayne can still kill you in a certain number of autos.

  • Soraka (also Darius): you tried to trade. the enemy took no net damage

  • Kalista: have no gap closer? can't touch her at all while she kills you

In general, mages:

  • don't have excessive mobility / self-peel. Would you rather try to hit Veigar with a skill shot, or Yasuo/LeBlanc zooming and blinking all over the place.

  • have avoidable skillshots. Lux can be 20-0-10, but you can still sidestep her spells. Ahri has high win and pick rates too, but she has to work to land her charm. Orianna's been relevant forever, but when she lands a 5-man shockwave, it's your team's fault for not only clumping against an Orianna, but also not reacting in the massive amounts of time before the ball was in place.

  • can be suppressed even when fed. Related to the first point, but also includes sustain / duel potential. Your mid lane fed Lux? She'll still die if you dive her. Mages aren't just good at teamfighting, they're reliant on it.

All of which are fun to play against.

Which mages do people hate? Annie of the "I stun and burst you and you can't do anything about it" doesn't let you respond. A fed Swain becomes impossible to kill and is hated. LeBlanc gets plenty of hate for the mobility, but she's more of an assassin anyways.

As for Blitzcrank/Janna, I've seen plenty of hate for Blitzcrank and protests at the Janna nerfs, so I don't really agree with OP's premise. Thresh is probably the most hated support and he falls on the tanky side too.

TotalJerk2 votes

Everything you just described about mages could be loosely applied to Morgana, and people fucking HATED her for years.

o9y9pcvBhd1 votes

meh, they hated one skill on her

Sire Hippington2 votes

Either i'm different from most players(quite possible i guess) or that'S not as important as preserving the circle jerk.

I for one find Lux far less fun to face than thresh or Yasuo, i prefer faceing Fizz far over a Janna, and depending on my pick, i'd curse more over veigar than i ever did over Zed...

And i honestly don't understand why there aren't much complaints about Annie...http://champion.gg/champion/Annie/Middle. Insane performance and no counterplay at all....

FirexSaber1 votes

There's tons of complaints about Annie. Usually at least once a week there's a: "Tibbers should be a thrown projectile" thread.

Sire Hippington1 votes

compared by to the number of yasuo, thresh and juggernaut complaineds, it's nothing

Ionian7 votes

At least there is counterplay to Lux as she is 100% skillshot based, meanwhile champions like Yasuo and Vayne are absolutely disgusting to play against, some of the if not THE most overrated champions in terms of difficulty (their skillcaps may be high, but their skillfloors are that of ANNIE), Vayne has 0 skillshots and Yasuo can EQ to ensure a hit on his only "skillshot".

Only Play Darius4 votes

[{quoted}](name=If Ahri Was Real,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MTWuM9c1,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-09-28T16:32:27.861+0000)

Yasuo can EQ to ensure a hit on his only "skillshot".

Also putting himself in danger especially since he actually has no reliable escapes.

If you let him and his glass build walk dash into the middle of your team without focusing him you deserve to get ulted.

Ionian9 votes

OH YEAH

Implying Yasuo needs to hit a Q to ult lmao. You seem to forget when someone picks Yasuo everyone picks champs with tons of knockups so the poor guy doesn't have to hurt his hand trying to aim his only skillshot.

Urgonnalearn2day2 votes

[{quoted}](name=If Ahri Was Real,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MTWuM9c1,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2015-09-28T17:34:55.964+0000)

OH YEAH

Implying Yasuo needs to hit a Q to ult lmao. You seem to forget when someone picks Yasuo everyone picks champs with tons of knockups so the poor guy doesn't have to hurt his hand trying to aim his only skillshot.

Well we do it because hitting his ult can be rough on demand otherwise. It's not an easy champ to play at all. A good yasuo is deadly a bad yasuo just dies.

Ionian2 votes

"hitting his ult can be rough on demand otherwise"

Yes because it requires hitting a skillshot. The only thing about his entire kit that could possibly take some skill to perform lmfao.

Spizzle90004 votes

[{quoted}](name=If Ahri Was Real,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MTWuM9c1,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-28T18:08:21.027+0000)

"hitting his ult can be rough on demand otherwise"

Yes because it requires hitting a skillshot. The only thing about his entire kit that could possibly take some skill to perform lmfao.

Says the person with a summoner name about Ahri, a champion with two undodgeable abilities with 3 flashes in her ultimate and a movement speed buff on her q, that infernal charm (although it IS harder to land than Yasuo's third Q), and a heal on her passive.

I have this feeling you're just salty because you're probably an Ahri main and Yasuos tend to ruin Ahri.

At least Yasuo has to be around enemies to escape.

Ionian5 votes

Did you know Yasuo also has 2 undodgeable abilities? And also infinite dashes? (dash=/=flash, Ahri ult is dashes) But because needing to be around enemies to escape is such a huge disadvantage (xd), he also has a windwall and a regenerating shield. Oh, and no resources because resource management is hard. I could main any champion and I would still dislike Yasuo. And I'm far from being alone in this.

Spizzle90001 votes

[{quoted}](name=If Ahri Was Real,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MTWuM9c1,comment-id=0005000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-28T20:00:26.515+0000)

Did you know Yasuo also has 2 undodgeable abilities? And also infinite dashes? (dash=/=flash, Ahri ult is dashes) But because needing to be around enemies to escape is such a huge disadvantage (xd), he also has a windwall and a regenerating shield. Oh, and no resources because resource management is hard. I could main any champion and I would still dislike Yasuo. And I'm far from being alone in this.

And what, pray tell? His E and ultimate? Well, he needs knock-ups for the ultimate. And in the mean-time, the enemies who aren't knocked up can attack you.

Infinite dashes with a 6 second cool-down per unit at max rank which is mostly only good in lane and in very close chases. Whereas Ahri can just throw out some damage more mixed than Bruno Mars and escape, not even needing to be near enemies to use it. Oh and you have those nice dashes to get away just in case the movement speed boost isn't enough. And none of your escapes require you to be near enemies.

Well, how would it make sense for a champion whose entire kit revolves around spamming low base-damage abilities to have resources? And you have that heal on your passive.

Just because a champion is disliked doesn't mean it's OP. And just because a champion isn't hated doesn't mean it's balanced.

Audiomancy5 votes

{quoted}Well, how would it make sense for a champion whose entire kit revolves around spamming low base-damage abilities to have resources?

Syndra, Orianna and Cassiopeia would like a word with you.

Spizzle90002 votes

{quoted}

Syndra, Orianna and Cassiopeia would like a word with you.

xD Valid point. Syndra and Cassiopeia need some work done on them, although Orianna seems fine to me.

And, remember: none of these champions have to be up close and personal in fights, unlike Yasuo. And Cassiopeia and Orianna have more AoE damage than Yasuo does.

Vekkna3 votes

Well we do it because hitting his ult can be rough on demand otherwise. It's not an easy champ to play at all. A good yasuo is deadly a bad yasuo just dies. follows Malphite, Riven, and Nautilus around and spams R from a bush at 1200 range until suddenly the 0/5/0 becomes 10/5/10

Fixed.

Audiomancy3 votes

{quoted} A good yasuo is deadly a bad yasuo just dies.

Isn't that true for every champion?

Only Play Darius1 votes

I was referring solely to the specific situation "EQ to ensure a hit on his only skillshot".

I agree it can be infuriating how he blinks across the map, stuns you for 1 second, and gets bonus armor pen just because his ally so much as sneezed on you, but that isn't what i'm talking about here. Strictly stating that using the EQ knockup anywhere outside of laning phase is more likely to get him killed than anything else.

Mr Broken Wings7 votes

Also funny: this board thinks ahri is hard and its okay for her to have 55% winrate with one of the least experienced playerbases of all champions because "muh skillshot" for months. But if lee sin has 45% winrate he is fuckin broken. #justgameplayandbronzethings

VDc0zCqe0w2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Broken Wings,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MTWuM9c1,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2015-09-28T19:07:37.751+0000)

Also funny: this board thinks ahri is hard and its okay for her to have 55% winrate with one of the least experienced playerbases of all champions because "muh skillshot" for months. But if lee sin has 45% winrate he is fuckin broken. #justgameplayandbronzethings

TBH i just wish the guy would shut down that site and every other site listing winrates and such, the only thing they are useful for is to whine about X champion being too strong (for some ungodly randomic reason).

You have to fucking PLAY AS or AGAINST a champion multiple times, try to COUNTER him/her and see if he/she sucks or not, wich is why i can say Sona fucking sucks and i'm not playing her till some buffs/another rework.

But "HERR DERR MUH 51.62% SONA WINRATE".

Mr Broken Wings1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Puffball idk,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MTWuM9c1,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2015-09-28T20:33:15.591+0000)

TBH i just wish the guy would shut down that site and every other site listing winrates and such, the only thing they are useful for is to whine about X champion being too strong (for some ungodly randomic reason).

You have to fucking PLAY AS or AGAINST a champion multiple times, try to COUNTER him/her and see if he/she sucks or not, wich is why i can say Sona fucking sucks and i'm not playing her till some buffs/another rework.

But "HERR DERR MUH 51.62% SONA WINRATE".

I played sona, and she is fuckin strong, you are bad. And no, winrates and statistics prove things, saying otherwise over a sample over x thousand games is stupid.

VDc0zCqe0w2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Broken Wings,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MTWuM9c1,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2015-09-28T20:47:28.608+0000)

I played sona, and she is fuckin strong, you are bad.

I'll add you since you're from EUW and let's duo a game (you're only 4 division below me anyways), show me how Sona is any good.

[{quoted}](name=Mr Broken Wings,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MTWuM9c1,comment-id=000d00000000,timestamp=2015-09-28T20:47:28.608+0000)

And no, winrates and statistics prove things, saying otherwise over a sample over x thousand games is stupid.

lol'd

WarlockLaw5 votes

They problem with the Veigar changes us that they addressed one of the problems his kit had while also buffing him numerically. 5 ap per assist is a little strong and I hope that if they nerf him for this they don't nerf anything but this, make it like 1/1/2/2/3 per assist.

Vayne has over 3 times the pick rate of Lux, and a lot of complaints involve how they see her every other game not just how strong she is. Something needs to be done about both honestly.

Yasuo is a champion with a kit that is disproportionately powerful based on his team comp. Because of that he should honestly have a below average winrate in soloq where people aren't always inclined to make a "yasuo comp"

I have no idea why people aren't complaining about blitz. Maybe they are too busy complaing about Vayne to realize they lost because of blitz?

Silents4295 votes

Just don't.

You argue with a hive mind and achieve nothing at all.

Since I consider myself safer here for expressing hatred, I am ridiculously sick of the "praise supports evil marksmen" threads though.

Xanes4 votes

In general, anything positive about/for Supports/Tanks will get upvoted. Anything about Assassins/ADC's will get downvoted.

Shroom Junkie3 votes

I think people hate Vayne specifically because she's so good. Like, Lux has a good pickrate but isn't nearly as good. She has burst but not continuous damage, she's not the only mage with CC(that isn't an ult), she doesn't have tons of mobility, she can be defended against, etc.

Dengeden1 votes

Puhleeze, want me to list Vayne's weaknesses?

Shroom Junkie1 votes

Squishy. CC. Basically any ADC. And she fixes a lot of her squish with Blood Thirster, the BotRK lifesteal, and possibly GA late game.

Dengeden1 votes

And you're blind to any weaknesses built into her kit so that should about cover it, yep.

Shroom Junkie1 votes

Would you like to tell me such weaknesses that I'm blind to? Pretty sure the only possible other one is none of her abilities go past her AA range unlike most other ADC's.

Dengeden2 votes
  1. Silver bolts are hard to proc in lane
  2. No wave clear, this both means that the enemy duo lane can chip the tower at their leisure and that she's vulnerable to the ensuing poke
  3. She's entirely single target and if her target is the wrong one or it manages to survive, she's in a bad spot.
  4. Her invisibility falls off mid-late game because of true sight (not that important but mentionable)
Cloud2733 votes

The funny thing is that winrates for plat+ are pretty similar to overall winrates. We have champion.gg that gives us statistics for plat+, and we have lolking.net for all games. If you compare the win rates on both sites, you'll see a lot of the same champions (Lux, Amumu, Wukong, Heimerdinger, Brand, and Malzahar are on both sites for the top 10).

Ultîma3 votes

http://www.bestbans.com/

"_If you calculate win consistency, which matters more than a champion's strength when banning; a champion's strength does not matter if they are not picked enough or most players cannot succesfully use that power. Consistency matters more than frustration; obnoxious champions often have crippling weaknesses that lead to low winrates and pickrates. Their consistency, even in lower tiers, is often an illusion. _"

So you cross reference win-rates, pick rates, and ban rates and then you'll have a far more accurate depiction of which characters people should be complaining about because they're too consistently powerful as opposed to powerful in certain circumstances. Another point to take into account would be how some characters are consistently powerful at different levels of play; that's a pretty good indicator that a champion's kit is the problem since skill doesn't factor into their overall strength. Darius, Blitz, Jinx and Lux are at the top of the charts for every elo.

People need to get over their bias towards characters like Fiora and Yasuo and take a better look at the data.

Wyrmblade3 votes

The difference is that Veigar and Lux are much more fun to play against than Vayne or Yasuo. Also people don't like blitzcrank either.

Kat Head1 votes

{quoted}

The difference is that Veigar and Lux are much more fun to play against than Vayne or Yasuo. Also people don't like blitzcrank either.

In what world ? Like what game are you playing ?

Vayne and Yasuo have massive weaknesses that can be exploited, mid to late game they become extremely powerful and less fun to play against ( I am tired of both of them also, but to suggest they are more unfun to play against than viegar and lux is straight crazy).

Viegar and Lux sit under tower all day throwing cc at you and when one finally hits YOU DIE. Lux is almost impossible to punish for the mistakes she makes in lane due to her massive range and being able to hide under turret all day. Lux cannot be interacted with without Jungle help and even then you have to be damn careful not to get double killed. The recent buffs did not make Lux good, she was already good and already enjoyed a high win rate. The recent buffs got Lux noticed by the people and now she is in every game. Lux is far to safe of a champion for her current power level, bordering on op even. Viegar on the other hand is very op, but a little less safe than Lux and honestly needs immediate adjustment.

Wyrmblade2 votes

Vayne and Yasuo don't have massive weaknesses, they have weaknesses, but they're covered up by other parts of their kit/role.

Vayne has a weak early game, but she'll almost always have a support that will help her stop you from bullying her out of lane. She has no poke, but she does enough damage that she never needs it. She has average range for an ADC, but she has a dash, a knockback, and invisibilty to get out of danger. She's weak to siege, but the threat of her damage can often keep people off the tower.

Yasuo is melee, but he has a shield, a shield that blocks projectiles, and the second best combat mobility in the game to prevent poke. Yasuo needs a knock up to ult, but that knock up can be from any player in the game, including things you can't dodge like a lee sin kick or a vayne condemn. His E sends him at a fixed distance, but he can often use it again before your spell can get there, meaning you need to predict two or even three dodges ahead when trying to land poke against him, and he can often use that time to go a different route.

Vayne is unfun to play against because she has very little counterplay. She can beat pretty much any other champion in the game in a 1v1 duel when played decently, so unless you have extremely long range and lots of safety, like Cait or Xerath, you can't risk poking her most of the time because she has her passive and a low CD dash that makes her invisible to get to you. There is not a single ability in her kit that can be dodged aside from the stun on her E, so if she has better stats than you, she wins the fight pretty much every time. This means if she gets ahead, she snowballs hard, and she does percent health true damage, making building against her impossible (No, Frozen Heart and Randuins barely help and it's ludicrous that you'd have to build both every time a vayne is in the game.) From a non-gameplay standpoint, she attacks in an infuriatingly smug, non-nonchalant way, her model is pretty bad, and her auto attack sound effects are loud and obnoxious.

Yasuo is unfun to play against because (guess) he has very little counterplay. His Q and E deal instant damage, meaning there's no way to flash out of them, shield yourself, or stun him before he can get it off, you have to predict when he'll use them instead. His W comes out instantly and can block any projectile in the game, with no limits on what it can block or how much it can block. The third charge of his Q can be dodged, but Yasuo can hold it for ten seconds to pressure, and if he uses E, you can't dodge it. Yasuo's ultimate is instant lockdown extends existing lockdown and deals damage, and dodging it means dodging every form of knock up or back in the game. From a non-gameplay standpoint, getting killed by an edgy anime guy feels kind of shitty.

Yasuo and Vayne's kit make it easy for them to outplay people, meanwhile, most champions have almost no way to outplay them.

Meanwhile, every ability Lux has is a skillshot. When you trade against Lux, you can come out ahead as long as you're skilled enough to dodge her abilities (Yes, her E and Ult can be dodged.) If Lux has higher stats than you, you can OUTPLAY her and still have a chance. Lux can't farm from under tower forever because she has mana. If she tries to harass you then she'll push the wave, meaning she can't just sit under her tower, which leaves her vulnerable because she has no mobility. Her lack of mobility also means that if you can dodge her abilities, she has no way to escape from you, so you can kill her without having to keep her locked/poked down 100-0.

ALL of the above paragraph applies to Veigar, except that you can't dodge his ultimate, but it's okay because he's squishy and has no mobility to get near you with its low range. You have to make a mistake and stand in his E first, unlike Vayne and Yasuo, who if they have better numbers than you, can kill you without landing any hard skillshots beforehand.

Having ways to play against other champions is fun because it makes you feel like you're better than them when you beat them, you didn't win because they made a mistake, you won because you made no mistakes, and that feels good. Winning with skill is more fun than winning with stats, and I'm sure most people can agree with that.

This is earth, and I'm playing League of Legends. Toodles m8.

TotalJerk3 votes

Here's a little checklist to let you know when this board will defend an OP champion

  • Are they immobile?
  • Do they have a low pickrate?
  • Are they "not meta"

If any of these are true, no matter how broken the champion is, they will be defended to the death. Ever since her rework people were swearing up and down that Soraka was "gutted", as soon as Consensual Clown started talking about reaching Challenger with her, she was "balanced", and now that she's seen LCS play and started to break into the top 8 picked supports, she's "cancer".

C9 Scott Free 1 votes

I will cosign this shit in blood. Raka is the only support that forces you to dive and kill her or else everything you do in the fight will be meaningless.

TotalJerk1 votes

Meh, Sona has to be focused when she's ahead. Still you can completely ignore her when she's behind.

C9 Scott Free 1 votes

Nah, outside of her ult she isn't nearly as game changing as Raka and her every 3 second healing and BS ulty.

luckmallory1 votes

Check the win rate and play rate in Plat+. That is all riot cares about

SaltyKracka10 votes

...That is precisely the point of champ.gg, the site the OP linked.

seriously, lern2read

luckmallory4 votes

So used to people using lolking i guess i wasn't paying attention

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