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Does riot play favorites? No, no they don't. Riot plays priorities.

CerealBoxOfDoom··15 votes·1,409 views

first of all just read this

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/features/dev-blog-design-values-league-legends

Riot is a company and frankly nobody cares if a cool thing is a little underpowered unless people are just whining too much or overpowered but for the most part overpowered is a bigger issue than underpowered blahblahblah.

I don't know the exact formula but here's some stuff to consider.

First of all winrates. Lolking is not accurate, op.gg is probably even worse. Some sites have been known to be 1-10% off mkay? plus there's stuff like 5 hour games you can't factor out or whatever and afks. Riot can most likely do this.

Then there's things I like to call balance nightmares. The definition of this changes with riots design policy, the basics of this design policy can be found here on this possibly outdated dev article but it gives the basic idea.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/features/dev-blog-design-values-league-legends

champs that violate this don't have to be op to get nerfed OR buffed. champs that follow this may stay where they are even if they are underpowered

Look there are a lot of factors and stuff but I'm just going to shorten this by saying that Riot does not play favorites, Riot just has priorities based off a semicomplicated system of some sort that is constantly evolving. The only way to really understand this is to pay attention over an extended period of time and watch their patterns.

FOR EXAMPLE (prediction)

There will be ahri changes either direct or indirect, they will be perceived as nerfs whether they are nerf or even buffs. Ahri may get nerfed but she will be in great shape when world's comes for whatever reason. This has happened every year since season 2 where Morello once said something to the effect of "I wish we could see more mage duels in midlane like in ahri games instead of just watching them stall around" he said this as ahri's team defeated the undefeated kog/ori comp that had been dominating the tournament with slow paced boring strategy. And the fancult be like

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/L6hEyLmimZs/maxresdefault.jpg

#AhriFancultBanner

I don't love you all enough to do every champ but here's some notes on some semi-randomly selected champions and some terms you need to know

mage-assassins

Ahri Kassadin Elise Leblanc

once the only group explicitly balanced around risk/reward despite the constant regurgitation of the false quotes claiming riot HAS to balance everything around risk/reward. NO THEY DON'T. Seriously, check the Dev blog I link I provided, here it is again. Not saying riot cannot do this but they are not obligated to do so and likely don't consider risk/reward to be an actual priority.

So what is risk/reward and why/where is it important

The idea is that risk should reward you more. This does not have to be the case but this mostly goes refers to skillshots. The general rule is that risk is rewarded with cool effects and flexible options not power. This is something that seems to confuse people. Here's some champs where that applies, especially when the risk is missed skillshots or short ranged abilities on squishies.

Ahri Leblanc Kassadin Elise Zed Fizz Lux Xerath Ezreal

these are all champs who get compensated in some way for skillshots or something else with cool and unique abilities or effects but they are not intended to be more powerful for this reason alone. This is not how balance in any game works.

Just because you play a "difficult" champ like

Azir AurelionSol Zed Orianna Anivia

doesn't mean you deserve more damage and longer CC. If you enjoy the challenge then good for you, but there will be no compensation based purely on this.

Riot doesn't always nerf things it doesn't like

Riot has a very long list of things it is ready to shave off as soon as a particular champ that usually isn't a problem gets too strong or things they'd add if a champ got too weak.

Some examples of things in the past that have gotten too strong so they shaved off something

Nasus - His W was a long slow with attack speed reduction

long slows/permaslows - riot has never liked these hence why champs like Gangplank Zilean have always been treated a little weird. Older champs tend to get the shaft more than newer prototypes that will get slower changes like Ekko These aren't OP they just violate the design principles and thus there is no right or wrong way to actually judge the kit but there is a right or wrong way to balance the kit.

Diana Vladimir Karthus - boring/suffocating playstyles

champs that suffocate the game or make for boring games for any reason will often go a longer time without changes or get randomly changed. They also do this to things that get tanky while running away. But tend to hesistate when assassins begin to do this because assassins tend to be very borderline as far as policy goes if you again look at the dev blog I linked, here it is again http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/features/dev-blog-design-values-league-legends

There is a whole lot more but I'll skip it for now and just get to one of the more controversial groups so to speak. BALANCE NIGHTMARES

there exists champs that may or may not be balanced but this game should probably not be balanced around them and the slightest changes to the game could put them out of whack if riot actually tries to manage them. But here's the catch.. some are individuals, some are groups.

singles

Amumu Irelia Vladimir Riven Udyr Vayne Tryndamere Warwick Sejuani Shaco Shen Mordekaiser Teemo Nasus AurelionSol Evelynn MonkeyKing TwistedFate Alistar

You'll notice that these are all champs who are likely to just get random goodies and reworks just whenever for whatever. And yes its a lot of champs, this game is not as "stable" as you might think but its also not as imbalanced as you might think either.

The following are the groups.. a bit harder to explain but basically if you nerf one it changes a bunch of others.

groups

LeeSin Vi Elise JarvanIV

I like to call these "the elite 4" This is the jungle group that was very strong during the 2 previous seasons. They are not necessarily OP or anything but they are a group that is used to balance the jungle with champions that do way too much. For example, if nidalee is too cool to be nerfed then to balance that out they need more things that fit that playstyle and offer counters to particular phases of that playstyle so they might go to the elite four and simply make the jungle meta stronger by working in favor of these 4. It was literally stated at one point that these 4 were avoiding nerfs simply because they helped to establish a healthier jungle meta just by being as they were while at the same time it was not necessarily the kind of meta they wanted in the future. But they simply would not nerf one without nerfing the others. Once these champs finally were nerfed and everything changed dark times came and champs from the singles group came into power briefly again explaining what sort of issue they pose MasterYi Udyr Warwick

Next up is supports in general, these are literally champs designed to make other champs do things that would be too much to fit in one kit. A support plus anything else can do some weird stuff so they are balanced differently than others. But at the same time, if supports are too strong then bot lane goes into feast or famine mode, again violating the policy as mentioned repeatedly above. If supports are too weak.. well supports happen to poop on assassins and whenever supports are weak assassins become stronger. But at the same time riot is faced with a big challenge trying to make this role more attractive and fun. Doing this falls primarily under the meaningful choices category in the dev blog I linked you to

Here are the supports that need the strictest watch

Alistar Soraka Sona Lulu Janna

some of you may wonder why I don't have stuff like Annie Blitzcrank Zyra on here.. the other champs are on a different level from these simply annoying picks. They are extremes most supports will never reach. These 3 are able to be so troublesome ever because they are not on the strict watch list in the first place. Those on the strict watch list are champs that have abused their power far too hard for riot to ignore afterwards.

TL;DR

Riot does not play favorites, riot's priorities are just somewhat complicated but follow a somewhat predictable pattern or series of patterns that they are constantly touching on in numerous posts, especially ones like this design blog again

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/features/dev-blog-design-values-league-legends

19 Comments

MrPharmD5 votes

TL;DR: rito plays favorites.

ShinkoMinori3 votes

I aint reading that much is late I'm going to bed.

Papa Slothy1 votes

lol

WoonStruck3 votes

I'd agree with you if Riot actually balanced the nightmares. You obviously don't know the nightmares if you don't list Lucian and Azir.

Riot did a better job in the past of toning down outliers when they had fewer employees, less funding, and less experience.

Not including Gragas in the 'elite' junglers? What. He's in the same line as them. Think about him for a second. Riot loves having him as a staple as much as the other 4 you listed, has the resilience, ganks, teamfights, clearing, scaling, etc on par with the other 4, and is just as 'default' as them, except more-so.

Only Lee and J4 eclipse him for time in the meta. And that's only because in season 1 and 2 gragas wasn't picked up as a jungler yet, and there were only so many jungle choices you could actually make. Especially if you wanted to gank before 6. Keep in mind that lvl 2 and 3 ganks were the standard at the time. Level 4 gankers and level 6 gankers were considered weak.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

{quoted}

I'd agree with you if Riot actually balanced the nightmares. You obviously don't know the nightmares if you don't list Lucian and Azir.

Riot did a better job in the past of toning down outliers when they had fewer employees, less funding, and less experience.

Not including Gragas in the 'elite' junglers? What. He's in the same line as them. Think about him for a second. Riot loves having him as a staple as much as the other 4 you listed, has the resilience, ganks, teamfights, clearing, scaling, etc on par with the other 4, and is just as 'default' as them, except more-so.

Lucian and azir are not on the same level as things like irelia or vladmir. In fact both Lucian and Azir are relatively healthy and thus will be more easily and readily rebalanced at any given time. When irelia or vlad get too strong they will not simply be readjusted they will be nerfed into the ground and left there for extensive periods, especially if there will be any changes to their items that need to be looked at before compensation.

The junglers listed were based on riots own words. Morello's I believe. Nobody cares about gragas jungle. He was just another passing fad. You don't seem to understand the difference between a champ that is simply strong for whatever reason or opinion and a champ that is a balance nightmare.

A strong champ does many things and can be great at times. A balance nightmare is not necessarily strong but balancing them is beyond difficult either because they cannot be so easily managed like the group I referred to as the "elite 4" a pokemon reference to the gateway keepers you must defeat to beat the game or because they are used to balance everything else out. Gragas is not a balance nightmare, gragas is a small problem easily adjusted. If they wanted they could make Gragas a nonviable jungler, whatever. They don't seem to have any issue with it at the moment

Whether or not Gragas is on par with the others is nearly irrelevant. What is important is that people like you measure your performance against these 4 to determine whether or not gragas jungle is a meaningful decision.. as referred to in the dev blog linked in the original post.

WoonStruck2 votes

Lucian and azir are not on the same level as things like irelia or vladmir. In fact both Lucian and Azir are relatively healthy and thus will be more easily and readily rebalanced at any given time. When irelia or vlad get too strong they will not simply be readjusted they will be nerfed into the ground and left there for extensive periods, especially if there will be any changes to their items that need to be looked at before compensation.

Azir and Lucian have already been balance problems more often than Vlad and Irelia.

Lucian has had abilities reworked several times. He comes into the meta with a vengeance when any item he can make use of gets tweaked.

Azir gets nerfed to the ground then surges in pick priority every few months. Its not because any one specific thing on him is too strong. Its because his kit is fucking retarded and needs to be scrapped and rebuilt entirely.

The junglers listed were based on riots own words. Morello's I believe. Nobody cares about gragas jungle. He was just another passing fad. You don't seem to understand the difference between a champ that is simply strong for whatever reason or opinion and a champ that is a balance nightmare.

Gragas has been in the limelight about as much as J4 and Lee Sin. If you think nobody cares about Gragas jungle, you must play with bronze/silver people who can't utilize him well. Passing fads aren't practically pick/ban every season at worlds, barring them getting gutted prior.

Gragas, at the very least, is a better example than Vi. He's been a competitive pick for more, and longer, periods, and isn't only meta when he functions as a tanky assassin vs squishies. Once Vi couldn't assassinate consistently, she was no longer relevant.

In addition, Gragas has been such a nightmare that he's undergone several reworks. I believe he is the 4th or so most reworked champion in the game.

Also, newsflash: Just because a Dev says something doesn't mean they are right. There isn't a science (at least not one that they're using) to balance. They use mostly opinions and assumptions. A lot of the time they end up wrong. They may be omnipotent when it comes to changing the game, but they are by no means omniscient, and they've shown this countless times. More often recently than in the past.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

{quoted}

Azir and Lucian have already been balance problems more often than Vlad and Irelia.

you cannot have balance problems unless riot gives you the opportunity to have them. That's like saying that Justin Bieber gets in more trouble than the BTK killer who is in prison and is thus worse than the BTK killer. But even worse than that, vlad and irelia represent 2 extremes that would become the model for a lot of stuff that makes champions like Lucian and azir acceptable existences though vlad was reworked recently. But they seemed to try and keep the general spirit of the champion which is extremely toxic to this game

vlad and irelia = toxicity azir and Lucian = overtuned at best

vlad and irelia literally violate design principle and cannot really be corrected without a full rework or butchering their kit to the point they aren't worth playing

azir and Lucian can be changed with ease. They took away one of azir's signature abilities.. just like that. They also cut one of his passives and made it a static thing. Lucian can just get changed whenever it seems.

Vlad and irelia are very rarely touched and when they are its usually indirectly or in direct response to an item they are heavily associated with.

Lucian has had abilities reworked several times. He comes into the meta with a vengeance when any item he can make use of gets tweaked.

Azir gets nerfed to the ground then surges in pick priority every few months. Its not because any one specific thing on him is too strong. Its because his kit is fucking retarded and needs to be scrapped and rebuilt entirely.

the difference being that they actually can manage these two even if it takes more than one try or if they just want to try something else just because they can. Vlad and irelia are a different story.

built in sustain sustain abilities designed to be immovable stall-out laners with way too many answers to way too many things (things like Lucian and azir for example)

Gragas has been in the limelight about as much as J4 and Lee Sin. If you think nobody cares about Gragas jungle, you must play with bronze/silver people who can't utilize him well. Passing fads aren't practically pick/ban every season at worlds, barring them getting gutted prior.

This is false, Gragas jungle has not been "practically pick ban" in every season at worlds. In 2014 he was banned once and never picked or played for the rest of the tournament.

I haven't found 2015 but you said every year

in 2013 he was pick ban in only 25% of games, again nothing terribly impressive, that just means he was viable once.

Even if he had been pick ban though that doesn't make him the sort of thing I'm talking about.

Gragas, at the very least, is a better example than Vi. He's been a competitive pick for more, and longer, periods, and isn't only meta when he functions as a tanky assassin vs squishies. Once Vi couldn't assassinate consistently, she was no longer relevant.

Gragas as an individual comparison to vi is irrelevant, that's why vi was part of a group.

vi competes a specific way with the other three. Gragas cannot replace vi in this respect even if she cannot assassinate for whatever reason.

In addition, Gragas has been such a nightmare that he's undergone several reworks. I believe he is the 4th or so most reworked champion in the game.

Gragas can be reworked though. Meanwhile a champion like shaco cannot seem to get his rework for years on end.

Also, newsflash: Just because a Dev says something doesn't mean they are right. There isn't a science (at least not one that they're using) to balance. They use mostly opinions and assumptions. A lot of the time they end up wrong. They may be omnipotent when it comes to changing the game, but they are by no means omniscient, and they've shown this countless times. More often recently than in the past.

Whether or not they are right is also irrelevant

This isn't about right or wrong, its about patterns brought about by perceived things and the false assumption that this pattern is driven primarily by simple bias.

I'd like to point out again, that it is actually a very healthy sign when a champ can actually be reworked instead of just sitting there.

First you rework what is healthy, then you adjust everything else.

For example, they got rid of force of nature and started getting rid of champion abilities that did something similar or punishing other forms of similar outcomes.

They also target ambient power. But first they had to define the problem and fix the original source which was MR itemization and hp that provided too much evasive utility among other things that helped extend the game into oblivion and keep mages boring even though they were appearing so often

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

you cannot have balance problems unless riot gives you the opportunity to have them. That's like saying that Justin Bieber gets in more trouble than the BTK killer who is in prison and is thus worse than the BTK killer. But even worse than that, vlad and irelia represent 2 extremes that would become the model for a lot of stuff that makes champions like Lucian and azir acceptable existences though vlad was reworked recently. But they seemed to try and keep the general spirit of the champion which is extremely toxic to this game

Both Vlad and Irelia have had just as much 'hot-time' as Azir/Lucian. Hell, more than Azir. You have things backwards.

Vlad and Irelia do not make Lucian/Azir acceptable in the same way that Kalista was not acceptable.

Vlad and Irelia got crushed by a lot of match-ups until HEY, GUESS WHAT. THEY GOT DIRECTLY BUFFED AND DIDN'T END UP BROKEN LIKE YOU IMPLY THEY AUTOMATICALLY WOULD. Both of their function later in the game was healthier than a lot of other champions that are not considered 'toxic'.

They are in no way extremes. In fact, I would love for you to point out how they are extremes so I can give you better examples that are deemed 'healthy'. Vlad and Irelia are docile compared to Lucian (who has already had a few reworks and has been a balance problem any time he's even remotely viable) and Azir (who has had half his kit removed in order to attempt to retain his broken kit, need I remind you).

vlad and irelia = toxicity azir and Lucian = overtuned at best

You have it so backwards its hilarious.

vlad and irelia literally violate design principle and cannot really be corrected without a full rework or butchering their kit to the point they aren't worth playing

How so? Do explain. I bet you can't, and whatever argument you try to bring up is easily shot down. Because you're actually wrong.

azir and Lucian can be changed with ease. They took away one of azir's signature abilities.. just like that. They also cut one of his passives and made it a static thing. Lucian can just get changed whenever it seems.

Azir is inherently broken to a degree much larger than Vlad for many of the same reasons as Vlad.

Lucian cannot be changed with ease unless you take so much out of his kit that he cannot function. He's pre-rework Ryze. He's absolutely busted on anyone that isn't garbage at the game.

Vlad and irelia are very rarely touched and when they are its usually indirectly or in direct response to an item they are heavily associated with.

Vlad was rarely touched because he was usually in a decent place where he wasn't broken, or so easily used that people defaulted to an easy ranged to laner, and spellvamp itemization wasn't terribly strong/weak compared to the past. Look at balance history and you'll see he's not as big of a problem as you're trying to make him out to be. He hasn't been touched due to itemization changes in a long time. Even with SotSW.

Then they reworked Quinn, which invalidates any balance arguments against Vlad in the past.

Irelia is actually touched relatively commonly. Pay attention. She's usually tuned independent of item changes, and hasn't once become broken because of it like you imply.

This latest case with TF might be the only example in the last 3-4 years you can pull up, and that's because they decided to buff her before they changed TF back to a decent state.

the difference being that they actually can manage these two even if it takes more than one try or if they just want to try something else just because they can. Vlad and irelia are a different story.

built in sustain sustain abilities designed to be immovable stall-out laners with way too many answers to way too many things (things like Lucian and azir for example)

You said sustain twice. Sustain isn't as hard to deal with as you think. Someone that out-ranges you is far worse to deal with.

Irelia isn't a stall-out laner. She's aggressive unless you're bad. The worse the match-up, the more aggressive you must be.

Irelia and Vlad get destroyed by both lucian and azir. Especially prior to Vlad's rework.

Azir is the definition of stall-out laner. Except his concept is so busted that, despite his weak early game, he can push the large majority of champions out of lane.

Lucian is essentially the same deal as Azir, but a tad less safe early with a lot more early power.

This is false, Gragas jungle has not been "practically pick ban" in every season at worlds. In 2014 he was banned once and never picked or played for the rest of the tournament.

2014 he was gutted prior to worlds.

I haven't found 2015 but you said every year

2015 he was pick/ban until a bug came up where he got disabled mid-tourny.

in 2013 he was pick ban in only 25% of games, again nothing terribly impressive, that just means he was viable once.

You realize how dismissive and poor your argument is right there?

Even if he had been pick ban though that doesn't make him the sort of thing I'm talking about.

Gragas as an individual comparison to vi is irrelevant, that's why vi was part of a group.

vi competes a specific way with the other three. Gragas cannot replace vi in this respect even if she cannot assassinate for whatever reason.

Except he is the sort of thing you're talking about. Look at all of their gank/teamfight patterns. Gragas matches it to a tee. Except more displacement, which, in many cases, makes him stronger. You still haven't tried pointing out why Gragas' pattern is invalid relative to the other 4.

Gragas can be reworked though.

Doesn't this invalidate pretty much everything you're saying entirely?

Meanwhile a champion like shaco cannot seem to get his rework for years on end.

Because he thematically fits, many players are satisfied with him, and he's one of the most unique champions in the game that takes a much different set of skills than many other champs.

Whether or not they are right is also irrelevant

It is though. If a company is consistently wrong, it shows in their product, as it is showing in LoL atm. This decreases satisfaction, as shown through LoL atm.

This isn't about right or wrong, its about patterns brought about by perceived things and the false assumption that this pattern is driven primarily by simple bias.

If Riot simply went back to attempting to tune things other than 15-20 champs at the top without changing the champion completely, a lot more people would be happier.

Regardless of personal bias, Riot HAS started negative patterns when it comes to handling their game.

Nobody can deny that there is clearly bias towards specific champs though.

I'd like to point out again, that it is actually a very healthy sign when a champ can actually be reworked instead of just sitting there.

Every champ can be reworked. If a champion doesn't need to be reworked (which is often the case, excepting things like poppy, sion, fiora), that's a much healthier sign.

What you just stated implies the game would be healthy no matter what, even with a champion that has a passive that deals constant damage to any champion he faces towards within 6000 units because hey, he can be reworked!

First you rework what is healthy, then you adjust everything else.

So let the game sit as a cesspool of un-balance while you needlessly change the things that don't need changing? Okay. Lol.

For example, they got rid of force of nature and started getting rid of champion abilities that did something similar or punishing other forms of similar outcomes.

Do you know what FoN did? No champion abilities did anything similar. It offered MS, MR, and the HP regen that Warmog's has, but even during combat.

Jesus Christ do you know what you're talking about at all?

They also target ambient power. But first they had to define the problem and fix the original source which was MR itemization and hp that provided too much evasive utility among other things that helped extend the game into oblivion and keep mages boring even though they were appearing so often

Are you still trying to talk about FoN? Because you clearly have no idea what was going on if that's what you're still trying to talk about.

You're very unclear as to what you're referring to a lot of the time.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

{quoted}

Both Vlad and Irelia have had just as much 'hot-time' as Azir/Lucian. Hell, more than Azir. You have things backwards.

Vlad and Irelia do not make Lucian/Azir acceptable in the same way that Kalista was not acceptable.

Vlad and Irelia got crushed by a lot of match-ups until HEY, GUESS WHAT. THEY GOT DIRECTLY BUFFED AND DIDN'T END UP BROKEN LIKE YOU IMPLY THEY AUTOMATICALLY WOULD. Both of their function later in the game was healthier than a lot of other champions that are not considered 'toxic'.

vlad and irelia are toxic

this is 99% independent of their winrate

the 1% is because the patterns in games they were winning contributes to why they would be considered toxic but the number or actual % of games is mostly irrelevant.

If irelia has a 1% or 99% or even a 50% winrate it would not change the fact she passively sustains and thrives by building heavy defense and just sitting in lane for an hour and a half farming on an ideal day. Vlad was no different. Each had more on top of this that Riot has learned from and no longer puts in champion kits

Lucian and azir on the otherhand, they will very probably continue to borrow from these much healthier kits like they explicitly stated they did with taliyah

They are in no way extremes. In fact, I would love for you to point out how they are extremes so I can give you better examples that are deemed 'healthy'. Vlad and Irelia are docile compared to Lucian (who has already had a few reworks and has been a balance problem any time he's even remotely viable) and Azir (who has had half his kit removed in order to attempt to retain his broken kit, need I remind you).

irelia's Q, borrowed and changed to fit other champs but never reused while azir's resembles the ori ball which is pretty much a handmedown design. Irelia's AS scaling W or conditional stun E. Both never used again directly. Lucians ult, perhaps a toned down version of irelia's ult was reused on Taliyah's Q.

When you deal damage to irelia or vlad they just heal it off and your decisions diminish in value, this goes back to the dev blog under "meaningful decisions" additionally sustain, free sustain especially, is the bane of combat game designers and yet it is also a great and powerful tool. You'll notice that for the past 5 years riot has been on a witch hunt for sustaining things slowly cycling these things out and trying to replace that power, they even decided to try and get rid of spellvamp finally according to them. As for dashes and walls, they are still pumping out more of these because they are not as toxic as these old designs that served as the prototypes for future concepts.

You have it so backwards its hilarious.

How so? Do explain. I bet you can't, and whatever argument you try to bring up is easily shot down. Because you're actually wrong.

Or because you're willfully blind. You also seem to think I really matters if I'm wrong or not. Which champions I add to the list aren't as relevant as the main concept itself. At the end of the day, they will stagger when its time to fix specific champs and they will cease this staggering when they find a reason to do so. They will continue to do things in response to semi-predictable events. The point is that they are not just randomly acting like little kids and just nerfing whatever they don't want played against their favorite champs

Azir is inherently broken to a degree much larger than Vlad for many of the same reasons as Vlad.

Azir's winrate is irrelevant Azir has some motive to engage you and this can be made more frequent simply by changing the range on his soldier commands. Azir has to pay a meaningful price to disengage from you. If it is not enough they can increase its value

Vlad's winrate is irrelevant Vlad does not ever really need to engage you, he can just sustain on minions forever and just avoid you forever. Diving him is unsmart to the point that a billion blinks and untargetable frames likely won't fix it, at least with azir there is some sort of hope, especially with his ult down. How do you end this? The answer is that all you can really do is just throw your face at him or his tower and hope you can tank long enough. Until then you are just stuck not even trying to have fun. At worse azir will just poke really hard but if you choose to engage him he isn't just going to so easily evade and undo any progress you make in a matter of seconds. vlad pays no meaningful price for what he does. He pays in hp to regain hp.

Lucian cannot be changed with ease unless you take so much out of his kit that he cannot function. He's pre-rework Ryze. He's absolutely busted on anyone that isn't garbage at the game.

he is changed frequently or is the target of itemization changes

he is also an adc which falls under another pattern not mentioned above, there is usually a particular set of adcs allowed to be particularly strong in bot lane in any given meta. Usually its 3 and a few counterpicks. This is very probably the result of perfect imbalance design strategies being employed seeing as these champs seem to be cycled through almost like its intentional.

Vlad was rarely touched because he was usually in a decent place where he wasn't broken, or so easily used that people defaulted to an easy ranged to laner, and spellvamp itemization wasn't terribly strong/weak compared to the past. Look at balance history and you'll see he's not as big of a problem as you're trying to make him out to be. He hasn't been touched due to itemization changes in a long time. Even with SotSW.

and whenever he did become strong the alarms went off and he was set back without much question. Usually with admittedly questionable changes.

Then they reworked Quinn, which invalidates any balance arguments against Vlad in the past.

Quinn was a problem and doing unexpected things, she was moved up in priority over the course of months and was reworked, she was only changed later so she didn't hose melees too hard with her Q. There was also fairly heavy demand for that rework

Irelia is actually touched relatively commonly. Pay attention. She's** usually tuned independent of item changes**, and hasn't once become broken because of it like you imply.

this is false, irelia is rarely tuned at all unless her itemization is causing some issues or I they got nerfed fairly hard

This latest case with TF might be the only example in the last 3-4 years you can pull up, and that's because they decided to buff her before they changed TF back to a decent state.

???

You said sustain twice. Sustain isn't as hard to deal with as you think. Someone that out-ranges you is far worse to deal with.

someone that outranges you is a balance issue that riot is willing to face and many game designers like to play with. Sustain on the otherhand, its like Pandora's box. That makes things very ugly especially whe there's no significant cost to sustaining. This is a very challenging thing that has ruined games before.

Irelia isn't a stall-out laner. She's aggressive unless you're bad. The worse the match-up, the more aggressive you must be.

currently yes, because riot learned their lesson back in season 2 and have been trying to get away from things like irelia and vlad ever since.

message is getting too long so I'm skipping some stuff.

2014 he was gutted prior to worlds.

You said every year

You realize how dismissive and poor your argument is right there?

there's nothing poor about my argument. But yes, your claim was clearly false so I dismissed it. You are free to claim it was a figure of speech if you like but he wasn't even pick ban in half of what you said and btw he was banned 2 times with a 43.8% winrate... not exactly impressive

Except he is the sort of thing you're talking about. Look at all of their gank/teamfight patterns. Gragas matches it to a tee. Except more displacement, which, in many cases, makes him stronger. You still haven't tried pointing out why Gragas' pattern is invalid relative to the other 4.Doesnt this invalidate pretty much everything you're saying entirely?Because he thematically fits, many players are satisfied with himhs one of the most unique champions in the game that takes a much different set of skills than many other champsIfacompanyconsistently wrong, it shows in their product, as it is showing in LoL atm. This decreasessatisfactionasshownthroughLoLatmIfRiotsimplywent back to attempting to tune things other than 15-20 champs at the top without changing the champion completely, a lot more people would be happier.

all debatable, part of why I went with the explicitly mentioned group

Regardless of personal bias, Riot HAS started negative patterns when it comes to handling their game.

sure

Nobody can deny that there is clearly bias towards specific champs though.

not in the traditional sense of "this is my favorite champ so I wont nerf cuz #biglcsplays"

Every champ can be reworked. If a champion doesn't need to be reworked (which is often the case, excepting things like poppy, sion, fiora), that's a much healthier sign.

you just have to pick your priorities. which isn't bias in the traditional sense but you can play semantics if you like. The point still gets across if you read.

What you just stated implies the game would be healthy no matter what, even with a champion that has a passive that deals constant damage to any champion he faces towards within 6000 units because hey, he can be reworked!

correct as long as a champ's changes can be afforded the game is still healthy in a sense but this can be inhibited, especially when you are on the clock and must choose your priorities and resource allocation wisely. I do not attempt to judge most of what riot actually chooses, I'm just saying it isn't simple traditional bias

dunkeroni3 votes

Things like this is why I love League. It will always be flawed, and it will never be perfect. But Riot as a company seems to be doing their best to make a game that evolves and that has a long-term goal and vision, while still looking out for their playerbase. And that's something I will happily support.

This was the top comment with 420 upvotes from the first link in your post. It was made 2 years ago. I wonder what happened to the community/riot that caused such a shift that we never see things like this any more. Is it enough to say that over time the community simply changed, or is it too much to say that riot must have changed something to so drastically change the community?

CerealBoxOfDoom2 votes

{quoted}

This was the top comment with 420 upvotes from the first link in your post. It was made 2 years ago. I wonder what happened to the community/riot that caused such a shift that we never see things like this any more. Is it enough to say that over time the community simply changed, or is it too much to say that riot must have changed something to so drastically change the community?

It is not so much that the community changed as it is the fact that sometimes when riot has a good idea they seem to find very weak support for it from a community that doesn't really appreciate anything other than simple changes

Riot: "hey look design principals"

players: "........................"

Riot: "... well what if we just nerfed fizz and pretend something will change"

players: "WUTTWUTT! PURTY OVUR HERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRE WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"

MrPharmD2 votes

I can't speak for what it used to be like. But what I currently see is this:

Rito: we doing this Players: but we don't like that please don't do it Rito: lelz doing it anyway

My guess to your question is probably that rito didn't use to do that before.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

{quoted}

I can't speak for what it used to be like. But what I currently see is this:

Rito: we doing this Players: but we don't like that please don't do it Rito: lelz doing it anyway

My guess to your question is probably that rito didn't use to do that before.

no, riot has always done this. Its nothing new.

They tried to do stuff to ahri once but the fancult backlash was so stronk they had to fix it unlike with duoqueue

LICENSED HOOKER1 votes

Valve used to do the same thing, then they realized they started losing money. Jagex on the other hand was too late and bled a lot.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

{quoted}

It wasn't really a dramatic change as much as a build up of errors that make it harder and harder to give riot the benefit of the doubt.

what build up are you referring to

ChargeItDownMid2 votes

[deleted]

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

{quoted}

So pretty much riot does play favorites. There are certain champions riot allows to be powerful and there are other champions that they will always keep underpowered.

more like there are certain ones they can afford and others they cannot. there are some they are capable of fixing with small patchups and others ride the wave when big change comes.

LatetotheRace1 votes

Here's a simply question. "First of all winrates. Lolking is not accurate, op.gg is probably even worse. Some sites have been known to be 1-10% off mkay?" Riot obviously has the data. yet the don't share it. Why?

But yea, if riot didn't play favorites, champions like Zed Trundle Lucian Fizz and Irelia would receive meaningful changes (Not buffs/nerfs, but core kit changes) to where they're more balanced and fair to play against at the very least.

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