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I Don't Know Why, But AP Junglers Seem To Struggle A Ton Right Now

ArnoldSchwarzens··34 votes·2,536 views

Just look at the win rate curve of all these champions: http://champion.gg/champion/Evelynn/Jungle http://champion.gg/champion/Fiddlesticks/Jungle http://champion.gg/champion/Fizz/Jungle http://champion.gg/champion/Diana/Jungle

And probably the worst of them all: http://champion.gg/champion/Nidalee/Jungle

The only AP Champions who seem to be unaffected are Elise and . . . AP Shaco? Wut?

I honestly have no real idea where this is coming from, I can just come up with some shaky theories.

Maybe it's the fact that Machete got buffed while Talisman stayed the same or the fact that the EXP change from the Raptors somehow affected these guys even more than others. When it comes to Shaco I have no clue at all, I guess they overbuffed his AP version with the assassin rework. Fucking AP Shaco in the Jungle with a 53% win rate, this is the last thing I expected. Preseason bois.

People say that only Fiddlesticks is struggling but it seems to be a trend with literally every champion that uses Runeglaive and is an AP Jungler.

Did the balance team take notice of this? What can we expect in the future?

38 Comments

Sire Hippington8 votes

I think machete and raptors xp actually have a decent impact on that, combined with the camp changes. The Jungle is now FAR more singletarget focused with buff camps no longer haveing the little buddys. This means the sustain from item 1039 is cut down to 33% compared to last season on buffcamps, while machete, which as singletaget item already has an advantage with those changes, was buffed. And even krugs, which was meant to be nother camp for aoe, doesn't work to well with talisman as ther are not many monsters at the same time, and the small ones die so fast that the dot can't really drain any life from them. Now raptors, the last remaining camp that really favours aoe, has lost some xp, so talisman junglers got fucked over once more...especially as it's in a quite convinient spot for junglepathing. Also, the loss of Strength of the Ages did hit squishy junglers quite a bit, makeing them far more vulnerable.

Though the biggest impact has talisman vs machete. Diana with talisman start has 47.18%winrate, with machete she has 59.54% (though the sample size is very small and probably not a true reflection of how effective machete is on her) However, not starting talisman causes big mana issues for most ap champs, so even if they go machete it's not ideal.

Titanium701 votes

There is no reason to start talisman right now (Fiddle is another story =P).

You get the talisman passive anyway after earning 650G for the time between you have Blue.

Shadow Hazard2 votes

talisman actually gives higher sustain than machete even now. Most champs have between 50-56 base damage at about .65 average attack speed so that nets an good average scenario of 3.64 health returned per second single target verses talisman at least 5 health back per second. The moment there is more than one camp that difference becomes staggering.

The AoE camps are absolutely mauling all the primarily single target champs while the AoE champs are in an actually better state than that the single target champs for their early clears in terms of damage efficiency, and sustain.

The issues in the OP's post are other issues and frankly machete needs a further buff considering the jungles gneral state.

Ackelope4 votes

Ekko jungle hasn't been doing great either. (though I'm not sure how long he hasn't been doing well for) Do people still consider Ekko jungle a thing? I mean, I still play it, do relatively well over half the time and don't really get any flak for it.

SirHeavyScrotum1 votes

No he's been a bad jungler since they nerfed his base damages and buffed his ratios. His base stats just result in a slow and unhealthy clear now.

DJ Lucio1 votes

I beg to differ His clears are meh, but his ganks are superb if timed

morris11 votes

Now that Ekko's passive no longer slows the tank Ekko build is dead, there's no argument against reverting the passive cooldown so he can at least clear jungle camps better.

MrryZ1 votes

His first clear is pretty terrible now with his base stats and the crippling passive time nerf.

Kr1sys4 votes

I can mainly speak on shaco, but, AP Shaco is anomaly, it's damage is better than its AD counterpart due in part to a terrible rework of his Q and Passive and the bugs that came with it https://youtu.be/CPjXoOxoAgg

Players like myself that have mained Shaco are the best ones you'll find, it required on old Shaco to really work around the terrible implementation of his abilities, interactions and such, and now they've fixed some of the issues as a result we're playing him without the usual problems. The people that played Shaco, and are still playing Shaco are the majority of Shaco players. People don't pick Shaco on a whim. Not to toot my own horn, but I've played Shaco regularly since S3, and I just got my first penta in ranked with him by playing AP.

AP Shaco's clearing ability is awful. Worse than AD Shaco, which really required Tiamat to be effective. It has no wave clear, no camp clear, and focuses simply on taking kills and ganking.

His E was a really good buff on the slow component, while it does almost no damage it was what made AD shaco several seasons back a really good early jungler.

Right now, AP simply is the better build, everything Shaco does now scales of AP, and his damage is somewhere near a 70/30 split with magic/physical, so it doesn't surprise me that the highest win % will be AP because it's capitalizing off his new scaling.

YFisfabulousBRUH1 votes

I want AD shaco to be a thing again.......

Kr1sys1 votes

{quoted}

I want AD shaco to be a thing again.......

I play AD on Shaco if we're heavy on AP, but typically I can still get away with going AP, the utility you get from his scaling AP(R Damage and W duration) are huge and lends more to his capability than just being able to either deal that damage through abilities or autos.

PapaGreg212 votes

Fizz and Diana's primary role is not in the jungle so I don't think it's a big deal for those 2 as they are fine at mid. Fiddle is more because his kit can't deal with the new camps. Evelynn just needs a rework and Nidalee probably needs to be buffed.

rtbf761092713 votes

Diana has 3 sources of aoe and a shield, and a way to wall hop to other camps at lv6. She is definitely a jungler, much more so than fizz. I checked that stats and 40% of her games are in jungle.

Fizz jungle win rate was low even before the preseason just because he is definitely not supposed to be there. But diana totally can be, I think it's ridiculous to say she shouldn't jungle

PapaGreg211 votes

I said Diana's primary role is not jungler. Please don't change my words into claiming that I said Diana SHOULD NOT jungle just to fit the narrative of your argument. She is at a 55.13 play rate mid lane according to champion.gg and 37.71% play rate in the jungle. This information does nothing but back up what I am saying in that jungle is not her primary role so that it shouldn't be a priority to need to balance her in the jungle to boost her secondary role.

HazyCloud72 votes

I think the fact that she has near 40% play rate in the jungle absolutely makes it a priority to ensure she remains at least decent in the jungle.

PapaGreg211 votes

37% in that position. I think the fact that she has a 0.9 percent play rate in the jungle is such a small number that her win rate is going to be wildly skewed too high or too low because such a small number of people play her there. She could very well be 55 percent next week depending on how the games went for the small group deciding her win rate.

HazyCloud71 votes

You could very well say the same thing about any champion with a low play rate, thinking about it like that none of them will ever receive a nerf or buff.

Look at the win rate on people with 125+ ranked games. 48%. Overall win rate. 46%. Diana's not very good in the jungle and it has little to do with her play rate

PapaGreg211 votes

I am sure the people at Riot are breaking their backs to try to balance a secondary position for a normally balanced champion where they are played at a 0.9 percent play rate. I'm glad that they aren't trying to nerf or buff champion's in their secondary roles because it would definitely unbalance their primary roles and create chaos. This game gets unbalanced enough just them juggling primary roles. Maybe if she's "not very good in the jungle," as you say, people shouldn't expect to play her there and win many games.

I don't know what you are trying to argue at this point other than just arguing for the sake of it. What exactly do you want Riot to do about Diana? You can't buff her or her laning will be too strong. You can't buff Runic because it's already strong.

Leeerzeichen2 votes

-abyssal nerf (changed from one of the last ok-ish ap items to just another bad item) -protobelt nerf (same as abyssal) (-rylais nerf, yay) -jungle feels a lot harder to clear -> hp & especially mana problems (especially when behind) -no mana on blue buff smite -bad reworks

Those are my thoughts from playing 1 Evelyn, 1 Fizz, 1 Elise and ~22 Diana games.

DarkRitual1 votes

With more single-monster camps, auto-attack and spellspamming junglers perform much more strongly.

TheHappyReaperz1 votes

Then why is Eve doing badly?

Karn Bishop1 votes

Thats more so because riot beat her into semi death, terrible hp, terrible armor, terrible mr, much lowered starting damage on Q, ect ect. There is a reason eve can only jungle with atk dmg reds, armor yellows, AP blues, and AP quints; because nothing else works due to how terrible all her other stats are.

Erockandroll4 votes

{quoted}

Then why is Eve doing badly?

I think Eve just has the same problem she always had, and the assassin update didn't address it. But it seems like Riot is convinced that she is unhealthy when viable.

Riot isn't going to pay too close attention to Fizz or Diana, as they are mainly balanced around being laners. So it's really Eve, fiddle, and Nidalee that you should focus on. Riot already said they were looking into Nid, (they seem to think that SoA was the main culperate) Fiddles should be easy to balance, but I rather gave him something a that is a little more team focused. Allow fiddle a strategic position in a team comp, instead of just a drain mage.

Leetri2 votes

Does Gragas count as an AP jungler? Even though he builds tank most of his damage comes from his spells that deal magic damage. Either way, Gragas seems to be doing pretty bad as well. People with 125+ games played with him have a 27.9% win rate, isn't that about the chance of winning with an AFK on your team?

Arkilusal1 votes

Personally, from what I've seen of Eve stat&kitwise, she doesn't seem like she was ever meant to jungle, and with her low sustain and durability I'd think the only real reason she'd work is basically kiting the jungle mobs and using the AOE on her Q. Given the analysis Don Cingulum provided, I'd imagine she falls under the 'screwed via talisman dependant junglers'. That said, I also keep trying Eve in Lane instead of going into the Jungle so I might not have the best view of what's up with her.

jadelink1 votes

She seems to jungle just as well as she used to. You have to really understand her (and kite camps at low lvls) and her routes and gank paths. I am intrigued by the fact that she dropped slightly in 5.22 (as expected for someone with delicate pathing issues early game, till you learn your way around the new jungle), BUT, she then drops more heavily in 5.23... and I simply can't figure out why this should be...

I know she suffered the way that all non colossus junglers did, but that was in 5.22

jadelink1 votes

Amumu is doing fine withe runeglaive still. Fiddle is in for buffs from the pbe. Fizz was always a questionable jungler at best, after stopping tank fizz from shredding people, and his rework seems to suit laning more than jungling.

Nid got crapped on by the lvl 1-3 difficulty with the stronger jungle camps, and the fact that she misses the old keystone as she cant use CoC.

I am actually at a bit of a loss to tell why diana fell so much though... Losing the keystone is fine for her, since her pull activates the new and rather strong CoC.

EDIT: aah, now i see someone has an explanation, the machete buff, well, Di might be fine, just needs to start runeglaive, and she is often built with a good chunk of AS runes due to her 3hit.

I'm interested by Evelyns performance the most. She falls slightly in 5.22, but a much bigger one in 5.23.... so it can't just be the new jungle and items. Anyone else who plays her want to offer some theories? I find she still works pretty much as she always did, as the early ganks you prefer give you time to recover mana and hp (sometimes via scuttles).

DJ Lucio1 votes

Her clears don't feel as strong in my opinion to when i'm playing someone else

Hell, I can clear faster with Sion rather than Eve

RavenMagus1 votes

It might have something to do with the new Krugs cheese. AP junglers don't clear those nearly as fast at level 2, which means AD junglers have a much easier time doing the level 3 Red->Krugs->Gank cheese. By the time AP junglers finish Krugs the laners have had time to at least get to level 2; Lee Sin and others can get there faster than that.

Nogrim1 votes

i dunno so much about the ap champs but i know jungle has been awful for me with out the smite buffs. krugs stun was a gamechanger for most of the chars i play.

actually i really miss a lot of the jungle smite buffs, wolves vision, raptors see invis were situational but man i miss having them as options to go and harvest when they were needed.

loosing that stun on Shyvana/rammus etc has made their ganks gutless imho. its like riot was on a crusade last season and this preseason to destroy any play style/role i started to enjoy after giving up soraka as a support main due to all the adc trolls.

YFisfabulousBRUH1 votes

SAME

Blackstone011 votes

Let's be honest here, Evelynn isn't just an AP jungler, she is also an AD jungler and jungle tank. She has a lot of build paths open since all of them are fairly equally crappy.

Dracocrash1 votes

Fizz is not a jungler.

paisy1 votes

So Ekko isn't a jungler either?

Dracocrash1 votes

I can play twitch jungle, but that doesn't mean twitch is a jungler.

Garlic Butter1 votes

Lux and Karma disagree with you, after level 2 their clear speeds and health remained capped, karma has great burst movespeed to though is no AP hecarim.

Erdamon1 votes

Don't forget Rumble http://champion.gg/champion/Rumble/Jungle , from a steady 49~50% win rate he's also dropped like a rock to ~46% this patch

LF Annie1 votes

a decent part being that ad jgls are faster at clearing and blue side red>krugs>bot is an insane strat atm.

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