This is NOT how you fix Jungle

Eedat·Apr 28, 2018·38 votes·12,133 views

> https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/MQob4lFt-upcoming-jungle-changes-for-810

I am fine with getting rid of the 3 camp level 3, but this is NOT how you do it. Instead of making changes that promote jungle diversity, you are further alienating the less popular jungler and practically enforcing a meta where only the highest tier jungler can perform well. These changes are going to make it so only the champions who have a chance at contesting a Graves or Kha at scuttle are going to be viable.

Just nerf XP from the first spawn of the camps. The thing people are complaining about is getting level 3 before solo laners. After level 3, junglers fall off a bit back to the normal 1-2 levels behind solo laners (under normal circumstances). THAT is what people complain about. THAT is what people wanted fixed. Please please PLEASE don't do this. Don't give the shaft to every jungler that already struggles early.

27 Comments

AzadetheApr 28, 20189 votes

This is what I posted in response to their post:

Give us back Tracker's knife and I'd agree to the compromise.

Junglers are starving for vision right now, and their entire "lane" is the entire map. Aka......

-Tops/Adcs/Mids can't ward jungle because they need to protect their lane. -Supports can't ward jungle because they have to wait until 10:00 for auxilery wards.

-Junglers lost Trackers or any source of extra wards. Even if they take Poro or Zombie wards, at best they can cover 2 regions at a time, and there are at least 4 paths per dimension in which to invade a jungler.

And now you're taking scuttle vision from half the map, so Warwick can yolo early Drakes even more, because Bot simply doesn't have access to wards anymore, and neither do junglers.

I absolutely hate playing Jungle now and I used to main it. I'm constantly invaded by 1-2 players on the other team, and there's no actual vision options to prevent it. Can't tell you how many times an opposing mid has left lane to parameter my jungle while the other jungler pincers the other direction, especially fast clearers with lane domination like Yasuo

DW DianaApr 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

This is what I posted in response to their post:

Give us back Tracker's knife and I'd agree to the compromise.

Junglers are starving for vision right now, and their entire "lane" is the entire map. Aka......

-Tops/Adcs/Mids can't ward jungle because they need to protect their lane. -Supports can't ward jungle because they have to wait until 10:00 for auxilery wards.

-Junglers lost Trackers or any source of extra wards. Even if they take Poro or Zombie wards, at best they can cover 2 regions at a time, and there are at least 4 paths per dimension in which to invade a jungler.

I agree and miss it badly, but zombie ward does help.

And now you're taking scuttle vision from half the map, so can yolo early Drakes even more, because Bot simply doesn't have access to wards anymore, and neither do junglers.

I absolutely hate playing Jungle now and I used to main it. I'm constantly invaded by 1-2 players on the other team, and there's no actual vision options to prevent it. Can't tell you how many times an opposing mid has left lane to parameter my jungle while the other jungler pincers the other direction, especially fast clearers with lane domination like

Being invaded is a compounded problem. When you invade someone, you always put a ward down to watch for the enemy jungler. You take a camp or two then run and when you see them come for their camps, you tend to rotate to their other side and invade there. The only advice I can give it be fast to rotate, and counter invade. NEVER fall for the trick of "He took my ratpors, and I need some gold. I'll just force a gank..." Its a trick, it won't work, and while you're wasting your time trying to gank having been pinged out ages ago, he's invading you again!

AzadetheApr 28, 20182 votes

My problem with Zombie ward is:

YOU MUST TAKE DOMINATION.

Electrocute builds fall off in long/late games. And, what about tank junglers, who start out defensively weak, who don't take domination.

That's why I don't Electrocute Evelynn . Her late game excels to Phase rush, which helps prevent her from becoming irrelevant.

There are a ton of Precision junglers as well who lack major reasons to take Domination, but do better with Resolve, or Sorcery.

(It also means not taking eyeball collection)

Second part:

I generally know the play, but some junglers by DESIGN can't handle that. There's no speeding up an Evelynn Clear, a an active mid/top counter ganking system literally prevents her from both farming her own side AND from farming theirs. I've actually had a Talon mid time my buffs, AND theirs, and from level 4-6 I literally had no jungle, because Eve doesn't have speed, and Talon literally ulted> wall jumped> erased me after setting me back 4 levels. If I invaded the other jungle, he'd just do the same there.

There are just insane situations where you can do nothing to salvage your role, except become a second support. ( item 3098 can be used by Evelynn .

Not every champ is Hecarim Khazix MasterYi Warwick and can get around the map and clear camps fast. Some have unavoidable slow early games where a 2-3 man counter jungle has no counterplay other than warding.

DW DianaApr 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

My problem with Zombie ward is:

YOU MUST TAKE DOMINATION.

Electrocute builds fall off in long/late games. And, what about tank junglers, who start out defensively weak, who don't take domination.

That's why I don't Electrocute . Her late game excels to Phase rush, which helps prevent her from becoming irrelevant.

Tbh I run phase rush on Nocturne too with ult hat and pressence of mind for those sweet ults xD

There are a ton of Precision junglers as well who lack major reasons to take Domination, but do better with Resolve, or Sorcery.

They also tend to be the best able to duel. e.g. Shyvana

(It also means not taking eyeball collection)

Never really worth it. Even when I play Diana or Talon mid I take Zombie Ward. It's just more useful then 30 AP / 15 AD

Second part:

I generally know the play, but some junglers by DESIGN can't handle that. There's no speeding up an Clear, a an active mid/top counter ganking system literally prevents her from both farming her own side AND from farming theirs. I've actually had a mid time my buffs, AND theirs, and from level 4-6 I literally had no jungle, because Eve doesn't have speed, and Talon literally ulted> wall jumped> erased me after setting me back 4 levels. If I invaded the other jungle, he'd just do the same there.

Tbh Eve can start Raptors, get red and Krugs and then gank which ever side she's on at 3, though tbh in her case most people tend to wait until 6 unless ganking top (I would look to invade at this point as most junglers will be on gromp now and either low or aiming for a gank on you toplane). She also has a massive advantage with invading/ganking/counter ganking after 6. She just has to wait until that point. There are points both in your jungle and in river which allow you to see both exits/entrances to jungle if you wanting to defensively ward, though I tend to aim to have wards inside their jungle instead.

There are just insane situations where you can do nothing to salvage your role, except become a second support. ( can be used by .

Eve is one of those junglers that will never be as consistent as Warwick , but imo Hecarim Khazix MasterYi are in the same boat.

Not every champ is and can get around the map and clear camps fast. Some have unavoidable slow early games where a 2-3 man counter jungle has no counterplay other than warding.

Warwick builds item 3077 to gain a decent clear, Hecarim Khazix MasterYi might clear faster than Eve, but it's not as healthy either.

BeersteinApr 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MOV5Yz1c,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-28T19:02:58.480+0000)

Tbh I run phase rush on Nocturne too with ult hat and pressence of mind for those sweet ults xD

They also tend to be the best able to duel. e.g. Shyvana

Never really worth it. Even when I play Diana or Talon mid I take Zombie Ward. It's just more useful then 30 AP / 15 AD

Tbh Eve can start Raptors, get red and Krugs and then gank which ever side she's on at 3, though tbh in her case most people tend to wait until 6 unless ganking top (I would look to invade at this point as most junglers will be on gromp now and either low or aiming for a gank on you toplane). She also has a massive advantage with invading/ganking/counter ganking after 6. She just has to wait until that point. There are points both in your jungle and in river which allow you to see both exits/entrances to jungle if you wanting to defensively ward, though I tend to aim to have wards inside their jungle instead.

Eve is one of those junglers that will never be as consistent as , but imo are in the same boat.

builds to gain a decent clear, might clear faster than Eve, but it's not as healthy either.

Bit slower for me on the tiamats too since I like to pink ward lvl 1, but that's my own fault.

Also "Reduce early lane pressure from junglers" You mean when your laners don't ward? This is actually why I buy pink early, to protect my laners who don't ward. Beyond lvl 3 though I get outscaled pretty hard by solo laners, and if I try to gank but laner decides he doesn't want to help, it's a free kill for enemy because I'm WEAKER than the laners, I'm their support. IDK how nerfing jgs early is going to help at all.

"Increase the number of jungle v. jungle interactions in the early game"

Jesus, the only reason there are none is people don't push for it, not that it isn't viable. I'm always in the enemy jungle early which triggers them to also always try to be in mine, it's a war. The ones that don't go in either direction are "I want to play safe" people. But an experienced jungler will force the opponent to come out.

"Reduce mana restraints as a hard blocker for champions that want to jungle"

They keep saying this but keep ignoring Amumu, at this point I don't believe it anymore. There's optimal pathing where he can jungle at okay speeds, but he sure can't expect to gank without running out of mana halfway into the gank AND kill jungle minions.

Scuttler change is dumb, some JGs simply aren't equipped to contest it. The strong clear healthy junglers like Warwick will just be that much stronger. Also, yes I play him, as a jungler I'd be dumb not to right now, he's the best pick when you get first pick and don't want the enemy to be capable of counter-picking you.

Disclaimer: I'm pretty low ranking, and I'm sure this is much harder at higher ranks as lanes would be much more reactive to jungle invades higher up. Where I'm at the lanes will rage at a jungler for not ganking while the enemy lane+jungle is ganking their jungle. A lot of people at my rank refuse to even acknowledge that ganking the jungle is a thing, even while their jungler is repeatedly ganked by lanes.

DW DianaApr 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Bit slower for me on the tiamats too since I like to pink ward lvl 1, but that's my own fault.

I do this too. On Noct I tend to get a couple of daggers and a couple of control wards.

Also "Reduce early lane pressure from junglers" You mean when your laners don't ward? This is actually why I buy pink early, to protect my laners who don't ward. Beyond lvl 3 though I get outscaled pretty hard by solo laners, and if I try to gank but laner decides he doesn't want to help, it's a free kill for enemy because I'm WEAKER than the laners, I'm their support. IDK how nerfing jgs early is going to help at all.

Laners not warding IS an issue, but hopefully this will start to force them to do it more. I main Malz mid and I ALWAYS ward. In fact on my first back with him I always pick up a control ward too!

"Increase the number of jungle v. jungle interactions in the early game"

Jesus, the only reason there are none is people don't push for it, not that it isn't viable. I'm always in the enemy jungle early which triggers them to also always try to be in mine, it's a war. The ones that don't go in either direction are "I want to play safe" people. But an experienced jungler will force the opponent to come out.

Jungle should be a war tbh. This was always going to be the season of counter jungling, what with zombie ward, and now it's just getting more important. Those that do it well will naturally win out.

"Reduce mana restraints as a hard blocker for champions that want to jungle"

They keep saying this but keep ignoring Amumu, at this point I don't believe it anymore. There's optimal pathing where he can jungle at okay speeds, but he sure can't expect to gank without running out of mana halfway into the gank AND kill jungle minions.

Can't comment because I have never played Amumu

Scuttler change is dumb, some JGs simply aren't equipped to contest it. The strong clear healthy junglers like Warwick will just be that much stronger. Also, yes I play him, as a jungler I'd be dumb not to right now, he's the best pick when you get first pick and don't want the enemy to be capable of counter-picking you.

Again, it will depend on what you prioritize. Personally if I see it's up in bot side, and I know my opponent started their bot side, I'll ward river go straight to their top side the second i see them on it, take whatever I can, and use my second ward. If he decides not to get it then I will. Either way I'll end up ahead anyway. It will be down to individual tactics, like when I play against a shyvana I ALWAYS invade her at her 2nd buff. Her first clear is SO painful it's basically a free kill. Eve on the other hand i clear then invade dropping a ward so I can see her when she starts taking camps even post 6 (If I'm a post 6 nocturne I tend to delete her at this point too lol).

AzadetheApr 28, 20181 votes

I'm sorry for heavy handing Eve into my examples. I'm just using her as a strong example.

You're talking about just waiting until 6 to counterjungle with Eve, btw, Has it occurred to you that when mid is counter jungling with his Jungler, You are level 6 on Eve when Mid is level 10 and the other jungler is level 8, and the entire map is covered with wards already?

Non move speed junglers can't compensate jungle hard camp.

DW DianaApr 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I'm sorry for heavy handing Eve into my examples. I'm just using her as a strong example.

You're talking about just waiting until 6 to counterjungle with Eve, btw, Has it occurred to you that when mid is counter jungling with his Jungler, You are level 6 on Eve when Mid is level 10 and the other jungler is level 8, and the entire map is covered with wards already?

Yeah I assumed you were an eve main. But that swings both ways. Sometimes your mid will have priority, sometimes theirs will. It's about knowing how to mitigate that. Again krugs is worth more gold and Exp then the buffs and is rarely a priority clear for most junglers.

Non move speed junglers can't compensate jungle hard camp.

Again it's not move speed. It's healthy clearing and good decision making. I Suppose it might mean those that take waterwalking and celerity will have a SLIGHT advantage, but then they're also losing out on two runes for that privilege. It's up to you what you value more much like zombie ward.

AzadetheApr 28, 20181 votes

I'm not...... I play about 30 different champs from Top to Support.

And.... you don't seem to realize that 2-3 laners constantly invading your jungle also means they steal Krugs, wraiths etc, or worse, ward them, and when you go there, so do they.

The game I'm using as an example, I wasn't just ganked at buffs. I was ganked at both buffs, Krugs, and wolves. All Talon had to do in lane was to clear a wave with one skill, and then go back to anti jungling.

There is no such thing as good decision making when your opponent has 1700 range worth of leaps or a persistent 30-40% move speed boost, when you are a champ that has nothing in their entire kit that can stop them at that point in the game. You seem to think champs are balanced. lmfao.

DW DianaApr 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I'm not...... I play about 30 different champs from Top to Support.

And.... you don't seem to realize that 2-3 laners constantly invading your jungle also means they steal Krugs, wraiths etc, or worse, ward them, and when you go there, so do they.

I've been playing jungle since I started league. In that time I have only had what you are describing happen once during laning phase and that was due to my laners feeding hard at which point the game was pretty much over anyway.

The game I'm using as an example, I wasn't just ganked at buffs. I was ganked at both buffs, Krugs, and wolves. All Talon had to do in lane was to clear a wave with one skill, and then go back to anti jungling.

I feel your pain, but as the changes have yet to happen I think it's a little early to say this will be the norm, or even more likely.

AzadetheApr 28, 20181 votes

You're also Silver III. Go watch some high elo games :)

It starts happening very frequently in Gold, especially when Boosters are selling end of season services to boost accounts. Plat + it's frequent as hell.

DW DianaApr 28, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You're also Silver III. Go watch some high elo games :)

I watch about 5 every day, ranging from jungle to mid and top (don't really have any interest in adc or support).

It starts happening very frequently in Gold, especially when Boosters are selling end of season services to boost accounts. Plat + it's frequent as hell.

I get that it happens, but I also get that it happens on both sides. It's like people complaining on bot lane when people roam from mid and kill them and get their opponents ahead. They always forget all the times their own laners have done the same thing for them.

AzadetheApr 28, 20181 votes

It's nothing like a lane destruction. Lane destructions don't invalidate your entire farm capacity, XP, or ability to even enter your own territory. Instead of farming at the Tier 2 Tower, you begin farming at a Tier 1 tower, and get ganked less because the objective they wanted is already down.

If they steal your jungle like this, on many champs there literally is no recovering, because their kits are not lane farming kits, and to do so, you literally have to steal cs from laners.

Also, If you lose your jungle:

You also lose drakes.
You lose most of your control over warding a baron.
You're facing a team that is 3-4 levels ahead of you.
You're facing up to double the people...... with your buffs and theirs.

Losing an outer turret does nothing like that.

VelasanApr 28, 20183 votes

{quoted}

This is what I posted in response to their post:

Give us back Tracker's knife and I'd agree to the compromise.

Junglers are starving for vision right now, and their entire "lane" is the entire map. Aka......

-Tops/Adcs/Mids can't ward jungle because they need to protect their lane. -Supports can't ward jungle because they have to wait until 10:00 for auxilery wards.

-Junglers lost Trackers or any source of extra wards. Even if they take Poro or Zombie wards, at best they can cover 2 regions at a time, and there are at least 4 paths per dimension in which to invade a jungler.

And now you're taking scuttle vision from half the map, so can yolo early Drakes even more, because Bot simply doesn't have access to wards anymore, and neither do junglers.

I absolutely hate playing Jungle now and I used to main it. I'm constantly invaded by 1-2 players on the other team, and there's no actual vision options to prevent it. Can't tell you how many times an opposing mid has left lane to parameter my jungle while the other jungler pincers the other direction, especially fast clearers with lane domination like

Well that's pretty much the best strat right now. Pick a big duelist jungler and run around the map with no vision and kill whoever you run into then take objectives. Enemy team can't see where you are to stop you. Also works on Udyr and Lee and Kha'zix.

AzadetheApr 28, 20181 votes

I utterly hate it. I can Play Udyr, but I'm nowhere near as good with him now as I was with Season 4.

They just gutted the crap out of his W, and many champs now counter him much easier now that the game is abundant of slows everywhere, and they can survive longer vs his Q.

I used to destroy MasterYi with Udyr, but now,..... even Udyr pretty much has become like Nami in that respect:

Both Udyr and Nami are a game of Chicken with Yi: If you open with Bear or Bubble, Yi will meditate and screw your rotation on Udyr, and Yi will kill you before Bear can activate again, or as with Nami, if you Bubble, he will Alpha Strike so that it misses. But if you don't throw Bear/Bubble, He'll just auto attack you to death because his damage scales faster.

Udyr used to counter Yi all day long.....

Udyr's got so bad, that I can literally Nami and outrun him the entire game...... without buying shoes!

AirKingNeoApr 28, 20187 votes

Maybe keep 3 camp level 3

Just makes it take longer to kill camps.

And make camps respawn faster.

(So basically I'm saying do what the rank 1 junglers Tarzaned and Silas have said to do)

HügöApr 29, 20182 votes

The problem with making camps harder to kill will enforce a meta of junglers with inbuild sustain.

DW DianaApr 28, 20183 votes

It's not really going to make that much difference tbh. It'll make champions with a healthy clear that can do the whole jungle better, while making champions who take a couple of camps then gank (because more clearing will get them low) less viable. Champions like Rek'sai, Nocturne and Diana will find these changes are fine and be all the stronger for it. This will slow the games down well allowing less early gank heavy champions a chance to come back, while not destroying all the early gankers chance to be impactful. Also you want a way to be able to fight a kha and graves, get the damned scuttle. Aim to have backed just before it spawns or path towards it once it does. If it's the other side of the map then invade and punish them there instead. Kha and Graves tend to have what I think of as sloppy clears anyway, leaving things like Krugs and Raptors (which gives more xp and gold then any of the other camps including buffs) until after they have their buffs, leaving you free to snap them up. This will just add another thing for them to prioritize leaving their jungle open to invades.

As always jungle will evolve and those that adapt fastest will do the best.

mack9112Apr 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MOV5Yz1c,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-04-28T17:48:56.877+0000)

It's not really going to make that much difference tbh. It'll make champions with a healthy clear that can do the whole jungle better, while making champions who take a couple of camps then gank (because more clearing will get them low) less viable. Champions like Rek'sai, Nocturne and Diana will find these changes are fine and be all the stronger for it. This will slow the games down well allowing less early gank heavy champions a chance to come back, while not destroying all the early gankers chance to be impactful. Also you want a way to be able to fight a kha and graves, get the damned scuttle. Aim to have backed just before it spawns or path towards it once it does. If it's the other side of the map then invade and punish them there instead. Kha and Graves tend to have what I think of as sloppy clears anyway, leaving things like Krugs and Raptors (which gives more xp and gold then any of the other camps including buffs) until after they have their buffs, leaving you free to snap them up. This will just add another thing for them to prioritize leaving their jungle open to invades.

As always jungle will evolve and those that adapt fastest will do the best.

I 100% ageee

VelasanApr 28, 20183 votes

Wasn't it catch up EXP combined with when the camps spawn that led to the gank heavy strategy we see now? In the past camps took a long time to respawn and you didn't have this stuff like with the krugs where you have to sit there for 20 seconds just trying to clear them all as they break into smaller krugs.

Confusing to say the least because that's why they made the original changes. They said they wanted JG's to gank more and not just farm.

Well, they got that. Here we are. This is what it looks like.

CoffeeAndSadnessApr 28, 20182 votes

they are fucking up the game very bady and making awful desicions. fix karma you useless bunch of retards

AzadetheApr 28, 20181 votes

While at the same time, if a jungler doesn't have a level advancement, they simply can't gank.

And then there's the fact a lot of junglers only succeed in a blue clear after red, because they leveled before then ( Nidalee Evelynn for example, either have mana issues by this point, or HP, or both ; Nid especially. Eve's passive at least carries her through it even though her mana is shot at that point)

saltranApr 28, 20181 votes

In first place they should had never listened to ones that were crying about junglers being able to gank early.

And no, I'm not a Jng main but imo jungle was fine being the strongest role in the early.

Dope SoloApr 28, 20181 votes

Again, and I'm sorry to remind you, if rito cared about your player experience they would have asked for your input before making the changes.

SergeantScuttlerApr 28, 20181 votes

Even as a laner, removing two scuttler as an option takes away some skill element in terms of planning when to take it before obj, reducing snowballing by at least taking scuttler near baron etc., using it correctly for roams/invades. It makes the game less interesting by far. They should never get rid of that imo.

FilDaFunkApr 29, 20181 votes

It is if you want to make it more exciting to watch at, say, an LCS event.

TheGreatNinxApr 29, 20181 votes

I feel like it's nice change but it feels like it's missing whole lot more changes that would need to go with it but without other big changes it's horrible . Just adding this gimic isn't going to solve anything but create more problems and PBE is the worst place to test this change since you get less communication in their then you do a SoloQ game or Professional game. What riot should do is what they did with the Irealia, invite junglers to test this out. I'm not 100% sure what is the correct changes to follow up these rift scuttle changes but it feels like it's missing one massive change to make this change gucci and succeed in every part of the goals they had with these changes.