Riot can you please just admit that AP scaling utility was a failure and stop nerfing Lulu for it?

TheLittlestLulu·Mar 22, 2016·112 votes·4,200 views

Once again you guys have demonstrated that you don't care at all about support Lulu, because you are once again giving her a blanket nerf over her solo lane role. Lulu has AP ratios on her whimsy for no good reason, and because they are AP ratios they benefit her solo lane vastly more than her support role, but you guys insist on constantly nerfing it in ways that equally effect her support role.

Scaling utility has done absolutely nothing good for this game. You guys could have just completely deleted the AP ratios from Lulu's whimsy for the same effect as these current nerfs on her solo lane, but no that would be admitting that a mistake was made so let's fuck over support Lulu again and cut down the duration of it, again.

This is the third nerf that Lulu has gotten to her whimsy that directly effects her support role.

51 Comments

TheLittlestLuluMar 22, 201612 votes

I don't know why I even bother. It's just gonna be another thread that Riot will completely ignore.

KharjaiMar 23, 20163 votes

All they care about is money anymore. If they keep up with this anymore, they can say bye-bye to getting any more money out of me.

PledgieMar 23, 20162 votes

call them out on twitter. thats the method i am currently doing with nidalee. not sure if it will work or not but asking them for context is usually what gets the foot in the door.

RyzeReworkMar 23, 20161 votes

Because riot doesn't balance around lower elo lulu has an overloaded kit that has been strong for a long time

A OceanMar 23, 20166 votes

Not like I want to burst your bubble, but in LCS Lulu has been pick/ban for over half a year because of her strong solo laning...

RyzeReworkMar 24, 20161 votes

im just here to farm the downvotes lel, my point is is that she does have these problems and she is a problem so shes getting nerfed thats the point

XeynidMar 23, 20163 votes

That's not at all the issue here.

This thread is about the fact that riot added AP scaling to lulu's utility in a widespread attempt to give Supports a meaningful "Late Game Power Fantasy", but didn't realize that this could lead to some problems. Specifically, that scaling is more helpful to solo laners than supports.

The reason this is affecting Lulu and not other supports is because other supports are either too easy to kill in lane (like sona) or are too useless in a solo situation (like braum) for them to work in a solo situation anyways. Lulu doesn't have either of those drawbacks (due to good range, reliable cc, and an actual escape of some kind), which means she can both work in a solo situation and benefits far more greatly by soloing than supporting due to her scaling.

PledgieMar 23, 20161 votes

woh i just installed fek and your gif i giggled out loud

MandaariMar 23, 20169 votes

Maybe realize that there are deeper problems? IMO it's all about sharing a resource. Supports with solo lane money are strong because they're balanced around not having significant enough gold income to buy any substantial AP. When they have that gold income they go crazy. TBH I really like supports being able to go (somewhat) crazy. I have zero interest in being a walking pile of active items riding on abilities that do well because they don't need gold to function.

PokladnicaZlaMar 23, 20162 votes

That's why I love getting supports on ARAM it just fun and awesome to see utility have such high values when going full AP.

NahuiMar 22, 20164 votes

Nami has utility ratios and is just fine. It's just they loaded so much utility into Lulu's kit that it doubles as fantastic solo capabilities. Honestly removing Pix's barrage is what I think needs to be done. It's there simply to breed lane Lulu.

Sir YamazukiMar 22, 201614 votes

{quoted}

Nami has utility ratios and is just fine. It's just they loaded so much utility into Lulu's kit that it doubles as fantastic solo capabilities. Honestly removing Pix's barrage is what I think needs to be done. It's there simply to breed lane Lulu.

Nami is just fine despite those ratios because she's not being played in solo lanes. It's stupid to give scaling utility on supports anyways, they don't build much ap and historically they tended to build tanky/cdr and utility items which provide 0 or very minimal ap. Ap ratios only benefit them if they go in a solo lane. if Nami somehow became a popular mid laner with a standard ap build her nerfs would probably be to her base utility as well which would hurt her support role. Just look at Nami's most common build, the only AP she ever buys is from fqc or Zeke's.

NahuiMar 22, 20162 votes

I think the idea is to give them incentive to build AP and not go tank so that there's some support diversity, so giving AP ratios for utility promote at least some AP building, however that often goes overboard when it comes to solo lanes. However, if you took Nami solo lane, she would not perform nearly as well as Lulu simply because Lulu was overloaded with utility, unlike Nami. It's high base values along with AP empowered autos along with scaling utility that gives Lulu such an advantage in lane. I think lane Lulu would be gone if Pix's barrage just wasn't a thing. I think the rest of her scalings are about fine.

PartholonianMar 22, 20166 votes

{quoted}

I think the idea is to give them incentive to build AP and not go tank so that there's some support diversity, so giving AP ratios for utility promote at least some AP building

Yeah, I agree with that. Janna Nami Sona Soraka all see significant reward to their ability to help their team when they build AP, sometimes even enough to make up for the massive risk of not building defenses when you're also 2 or more levels lower than everyone trying to kill you. And, in fact, so does Lulu ; it's just that she can get a lot MORE gold to build AP with in a farming role than a non-farming role.

Personally I would probably have chosen to nerf glitterlance damage so that it's less effective waveclear while still being good utility in a duo lane or a teamfight. But support Lulu probably wants to spellthief harass so that's still going to affect her there too.

Most champions have the same 4 spells whether they're in a solo lane or a duo lane; Lulu has the same 6 spells, but the principle is the same. It's only when you get into non-self-castable helpful spells like Soraka TahmKench Thresh or "me AND my buddy" spells like Taric Sona that you can really focus someone on helping others and not have them default to helping themselves.

SpecterVonBarenMar 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, I agree with that. all see significant reward to their ability to help their team when they build AP, sometimes even enough to make up for the massive risk of not building defenses when you're also 2 or more levels lower than everyone trying to kill you. And, in fact, so does ; it's just that she can get a lot MORE gold to build AP with in a farming role than a non-farming role.

Personally I would probably have chosen to nerf glitterlance damage so that it's less effective waveclear while still being good utility in a duo lane or a teamfight. But support Lulu probably wants to spellthief harass so that's still going to affect her there too.

Psst. Reduced damage to minions. Hurts farming but not harass.

blacksky33333Mar 24, 20161 votes

Psst. Reduced damage to minions. Hurts farming but not harass.

It's exactly what i suggest for lulu ;and for zilean too. Riot create is own demons . Watch grave jungle with a free knockback on aa , what is this atrocity!

LwntMar 23, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Nami has utility ratios and is just fine. It's just they loaded so much utility into Lulu's kit that it doubles as fantastic solo capabilities. Honestly removing Pix's barrage is what I think needs to be done. It's there simply to breed lane Lulu.

The reason why nami is fine is because she doesnt have waveclear, which lulu has with her Q. Due to that she is getting nerfs all over her kit.

moomoomilkUwUMar 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Nami has utility ratios and is just fine. It's just they loaded so much utility into Lulu's kit that it doubles as fantastic solo capabilities. Honestly removing Pix's barrage is what I think needs to be done. It's there simply to breed lane Lulu.

Reomving Pix's barrage? Why would I play ADC Lulu anymore?

Ariel the CruelMar 24, 20161 votes

Why would you play her AD in the first place? At least go hybrid, man!

SpecterVonBarenMar 23, 20161 votes

Because Nami doesn't have Lulu's auto attack enhancer or Q for waveclear. That's literally the only reason we've never seen solo lane Nami, because she can't farm for crap.

MeriipuMar 22, 20164 votes

They left out the ult nerf so I am sortof fine with this I guess even though I will miss the extra movespeed during stuff like urf

I just do not understand why all these AD assassins are not receiving any significant nerfs

I mean I mostly play mid and top butthat does not invalidate my opinions

Saeko24Mar 23, 20162 votes

{quoted}

They left out the ult nerf so I am sortof fine with this I guess even though I will miss the extra movespeed during stuff like urf

I just do not understand why all these AD assassins are not receiving any significant nerfs

I mean I mostly play mid and top butthat does not invalidate my opinions

Which AD Assassins are you actually talking about? Zed... and?

Athenes LuluMar 22, 20162 votes

Lulu support hardly ever use W ally cast, polymorph is too good of a spell to be wasted on a shitty movespeed boost, so I don't see the problem. You should be glad that they actually let that -5% utility scaling through, though it should've been scrapped and thrown into the trash can completely.

She doesn't need any "compensation buffs". She only requires people to stop playing like idiots, and I'm pretty sure you know that too.

I doubt the current nerfs would even do anything to solo Lulu's pick rate, if at all. It's the unnecessary safety that she gets for granted, not just the W ally cast crap. But hey, it is so much fun watching it in action, so I even doubt anything's even gonna happen. But do realize that she doesn't need any of the "compensation buffs".

magee101Mar 22, 20162 votes

The problem I have with lulus in general is that Support lulu tends to A) decide to be a solo laner and split push or B) only use her utility on herself in teamfights so I just hate Lulu. I've never seen a good midlane lulu in ranked so I really can't say much about her laning abilities beyond that she's an annoying little yordel!

Athenes LuluMar 23, 20161 votes

Because they just assume "same champ, so same playstyle, right?"

It's like your typical low-elo Kalista, a lot of them don't know what they're even doing.

blacksky33333Mar 23, 20162 votes

Utility scaling on AP is a good thing for squishy ap supp , just nerf waveclear to hell , lulu and zilean can do it with just one Q spell that no acceptable, in other hand you have nami that you never see midlane... Nami (btw don't give more than 50%ap ratio for dmg spell).

Ariel the CruelMar 24, 20161 votes

zilean can do it with just one Q

To be fair. Zilean's Q is pretty much half his kit. ;p

tXQbsPrjN5Mar 23, 20162 votes

lol meddler admitting he's wrong. Might as well just kill him right now.

A Dizzy LuluMar 23, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Brandon Heat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MIwxlXNV,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2016-03-23T12:42:32.598+0000)

lol meddler admitting he's wrong. Might as well just kill him right now.

Where?

LuciferMar 23, 20161 votes

It wasn't Meddler who decided to do the AP scaling utility shit, it was Morello and the balance team way back in season 3-4. It's not just Lulu. Nami, Janna, Sona and Soraka (before they completely changed her kit) all had massive AP ratio nerfs to compensate for utility scaling buffs. All this has ended up doing is repeated nerfs to these champions, and making them feel incredibly weak, even when building AP. I'm still amazed we just don't give them regular AP damage and just reduced damage to minions, if Riot is so fucking afraid they will be terrors in solo lanes.

Dominick DestineMar 22, 20161 votes

Affect*

Packun FlowerMar 22, 20161 votes

People are complaining right now how mages are in a bad spot right now and blah blah blah.

Supports are in such a terrible spot far worse then mages that no one wants to do it.

Every time I play support Lulu I fall behind in levels. Everyone on my team and the enemy team hits level 7 and i'm still level 5. I also find Lulu's lane damage to be already lackluster. I'm no Lulu pro but I have been [laying her a lot lately, and honestly laning with her feels really mediocre so I don;t know why Riot continues to nerf her.

Baron PerenoldeMar 23, 20161 votes

I disagree, her laning can be downright oppressive against melee supports. And if the enemy bot lane lacks any sustain or ways to mitigate your poke, it can be a living hell for them.

Riot just needs to nerf Glitterlance's damage to minions and lower the amount of health her ult grants on self-cast, but in return it should give a little more to allies.

PartholonianMar 23, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron Perenolde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MIwxlXNV,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-03-23T07:35:12.523+0000)

I disagree, her laning can be downright oppressive against melee supports. And if the enemy bot lane lacks any sustain or ways to mitigate your poke, it can be a living hell for them.

Riot just needs to nerf Glitterlance's damage to minions and lower the amount of health her ult grants on self-cast, but in return it should give a little more to allies.

Nerfing damage to minions could actually make it better as a harass tool as a support; you'd do just as much to enemy champions but push the lane less. I like it.

The idea of giving her ult reduced value on herself specifically seems kinda, I don't know, artificial? Maybe instead they could make it scale partly with the max HP of the recipient (in a way that made it weaker on squishies including herself, but stronger on tanks, compared to live). This would make her less about protect the Kog and more about beefing up an actual frontline champion and keeping people from getting away from them (i.e. more of a juggernaut enabler).

Baron PerenoldeMar 24, 20161 votes

I like your ult suggestion, it would make her very scary when paired with juggernauts as you said.

DealthMar 22, 20161 votes

Wait I'm confused? How is gutting her scaling hurting her ability to support?

Does any one even know what they are talking about any more...

TheLittlestLuluMar 22, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Wait I'm confused? How is gutting her scaling hurting her ability to support?

Does any one even know what they are talking about any more...

You should probably work on your reading comprehension before you claim somebody doesn't know what they are talking about.

DealthMar 23, 20161 votes

You realize that utility also hopes solo laners too right?

Athenes LuluMar 23, 20162 votes

Just over a little speedboost that Lulu supports won't find as practical as her polymorph.

The duration nerfs sounds fair enough, though the OP is more concerned about if Riot is even "doing what they should be doing".

magee101Mar 22, 20161 votes

It's not the scaling gut they are complaining about, it is the duration reduction. They would prefer the scaling to be removed, but keep the utility in tact

The Yetii RiderMar 23, 20161 votes

If Riot removed the AP scaling entirely lane Lulu will just be gone, and lane Lulu is very effective at defending carries from assassins, so she's kind of needed in this meta.

Krys StarMar 23, 20161 votes

Solo Lulu was prominent before her utility ratios became a thing, so I don't know about that.

The Yetii RiderMar 23, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frozen Sovereign,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MIwxlXNV,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2016-03-23T02:01:26.999+0000)

Solo Lulu was prominent before her utility ratios became a thing, so I don't know about that.

Yeah but pros have gotten very used to playing against her. Any significant nerf may be enough to edge her out

GhiefelsteinMar 23, 20161 votes

And why is that a problem? Solo Lulu does not have to be always viable in the pro scene, only when her strengths are needed. But before this patch she was always a safe pick.

LwntMar 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If Riot removed the AP scaling entirely lane Lulu will just be gone, and lane Lulu is very effective at defending carries from assassins, so she's kind of needed in this meta.

It wasnt meant for solo lulu in the first place. It was suppose to help support lulu to scale her utility to late game which it didnt work because they used the expensive Ap stat. But it work out for solo lulu and now riot keeps nerfing her to balance her solo lane which also affects support lulu.

KetiaXMar 23, 20161 votes

At least they took out her ult nerf. Still don't get the duration nerf on her Whimsy though, I thought nerfing her scaling would be enough.

SpecterVonBarenMar 23, 20161 votes

They need to just knuckle up and make a new stat called (For example) Utility Count or UC and adjust everyone to have utility ratios and place UC points on items like Frozen Heart, Mikaels Crucible, and the support items. This would make balancing mages that go bot and supports that go mid/top easier since they'd have to choose between itemizing for damage for trading and clearing minions or increasing their UC so that they are more valuable to their team.

Further, if they put UC on the more cheap support items then getting gold is less important since it isn't like AP items that are expensive and require solo lane gold to acquire. This could also open up new item possibilities as they could make items that give some AP or AD but mostly UC for those that want to help their team.