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The only decent thing about scuttle change is that junglers now know what it feels like

Tychusfindlay918··51 votes·13,175 views

to truly fall behind their counterpart and spiral downwards.

Look at top lane. If you lose the lane and give up a kill (which would kind of be the top lane equivalent of losing a scuttler) you're presented with two scenarios.

#1 Your champion can effectively counter the enemy pick and so you can hopefully rebound by playing somewhat safe

#2 Your champion does not counter the enemy pick or even worse is countered by the enemy pick, you will now have to hug your turret for 5 years and miss half of pretty much every wave while the enemy laner establishes a massive lead on you with which they can use to control the top side of the map for easily 10 or so minutes of the game barring a given bot lane snowballing out of control.

Before junglers could just do whatever they wanted with impunity. Gank a million times? Take a camp and see your exp restored. Dont wanna deal with enemy jg? Just play PvE in your own jg and if a ward spots him just avoid him and play PvE elsewhere even if for a slight but not catastrophic loss in exp or gold advantage.

That being said, yes, the scuttle change is awful because there are probably way better changes to make t accomplish the goals riot set out for the scuttle change. But it's nice to see junglers truly feel what it's like to TRULY fall behind.

The fact that there are people being upvoted saying to completely revert the jungle changes so junglers can go back to their cancerous ways of permaganking top or bot lane and never truly falling behind in exp is fucking insane.

50 Comments

MorganFreemanBot39 votes

Uhm.

Junglers, traditionally, have always had extremely hard fail cases.

Shit, in seasons 3 to 5 they had the hardest fall behind in the game, bar none.

While having your enemy laner shut you down and shit down your throat sucks, and will leave you woefully behind, you both technically have the same 'amount' of gold and experience walk into the lane, over the course of the game, as every other laner. So you have the opportunity to have just as much gold as anyone else, but you can be denied that via being zoned / killed / forced to back at the right times, ect.

The problem with jungler's falling behind, one which had occured heavily in the past and has now returned, is that they're handicapped from the get go. When you factor in respawn times, the amount of gold and experience in the jungle is smaller than that in lanes. This is part of why junglers have traditionally needed to buy items which gave them MORE gold and / or experience from the jungle.. because it's weaker to begin with.

This deficit has, historically, made it incredibly rough for a jungler to fall behind. You start off with less farm potential than anyone else on your team. If you dare fall behind you're punished via respawn times (further chewing into your gold and experience per minute), being behind on your gold / experience generating item (again, chewing into the g / exp per minute), And enemies can literally take your CS; which is twice as damaging as just losing it to a tower because not only are you denied the gold and experience, but your enemy gets it.

Historically, again, this led to one totally unrecoverable scenario: The 'losing' jungler would be behind in every conceivable way. Massively down in levels, massively down in gold, and with the gap only widening due to how jungle camps respawn (the slower you clear the slower they respawn, meaning that your clear tempo directly effects your gold and experience per minute). It all mixed together to make one gigantic tidal-wave of liquefied awful which was all but impossible to escape from.

The S7, and subsequently S8, jungle was designed specifically to counter this.

Junglers could fall behind in gold more easily due to less gold and farm in the jungle, but they would NOT fall behind in levels. This result in junglers having at least one way to keep make and remain (relatively) on par with laners. Obviously a heavily denied Shyvana would lose in a 1v1 with the super fed Darius on the enemy team, but the historically massive 3+ level gap between them would only begap of one - or at ABSOLUTE most 2 -, so she could still do SOMETHING.

But, of course, people bitched.

So now we've come full circle. The jungle is once again a poor gold source and lack-luster experience source. Junglers are forced to live and die by the gank, because if you don't get some successful ganks and start popping off, you are going to fall incredibly far behind in every imaginable way... The exact same type of problem we spent three fucking seasons trying to get away from.

Congratulations bois, we've managed to dial the jungle systems back to S3, and then make them even worse than they were back then.

Battalion2 votes

{quoted}

Uhm.

Junglers, traditionally, have always had extremely hard fail cases.

Shit, in seasons 3 to 5 they had the hardest fall behind in the game, bar none.

While having your enemy laner shut you down and shit down your throat sucks, and will leave you woefully behind, you both technically have the same 'amount' of gold and experience walk into the lane, over the course of the game, as every other laner. So you have the opportunity to have just as much gold as anyone else, but you can be denied that via being zoned / killed / forced to back at the right times, ect.

The problem with jungler's falling behind, one which had occured heavily in the past and has now returned, is that they're handicapped from the get go. When you factor in respawn times, the amount of gold and experience in the jungle is smaller than that in lanes. This is part of why junglers have traditionally needed to buy items which gave them MORE gold and / or experience from the jungle.. because it's weaker to begin with.

This deficit has, historically, made it incredibly rough for a jungler to fall behind. You start off with less farm potential than anyone else on your team. If you dare fall behind you're punished via respawn times (further chewing into your gold and experience per minute), being behind on your gold / experience generating item (again, chewing into the g / exp per minute), And enemies can literally take your CS; which is twice as damaging as just losing it to a tower because not only are you denied the gold and experience, but your enemy gets it.

Historically, again, this led to one totally unrecoverable scenario: The 'losing' jungler would be behind in every conceivable way. Massively down in levels, massively down in gold, and with the gap only widening due to how jungle camps respawn (the slower you clear the slower they respawn, meaning that your clear tempo directly effects your gold and experience per minute). It all mixed together to make one gigantic tidal-wave of liquefied awful which was all but impossible to escape from.

The S7, and subsequently S8, jungle was designed specifically to counter this.

Junglers could fall behind in gold more easily due to less gold and farm in the jungle, but they would NOT fall behind in levels. This result in junglers having at least one way to keep make and remain (relatively) on par with laners. Obviously a heavily denied Shyvana would lose in a 1v1 with the super fed Darius on the enemy team, but the historically massive 3+ level gap between them would only begap of one - or at ABSOLUTE most 2 -, so she could still do SOMETHING.

But, of course, people bitched.

So now we've come full circle. The jungle is once again a poor gold source and lack-luster experience source. Junglers are forced to live and die by the gank, because if you don't get some successful ganks and start popping off, you are going to fall incredibly far behind in every imaginable way... The exact same type of problem we spent three fucking seasons trying to get away from.

Congratulations bois, we've managed to dial the jungle systems back to S3, and then make them even worse than they were back then.

Thank you for saving me the effort.

Ayame Isaki1 votes

Exactly this.

z63XnLCMwX19 votes

When a jungler comes to lane to catch up on cs - "report jg for trolling. stealing my cs" When a laner comes into jungle to steal camps/scuttle - "chill jg I need to catch up"

Yup. I won't agree with this change until they make camps only to be damaged by champions with a jungle item with the exception of Nashors, Dragon, and Rift.

VICHEL CHAOS21 votes

When I see a laner taking my camps I automatically assume that I can take their minions and smite their cannons, so no worries from that side. If they complain about it, muted.

Salson2 votes

This is pretty much SoloQ for every role, just take everything and ignore complaints.

Spicy Rice6 votes

Look man, if you haven't done gromp a single time in 15 mins, I'm gonna take it if i need to

VICHEL CHAOS2 votes

Look man, if you have missed 10 cs in 15 minutes, I'm gonna take those if I need to. You don't want to annoy the guy who can mute you, completely ignore your lane and just come over to smite your cannon minion and leave :)

Spicy Rice5 votes

You mean what junglers already do to top laners?

Xonra1 votes

I can have perfect CS and my jungle still comes top, fails HARD on a gank and smites my Cannon. Most of them in fact. So what is different about this exactly?

IainG101 votes

[{quoted}](name=VICHEL CHAOS,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MFt9zY1i,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-05-28T20:53:01.756+0000)

When I see a laner taking my camps I automatically assume that I can take their minions and smite their cannons, so no worries from that side. If they complain about it, muted.

And vice versa as a laner, but I always let them make the first move, and I will forgive people a little bit if they do it after the laning phase...

Shin Gouki2 votes

The issue top lane at least is a lot of times junglers will shove the wave without actually pushing it to tower. For example maybe theres a 2v2 top lane and my jungler gets a double kill but I die. If the jungler shoves one wave out but doesn't shove it to tower when I walk back to lane I now have to either finish shoving it to tower in which case I usually get ganked while doing so or wait while my opponent freezes or if he can't do that wait until it slowly bounces back. In this case my only option is to give up cs or get ganked due to a decision my jungler made. This is the only time Ill go take gromp or krugs.

woodvsmurph2 votes
  1. Especially in low elo, but not only there: junglers (and players in general) don't have a clue about minion wave manipulation. So taking cs in a lane results in... now you set up a slow push to my opponent - after they got a lead off ganks and now I'm frozen out of cs for the next 2 min and can only hope to soak xp if their jg leaves me alone. Taking a jg camp once in a blue moon? Not the same effect.
  2. One camp is generally left untouched by jg at many elo's due to pathing inefficiency. Thus it should be literally no issue if a laner takes it... because by the time jg wanders over 3 min after they last took it, it will be back up.
  3. Junglers too often afk farm w/o even attempting a gank when near a lane despite having the health, sums, and decent setup of the lane to pull off a good gank. Because they believe wrongly that farm efficiency is more important. Map pressure is more important. You take a whole 10 sec longer to get to your krugs... but you pick up a kill AND NOW you can 2v1 or 3v1 invade the enemy jg and force HIM out of the camp he'd started and take it for yourself... plus still have your krugs up... just as an example. You don't win by afk farming for 20 min; you win by ganking better and still keeping relevant in farm.
  4. Did the party earn that cs (laner or jg)? Have they been playing well, pressuring the map, helping their teammates? It could be as simple as wasting the enemy jg's time by forcing him to camp your lane for no gain.. in order to keep you in check. It could be a pair of really great ganks/counter-ganks to salvage a losing lane or snowball an even lane in your team's favor.
  5. Did you do most of the work but the other guy got the kill(s)? Then they shouldn't also take all the cs or jg camp.
  6. Is there something more relevant to be realistically doing on the map right now? Like are you throwing away a dragon for free by farming toplane? Are you losing baron to grab a few cs mid? Are you farming a jg camp while your team loses a tower because they need you to teamfight? Could you realistically get to and change the outcome in said scenarios?
KennysDreamGirl17 votes

I mean, hes not wrong. junglers actually get punished now

lolipopevelynn6 votes

{quoted}

I mean, hes not wrong. junglers actually get punished now

ya, getting punished because only 1 scuttle crab exists on the map at one time and that cant be taken because you picked Amumu and the enemy jg picked XinZhao is cool

D357R0Y3R3 votes

And? if you outscale him as amumu there's a tradeoff currently there is no trade off because balance around scuttle has not been made which is why in next patch they're going to nerf xin's late game to make him only good in early

Tychusfindlay9186 votes

{quoted}

ya, getting punished because only 1 scuttle crab exists on the map at one time and that cant be taken because you picked Amumu and the enemy jg picked XinZhao is cool

the amumu argument is the same as whining when you pick wukong into darius top lane or something.

If you pick a purposefully weak early game champion, guess what, YOU WILL BE PURPOSEFULLY WEAK EARLY GAME. The same exact shit holds true top lane.

Dry your tears some day.

Leto GT6 votes

It doesn't mean you'll get behind in gold automatically. You can play nasus into Darius, bait him to push/manage the wave and farm under turret. You may lose some cs, but you won't get behind in levels. In jungle, there's no turret to help you. Also, the "cs" are damaging you, so there's another source of damage involved - not only your opponent. Because of that, weak early junglers would plan to avoid any interaction until mid game at least - that's where was the outplay because don't think ppl would just let an amumu farm his jungle easy.

Hence, picking a champ with weak early in lane and in jungle are two different things.

Tychusfindlay9183 votes

[{quoted}](name=wG Got2Cool,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MFt9zY1i,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2018-05-29T00:14:52.129+0000)

It doesn't mean you'll get behind in gold automatically. You can play nasus into Darius, bait him to push/manage the wave and farm under turret. You may lose some cs, but you won't get behind in levels. In jungle, there's no turret to help you. Also, the "cs" are damaging you, so there's another source of damage involved - not only your opponent. Because of that, weak early junglers would plan to avoid any interaction until mid game at least - that's where was the outplay because don't think ppl would just let an amumu farm his jungle easy.

Hence, picking a champ with weak early in lane and in jungle are two different things.

"bait darius"

If you're going to assume the darius is a retard then you must assume the xin zhao into amumu is a retard so amumu can pull off great things.

More likely than not, baiting darius requires a chunk of your hp as a sacrifice, and it isn't sustainable for too long. Nasus is essentially forced to give up a lot of CS gold if he doesn't want to put himself in a position to die. I'm assuming at least diamond+ gameplay here, not bronze bullshit where nothing counters nothing.

Durzaka2 votes

The difference is you can play a countered lane conservatively. You can be defensive, grab what farm you can, and wait until you can make your play to use your advantages.

You cant just play conservatively in the jungle, because that simply means you fall behind with no advantage to work with. The enemy jungle gets ahead, and can gank freely and do whatever he wants. So instead of having one person with an advantage (in the Wu vs. Darius match up for example) you have potentially 4 people with an advantage.

long story short, Junglers do not have the fallback mechanics and systems in place that laners do to deal with situations like this. So all this situation does is make any jungler that isnt a strong duelist absolute hot trash in the jungle.

DeathBurst1 votes

You cant just play conservatively in the jungle,

Yes you can? Ward, check the enemy pathing, and adapt to it?

So instead of having one person with an advantage (in the Wu vs. Darius match up for example) you have potentially 4 people with an advantage.

Yeah, because TP plays don't exist, that's true. Or roaming Mid from Top. Or swapping lanes.

long story short, Junglers do not have the fallback mechanics and systems in place that laners do to deal with situations like this.

They don't have the same mechanics, but they do have some fallback patterns still. Fallback patterns that just got changed with the last patch, and you now have to re-learn, but they still exist.

DeathBurst1 votes

Thank you. I tried making this argument before in other threads, and no one listened. I feel less alone now...

Leverette6 votes

I'm not trying to be rude, I just sincerely wanna clear this up. Are you basically saying, "I'm glad that the snowball meta is spreading even harder and rendering even more people completely useless?" Because I've gotta say, I'm not for it. Why punish and torment players for Riot's willingness to allow powercreep to continue persisting? Why do junglers "Need to know how it feels"? Is it that important that the rest of the world have to share in your torment? Why not do away with your torment rather than spread it to others? I would rather see powercreep stifled and camps be worth taking. If camps aren't worth much, that means junglers are forced to gank more in order to close the exp gap. But if camps are worth a lot, then Riot is allowed to reduce overall payout from ganks, relieving pressure off both the laners and the junglers because ganks aren't forced to happen so much. As it stands now, one specific playstyle is being forced upon an entire role, effectively doing away with farm junglers and making sure only heavy gankers and duelists remain, making everyone more miserable for it.

Skorch1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not trying to be rude, I just sincerely wanna clear this up. Are you basically saying, "I'm glad that the snowball meta is spreading even harder and rendering even more people completely useless?" Because I've gotta say, I'm not for it. Why punish and torment players for Riot's willingness to allow powercreep to continue persisting? Why do junglers "Need to know how it feels"? Is it that important that the rest of the world have to share in your torment? Why not do away with your torment rather than spread it to others? I would rather see powercreep stifled and camps be worth taking. If camps aren't worth much, that means junglers are forced to gank more in order to close the exp gap. But if camps are worth a lot, then Riot is allowed to reduce overall payout from ganks, relieving pressure off both the laners and the junglers because ganks aren't forced to happen so much. As it stands now, one specific playstyle is being forced upon an entire role, effectively doing away with farm junglers and making sure only heavy gankers and duelists remain, making everyone more miserable for it.

First off he said the change was bad. So saying he was completely willing for the change is incorrect.

Secondly a metashift =/= powercreep. Meta junglers arent suddenly doing more damage than they did 3 seasons ago. They are just meta. The Meta sucks. But it isnt "powercreep" Ill give ya snowbally though. Thats correct.

And IMO the jungle sucks right now, i hate it, you absolutely cannot play off-meta in the jungle.

Leverette1 votes

{quoted}

First off he said the change was bad. So saying he was completely willing for the change is incorrect.

Secondly a metashift =/= powercreep. Meta junglers arent suddenly doing more damage than they did 3 seasons ago. They are just meta. The Meta sucks. But it isnt "powercreep" Ill give ya snowbally though. Thats correct.

And IMO the jungle sucks right now, i hate it, you absolutely cannot play off-meta in the jungle.

  1. He did say the change was bad, but he also seemed to portray the suffering of junglers as a good thing. That's what I was targetting.

  2. When I say powercreep, I'm referring to the fact that everyone oneshots everyone nowadays, creating snowballs.

  3. My reference to the meta changing to early powerhouse junglers would not be a problem at all without point #2 inflating the issue.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

And IMO the jungle sucks right now, i hate it, you absolutely cannot play off-meta in the jungle.

Its not true. Unless you play at high elo (when i say high elo, mean high diams).

ForFoxSakes4 votes

No if junglers fell behind in the past then they're unable to invade or fight the other jungler and have super shitty ganks.

Now they just die when they try to gank being 2+ levels down, and now lose their entire jungle to the other jungler when they get a scuttle or 2. Laners can still absorb exp while under turret or have other laners/jg come gang bang, but how often do you see a laner going to help the jg? =next to never bc "muh cs" so fuck you junglers

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

Thinks you need to learn as lane work. Cause when your behind ennemy laner will just freeze then dive... at for top.

but how often do you see a laner going to help the jg? =next to never bc "muh cs" so fuck you junglers

low elo issue. but thanks to this patch mid laners are more aware of their role (of helping jng).

ForFoxSakes1 votes

you mean "helping" their jungler take scuttle to jack it for themselves. the exp and gold it gives is significant enough that laners want it too

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

No, i don't. Its same with jngler camp, u don't steal it. So they're no reason to do same, unless the jungler is on the other side of the map.

IainG102 votes

I tend to throw some CC or other ability for the jungler (if there's no risk of accidentally stealing the camp) if I happen to be walking past them, but I'm also a Support Main, so that might be why....

Sun Wu Ryuumoku3 votes

As Toplaner i like this patch, im not at jungler mercy all the game for no reason. And i can 1v2 if i played properly. Its over the lv2 vs Lv3 (sometimes was lv1 vs lv3). ennemy gank mid lv2... cute but most mid are range. mid is even less snowbally than top btw.

As Jungler i like this too. On previous patch if you didn't Buff > camp > buff > gank/cover top it was same as trolling. Now most junglers are lost cause they can't use same pathing every game without though (and cause most junglers are bad junglers tbh). Im a MonkeyKing player, my pick is weak during early, weak for dueling... but guess what most Wu mains make him work with no issue (cause we're used to play an underchamp contrary to most metaslaves).

Mid laner just became aware of their role [sg-miss-fortune] Its was already their, to help jungler to secure scuttle.

Most think losing scuttle mean you lose, but its wrong. Its same as ever, if you want to win you need to win lanes (mean you need to gank or/and control map/jungler).

Yeah Graves is broken Af but it was already the case on previous patch.

TLDR : GIt GuD bad jungler.

princeblumpkin3 votes

OP clearly never played against a really good Graves, Nidalee, or Kindred back in season 6. They get the tiniest lead and you don't get to farm your own jungle anymore, let alone scuttles.

five oh tree 1 votes

That was his point. If you let a lane bully in top lane get a single kill, they're going to have 3x your cs by 15 min and take your turret. Many of them will also be ungankable with a lead due to aoe damage. So yeah, you basically don't get to farm your own lane if they get ahead.

Automated Riven2 votes

That's not even counting the plethora of ways to not fall behind even if you don't get scuttle. If you can't contest scuttle then taking his opposite jungle allows you to end up ahead in exp and gold

Sex Crazed Eve2 votes

You mean they exacerbated the problem that already existed? Feels bad.

Leto GT2 votes

Don't tell me you're less camped than before when you lose your lane. It's pretty much the opposite. Gank lvl2, flash, tp, wait in bush, kill. Game over. Bye.

rtbf2216514122 votes

Invades already did that for us.

When your lane decided to invade and you did nothing to help.

DeathBurst2 votes

That being said, yes, the scuttle change is awful because there are probably way better changes to make t accomplish the goals riot set out for the scuttle change. But it's nice to see junglers truly feel what it's like to TRULY fall behind.

hum, but THAT was the goal Riot set out for. Forcing them to interact with each others so that one can gain a clear advantage over the other, so I'd say it's a success. Before, Junglers could somewhat ignore each other and both get fed by ganking different lanes, and it was pretty hard even for a good jungler to shutdown their direct counter-part, EVEN THOUGH at the same time Junglers overall impact on the game was (too) high.

What do you think was Riot's goal with that change?

TheCodeisCupCake1 votes

#2 Your champion does not counter the enemy pick or even worse is countered by the enemy pick, you will now have to hug your turret for 5 years and miss half of pretty much every wave while the enemy laner establishes a massive lead on you with which they can use to control the top side of the map for easily 10 or so minutes of the game barring a given bot lane snowballing out of control.

While spamming the laugh and dance + mastery 7 emotes*

VvVVvV1 votes

I guess all junglers didnt get the memo. Hell i had a game yesterday where this jax literally ganked mid or tried to gank mid like 4 times back to back in a 3 or 4 minute span. He got me the 1st time but then the 2nd time i seen him and he just sat in the side river bush waiting for me to push up...then left and was back in the same bush just a few seconds later.......then 4th time he came they got me a 2nd time. He also hit bot lane a few times. So he was ganking or attempting ganks a awful lot and didnt seem to fall behind at all because of it even when his failed ganks was a waste of time.

The Bad Touch1 votes

Lol I just mute my team and steal waves.

Working off the assumption they probably suck anyway.

Seems to be working well.

Noor Sakata1 votes

Ikr , I REALLY love the changes as a mid laner , at least junglers now can feel us , and mid lane isn't really that hard to gank for some champions

Thilmer1 votes

The experience changes Riot has applied in the jungle over time are retarded.

For a long time, junglers complained about permanently being 2 levels behind the other lanes, but since Riot tried to fix it, jungling has been way to save. Things like a level 3 jungler ganking a level 1 botlane have been a thing; babysitting a lane without losing experience has been absolutely effective during all season 8; ten failed ganks meaning nothing has been happening for a long time...

A role that has great carrying potential and is supposed to require skill can't have this many safety nets.

Cerbearus1 votes

What I don't like is that when the enemy picks Xin/Graves you might as well stay in base because they will be 3 levels up and you will have no jungle left by 10 minutes due to them getting every single scuttle because they are extremely easy to play dueling gods.

Frontline Fury1 votes

I tried to point out the same thing earlier, but apparently i’m not allowed to because i’m diamond and obviously wouldnt understand how different the game is in the lower ranks.

I’m glad people actually take time to listen to you. Nice to see someone else feels the same way about the jungle changes.

Sire Hippington1 votes

Yes and no, In the early stages and snowballing/falling behind off a single event was rarly an issue for junglers but is now, but overall junglers have and always had one of the hardest times playing behind, atleast in higher elos. If i win top for example, first thing i do is invadeing topjungle, place deep wards and scavange camps and/or kill the enemy jungler, provided i can count on my mid/jungle to have my back should their lanes collaps. Same as mid and sup, especially if i'm premade with the jungle and can invade together with him. If you're team falls behind, the one that usually suffers the most is jungle, laners will poach his camps if they can't farm savely, enemies will invade and you hardly have any angle to work with anymore.

However, they used to have an easy time if they fall behind individually but the rest of their team still does somewhat well, which for laners, especially top, isn't the case unless they have a save pick(most tanks) or heavily outscale at some point(camille, fiora...)

Anyway, the overall xp nerfs were great and needed, it's just the scuttle changes that are fucked up.

Joeyruler1 votes

Hopefully this season meta changes soon. I mean its nice but it can get better so I'll summoner 4 out of here until the nesxt season.summoner 31

PhantomGG1 votes

Sup, i'm Phantom and I posted about four different topics that all hit +50 on that issue you mention. That being said. While I do ask for a revert, i'm specifically and only asking for a revert on skuttle and nothing else, and believe the jungle camps should even remain the same as is, maybe just slightly boosted to make up for the loss of skuttle exp.

I believe their is some interesting formulas riot can do to fix jungle exp.

Example make it so no matter what, in your first clear, four camps is mandatory to hit level three. Than after that, it stabalizes with levels.

This alone would make a massive difference and allow laners, actual time to lane.

However I believe this meta did a lot to teach people that level two ganks are very possible and easy to pull off, and I believe even if we change things back to how they were, people are still going to do level two ganks, for they now understand the raw power they have.

So we will also have to look at the current meta, and think up some ideas and ask ourselves "are level two ganks still gonna be a common trend even if we rever the skuttle?"

So yeah, your argument about "How we want a full revert" is abit unfair, for I was quite literally one of the loudest people on this subject, in one of those topics I quite literally say.

"was it really so hard to just nerf jungle exp? But than you had to go and over complicate it with the new skuttler"

my issues are not with jungle exp, my issues are with a RNG crab and who has the better laners deciding, which jungler gets to snow ball.

It makes my talent as a jungler feel meaningless.

Ungrateful Thug1 votes

Another quality post by my boy Tychus. Upvoted.

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139
votes
Honestly the biggest buff to bruisers compared to whats on PBE
Gameplay141 comments
104
votes
This has been ignored for too long, and bug reports don't seem to matter to riot
Gameplay87 comments
99
votes