can we not buff vayne without adding a counterplay mechanic to her w?

Critmaster Garen·Aug 9, 2017·108 votes·3,331 views

wtf is this shit?

all other sources of % health true damage are in some form conditional and connected to gameplay mechanics that allow the enemy to play around the effect and to avoid it.

why is vaynes kit still the only one that is entirely 1 dimensional and doesnt have a single ability that youre allowed to outplay?

what am i supposed to do when fighting vayne? prevent her from pressing q? ask her kindly to turn off her w? prevent her from point and click disengaging with her e, or pressing her r?

83 Comments

Critmaster GarenAug 9, 201731 votes

i dont unsterstand why it is ok that there is an adc that this completely unfair for bruisers to fight against, but it was not ok that there was an assassin that was unfair to fight against for adc. Talon

double standarts much?

Sp33d Zer0Aug 9, 201721 votes

Pretty sure old talon was unfair for anyone not named Rammus or Malphite to fight against.

Critmaster GarenAug 9, 201724 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MBmau5Pf,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-08-09T08:29:11.844+0000)

Pretty sure old talon was unfair for anyone not named Rammus or Malphite to fight against.

fuck no.

tanks and fighters didnt give a shit about talon.

it was mostly squishy mages or adc who got gap clsoed on without counterplay and blown up. im not questioning nthat this needed to change.

but i also dont see why its ok to make a marksman whos absolutely impossible to fight for bruisers. vaynes kit is shit design and long overdue to get modernized and some counterplay added to it. whoever came up with this set of buffs isnt in his right mind or really hates melees.

even if you wanted to argue that her 3 hit mechanic allowed to play around true damage, which it just dosnt. this is exactly the part theyre buffing in her kit and make it even harder to play around.

Sp33d Zer0Aug 9, 20177 votes

I remember seeing talon shred an entire team, tanks included, before his rework.

I agree that Vayne is pretty toxic for melees (hell she's toxic for ranged too), but I think we can analyze different champions that fulfilled different roles in different lanes with different standards.

Critmaster GarenAug 9, 201711 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sp33d Zer0,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MBmau5Pf,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-09T08:35:00.551+0000)

I remember seeing talon shred an entire team, tanks included, before his rework.

I agree that Vayne is pretty toxic for melees (hell she's toxic for ranged too), but I think we can analyze different champions that fulfilled different roles in different lanes with different standards.

the standart is that there was a champion that was simply impossible to deal with, or to counterplay for a specific subset of other champions, and that the champion had to be changed because of it.

this is both true for vayne, and for some of the old assassins (especially pre rework talon with the silence on his e).

seems like double standarts to me.

SaiannaAug 11, 20171 votes

Talon was partially to blame. The lions part of issue was busted AD(c) itemisation and overal powercreep.

Evil YasuoAug 9, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MBmau5Pf,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-08-09T08:26:16.594+0000)

i dont unsterstand why it is ok that there is an adc that this completely unfair for bruisers to fight against, but it was not ok that there was an assassin that was unfair to fight against for adc.

double standarts much?

RIP Talon's blink

AhristocatsAug 9, 201711 votes

counterplay is like any point and click mechanic (vlad darius morde or AA)

its power is delayed due to 3 hits

Critmaster GarenAug 9, 201726 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MBmau5Pf,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-08-09T08:07:54.025+0000)

counterplay is like any point and click mechanic (vlad darius morde or AA)

its power is delayed due to 3 hits

2 hits with her q after the buff, which is at the same time an auto attack reset.

1 hit when she tumbles and uses her e.

at least Fiora passive plays around positioning, and you can deny her the hits on her vitals. what can you do against vayne at this point? shes either going to stat check you, or you happen to play a hypermobile bursty champion who can blow her up before she can move.

vaynes entire kit has aboslutely 0 fucking counterplay on any of its abilities. its like counterplay is a thing that only exists for melee carries in this game.

i swear, whoever happens to be in charge of this patch just wants to delete bruisers from the game.

AhristocatsAug 9, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MBmau5Pf,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-08-09T08:10:00.300+0000)

vaynes entire kit has aboslutely 0 fucking counterplay anywhere.

her kit revolves around AA, to balance it they delay the power like vladimir's point and click Q what can't you understand?

her Q adds 2 stacks but her Q doesn't have 0 sec cd, even if her Q adds 2 stacks it's still a delayed power

beside now that her Q can't crit anymore the power is really delayed and more focused on tanks than squishies with Q critting vayne was always a jack of all trades, bursting tanks AND squishies

Critmaster GarenAug 9, 201723 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MBmau5Pf,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-09T08:14:15.914+0000)

her kit revolves around AA, to balance it they delay the power like vladimir's point and click Q what can't you understand?

her Q adds 2 stacks but her Q doesn't have 0 sec cd, even if her Q adds 2 stacks it's still a delayed power

beside now that her Q can't crit anymore the power is really delayed and more focused on tanks than squishies with Q critting vayne was always a jack of all trades, bursting tanks AND squishies

her 3 hit passive isnt a counterplay mechanic. its simply that. a passive damage boost.

the fact that it plays aroudn a 3 hit mechanic doesnt allow you to outplay or avoid this ability while fighting her.

her entire kit is a ball of passive or active attack steroids on a button press. she needed a rework for a long time now, not a massive buff that turns her impossible to deal with for melee champions who arent akali.

even when Draven is overtuned, there are at least ways to approach him and to deny him a large portion of his damage by zoning him off axes.

this is what i mean when i say vayne needs a counterplay mechanic. she needs a mechanic attached to her w that you can actually play around to have a chance to beat her other than "play the right champion or lose".

InstaPoppyAug 9, 20173 votes

[deleted]

Chromatic EagleAug 9, 20178 votes

Isn't her stealth invisibility?

Magical ZoeAug 9, 20175 votes

That won't really matter mid to late game when you're to busy team fighting to really GET OUT OF THE WAY OF AN ONCOMING VAYNE PROC.

LeetriAug 9, 20177 votes

Q doesn't add 2 stacks, it's a bug and it's already gone in the next PBE build.

ChaoticPineconeAug 10, 20171 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/xkeAhwmI-now-that-we-know-the-q-double-stacking-w-is-a-bug-these-vayne-changes-arent-that-bad

apparently her double-stacking Q was a bug.

Critmaster GarenAug 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/xkeAhwmI-now-that-we-know-the-q-double-stacking-w-is-a-bug-these-vayne-changes-arent-that-bad

apparently her double-stacking Q was a bug.

still doesnt change that theyre buffing a champion, who sits at 50% winrate 10% playrate in diamond, for no reason. nor that she has an incredibly toxic low counterplay kit that is in need of a rework instead of straight buffs.

ChaoticPineconeAug 10, 20171 votes

50% winrate, 10% playrate with a crit heavy build that relies on her Q-bonus damage critting. It no longer crits.

Hard to take you seriously when you call that a straight buff.

AD champs onlyAug 9, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MBmau5Pf,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-08-09T08:07:54.025+0000)

counterplay is like any point and click mechanic (vlad darius morde or AA)

its power is delayed due to 3 hits

I always liked how you're telling the truth, but bro.. Come on. The only champion you cannot itemize against. That W mechanic has to go away.

KanzlerAug 9, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=AD champs only,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MBmau5Pf,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-08-09T14:50:27.852+0000)

I always liked how you're telling the truth, but bro.. Come on. The only champion you cannot itemize against. That W mechanic has to go away.

Did they remove attack speed reduction items from the game?

OyddAWqJ5rAug 9, 20177 votes

I think it's time we stopped pretending that True Damage is a key and iconic part of Silver Bolts and just made it physical already.

ZenithEeveeAug 9, 20176 votes

I still honestly think we should change it to Current health and not max health.

Karn BishopAug 10, 20175 votes

She needs to be added to the roster for a mini rework or a full on rework, she was designed for a game and vision system that no longer exists, at the very least increase the CD between invisible tumbles to 1.5 seconds so spells can actually complete their casts instead of fizzling as they currently do.

ADC HansAug 9, 20174 votes

I bet that her Winrate in the (tank meta) will drop below 50% which is not even that good anyways seeing that we're in a TANK META, now it's going to be worse since she cannot crit on her Q anymore. Lower winrate, permabanned a complete joke. You will get outplayed in 1v1's vs assasins since vayne was supposed to be a duelist now you get an even longer delay to her power since her Q crit is not useful anymore.

But muh 14% HP is so OP... a Q crit with IE is way more OP than 14% HP, thanks Riot.

Critmaster GarenAug 9, 20179 votes

[{quoted}](name=SKT Vayn3,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MBmau5Pf,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-08-09T13:21:02.027+0000)

I bet that her Winrate in the (tank meta) will drop below 50% which is not even that good anyways seeing that we're in a TANK META, now it's going to be worse since she cannot crit on her Q anymore. Lower winrate, permabanned a complete joke. You will get outplayed in 1v1's vs assasins since vayne was supposed to be a duelist now you get an even longer delay to her power since her Q crit is not useful anymore.

But muh 14% HP is so OP... a Q crit with IE is way more OP than 14% HP, thanks Riot.

item 3143 item 3047

there are ways to deal with crit.

she can deal 28% of your max health just off her w in a matter of around 4 to 5 seconds to you with the current set of buffs on the pbe.

auto attack + q. already one proc. auto attack + e + auto attack, second proc.

there is no way to deal with that shit.

JorenciceAug 9, 20173 votes

4-5 seconds is a hell of a long time in a team fight...

Critmaster GarenAug 9, 20176 votes

{quoted}

4-5 seconds is a hell of a long time in a team fight...

not to shred half of a tanks or bruisers health by 1 single champion lmao.

JorenciceAug 9, 20174 votes

Yea it is.

If vayne has spent 4-5 seconds attacking a single bruiser shes already died 2.5 times to any assassin or mage.

iDemaciaAug 10, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MBmau5Pf,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-09T13:30:31.046+0000)

not to shred half of a tanks or bruisers health by 1 single champion lmao.

she can deal 28% of your max health

Last time I checked 28% was not 50%. Stop exaggerating with your worthless shitposts.

Critmaster GarenAug 10, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Danish Pastry,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MBmau5Pf,comment-id=00080000000000000001,timestamp=2017-08-10T17:47:32.602+0000)

.

Last time I checked 28% was not 50%. Stop exaggerating with your worthless shitposts.

last time i checked she also deals physical damage on top of those 28%, but stay mad.

RavenMagusAug 9, 20173 votes

I actually think it'll be better after the change.

The important part that everyone seems to be missing is that the tumble damage won't crit anymore.

So she gets silver bolts faster, but at least she won't be two shotting squishies with a billion damage tumble crit.

She'll be three shotting them instead, like every other crit adc.

Critmaster GarenAug 9, 201712 votes

{quoted}

I actually think it'll be better after the change.

The important part that everyone seems to be missing is that the tumble damage won't crit anymore.

So she gets silver bolts faster, but at least she won't be two shotting squishies with a billion damage tumble crit.

She'll be three shotting them instead, like every other crit adc.

against bruisers and tanks vayne already deals around 30% to 50% of your health in true damage over the course of a fight, with no chance to play around her passive procs.

no, this is most definitely worse. if im having problems with crit, im grabbing ninja tabi and randuins.

but getting shredded by her w is nothing you can do against unless youre playing some assassin who can blow her up and hope you dont get exhausted or denied by shields.

BârdAug 9, 20173 votes

According to champion.gg, Vayne does 18.95% true damage against champions.

Silver bolts hurt, but they aren't the majority of her damage.

That comes from the temporary IE of AD she gets when she pops her rank 3 ult, and Tumble letting her double dip into it.

Critmaster GarenAug 9, 20178 votes

{quoted}

According to champion.gg, Vayne does 18.95% true damage against champions.

Silver bolts hurt, but they aren't the majority of her damage.

That comes from the temporary IE of AD she gets when she pops her rank 3 ult, and Tumble letting her double dip into it.

thats the true damage she deals on average.

she does less true damage to squishies when she just kills them in a couple auto attacks with crtitical strikes.

against bruisers and tanks the values are much much higher. i promise you if you play a tank or a juggernaut, vayne will deal around 30% up to half your health in true damage over the course of a fight.

and thats already right now, before theyre buffing the % value and the proc rate.

LankPantsAug 9, 20175 votes

I've seen Silver Bolts deal 60% of my HP as a Sejuani player. When you're really tanky the damage on it gets super out of line, and it sucks because in the case there was literally nothing I could do to get tankier VS that Vayne, I'd basically capped off my durability VS her. Any other ADC and I could still get more armour and live longer.

GayFluffyUnicornAug 10, 20173 votes

For a bruiser or tank it's nothing new reading "1200 true damage silver bolts" in the death recap.

DuskDaUmbreonAug 9, 20173 votes

Disengage before she hits a 3rd auto on you? CC her? Burst her? Have some basic coordination?

Literately just have your mid or jg pick any champion that can stick past Vayne's E and you autowin. Ahri does amazing. Akali does great. Katarina's good. Fizz is a decent choice. Ekko would fare well. Syndra can burst her instantly, making Vayne's E, R, or Q irrelevant. Lee does well. A Leona would kick her ass. Lucian can chase Vayne fairly well. Yi's an option. Morgana makes Vayne irrelevant. Nasus does well. Nidalee can keep up and kill Vayne, you can pick Sona and harass Vayne into oblivion...

Do I need to keep going?

Critmaster GarenAug 9, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Disengage before she hits a 3rd auto on you? CC her? Burst her? Have some basic coordination?

sure im gonna disengage a ranged, mobile champion who gets a speed buff when im turning around in the matter of one second before her third w proc goes off.

are you high? how do you imagine thats supposed to be possible if you dont play an assassin who can stealth out the debuff?

and "cc her and blow her up" is not counterplay. its pretty much fighting no counterplay with no counterplay. not every champion has the kit built to do that and counterpicks arent counterplay either.

JesuszillaAug 9, 20172 votes

Just to be a bit of a more reasonable voice is this sea of whining, but Vayne's mechanics make her someone that has to commit to a fight usually. She lacks effective disengage as her movespeed only works when moving toward enemies, and she has one gap creation effect. So the counterplay to silver bolts is to play around the mechanic that she can only stack bolts on one target and has to focus on that target to get the proc. Introduce a new threat to her or force her to have to re-evaluate her engages and she will have less damage potential in the fight.

She is also one of the shortest range and least mobile adcs and can easily be caught out, killed, or kited/pressured by other ranged champions. The game isn't all 1v1's versus Darius.

Mecha IncognitoAug 9, 20173 votes

My friend, it's pointless trying to bring reason to these boards. All it takes is mention of Vayne (even though she's definitely going to be weaker losing her Q crit - the thing that's allowed her to even be played at the moment) or Yasuo or whatever, and then they just circlejerk. No one here actually wants to discuss balance, they just want people to agree with whatever they say.

JesuszillaAug 9, 20173 votes

I mean, that's everyone. Does that mean we just let them do as they please? I prefer to voice my opinion with facts and logic and let others show their bias and ignorance. Regardless of how much they complain, the changes aren't going to go in their favor so in the end they only hurt themselves.

Mecha IncognitoAug 9, 20172 votes

That's not everyone though. I'd much rather have a discussion with people that want to listen, rather than talk to most of the people on here who seem to only want to vent, and then ignore everything you have to say about the situation.

OriyokiAug 9, 20172 votes

How do other % HP or true damage abilities have counterplay other than not being hit by them?

Still agree on Vayne buffs being unnecessary.

Critmaster GarenAug 9, 20176 votes

{quoted}

How do other % HP or true damage abilities have counterplay other than not being hit by them?

Still agree on Vayne buffs being unnecessary.

in vaynes case, her max health % true dmage is just tacked onto her auto attacks, which makes it just direct targeted damage that you can only avoid with rare abilities like jax counterstrike or shens dodge zone.

in fioras case, its tied to her vitals. you can outposition her and prevent her from striking at you from the side with your vital and deny her the extra damage. the easiest way is by hiding the vital inside a wall, or by resetting the vital into a position that she cant easily reach without putting herself into a shitty position.

in garens case, its tied to his villain mechanic. the true damage applies to a single specific enemy on his spin and his auto attacks that he cant chose himself. its also possible to play around his cooldown windows. melee champions try to disengage garen during his spin to avoid the damage and then reengage in the 5 seconds his spin is on cooldown and he has a distinct window of weakness.

its also not nearly as much damage as in vaynes or fioras case. a full lvl 16 spin deals 10% of the villains max health in true damage over 3 seconds. fiora can do that with 1 vital proc, and vayne can do more in half a second to you by that point. only that in vaynes case she doesnt have windows of weakness and can keep chunking you nonstop.

ProfirixAug 9, 20172 votes

If she makes it to live with these changes, shes replacing Draven on my perma-ban list.

JesuszillaAug 9, 20173 votes

So the only actual changes are the 3 second 20% max health healing on takedowns during her ultimate, and 2% increase in the max rank amount of true damage on her w. The double stack on q is a bug (at least that's how it's been reported)

ProfirixAug 9, 20171 votes

You forget that she will be pick-banned and everyone and their mother will play her. Good enough reason to perma ban :)

JesuszillaAug 9, 20171 votes

But she won't. She's not really picked that often now. And these buffs aren't going to help her terrible lane phase.

DarkRitualAug 9, 20171 votes

Let people pick her. I'll continue to play cc heavy lockdown champs. These buffs don't let her 1v5 vs a lockdown comp. Maokai Sejuani Lux Xayah Leona

OMGSoAnnoyingAug 10, 20173 votes

Agreed. Let people pick Vayne. I get to her in a team fight regardless, because every problem can be solved with fisting.

Hello, :) I might die to get her, but it'll usually be worth because there will be a lot of chaos in their back line... and probably a dead Vayne.

Basically any good, solid CC gets the lock and she dies like the squishy jumpsuit clad wench she is. If you're playing a comp that has ZERO lock down potential (I've seen it lately), well, that's your fault and your team just got out-drafted hard.