90% of the problems caused by assassins are from their animations

Rock MD··65 votes·3,697 views

And by animations, I mean animation cancelling. That's 90% of what makes assassins broken because of how much extra damage they can stuff into an extra tiny timeframe.

That's why a good LeBlanc will nuke you with next to no mercy or fair time to react.

Or Talon/Rengar with their 100-0 combos in less than half a second.

And then you have Yasuo and Riven who are the poster children for how animation cancelling triples a champions skillcap by quadrupling their damage output. No really, Yasuo can wall mid-Q, Q mid-E (to be fair this one is intentional), wall mid-E, and wall mid-ult. Yasuo should be vulnerable during his ultimate but because of how he can cancel animations he's a lot more oppressive and safe than he should be.

I can guarantee you if something is done to restrict the amount of actions that can be completed during a leap, while projectiles are in the air, or while you're completing a self CC movement, assassins can be buffed to be playable without being good solely due to a hilariously frustrating mechanic.

117 Comments

Miraweave9 votes

Animation cancelling has always really annoyed me when it's central to a champion's gameplay, because you're basically abusing game mechanics that don't work properly, and because it means that mastery on those champions comes from reducing their counterplay rather than from knowledge of the champion and matchups.

It's not really possible to get rid of it, but if I were to redesign the game from scratch I think it'd be much better if animation cancelling didn't exist and champions who relied on it could demonstrate skill in other ways.

Definitely agree that it's the biggest problem with assassins, too.

DREADN0UGHT9 votes

Pretty muh 98% of the champ roster can cancel some of its animations...

Miraweave2 votes

{quoted}

Pretty muh 98% of the champ roster can cancel some of its animations...

The issue isn't cancelling a few of them, it's when a champion's primary skill is in animation cancelling or when they can cancel most of their animations so that animation cancelling dramatically increases your damage.

Rock MD27 votes

{quoted}

Pretty muh 98% of the champ roster can cancel some of its animations...

Yet most of them don't require you to chain all of them together in an almost nonexistent timeframe.

100% of the champion pool has animations they can cancel, such as autoattacks. However, there are some animations that need to play out otherwise you get gross increases in damage that are responsible for the, "waow assassin did x damage to me and i cant fight back pls nerf" problems.

It's why Riven is playable even when she's hilariously bad and it's why assassins get nerfed when their ability damage on its own isn't that much higher than a standard mage's burst.

Miraweave10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chairman Rock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M5EE9tnl,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2016-08-12T22:36:55.568+0000)

Yet most of them don't require you to chain all of them together in an almost nonexistent timeframe.

100% of the champion pool has animations they can cancel, such as autoattacks. However, there are some animations that need to play out otherwise you get gross increases in damage that are responsible for the, "waow assassin did x damage to me and i cant fight back pls nerf" problems.

It's why Riven is playable even when she's hilariously bad and it's why assassins get nerfed when their ability damage on its own isn't that much higher than a standard mage's burst.

Actually most assassins have lower overall burst than the really bursty mages. They just do it faster and get to you better.

EDIT: Why are people downvoting this? Look at the amount of damage Zed's full combo does and compare it to the damage Veigar or Syndra's full combo does.

Auz the Ripper4 votes

Zed, in general, does do more damage with his full combo than most burst mages.

The relatively lower damage from abilities with AD assassins is easily made up with the damage from autoattacks. Each autoattack has the equavent of a 60% AP ratio, going by gold efficency.

People often forget just how important autoattacks are to AD assassins.

Miraweave2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Auz the Ripper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M5EE9tnl,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2016-08-13T01:36:11.131+0000)

Zed, in general, does do more damage with his full combo than most burst mages.

The relatively lower damage from abilities with AD assassins is easily made up with the damage from autoattacks. Each autoattack has the equavent of a 60% AP ratio, going by gold efficency.

People often forget just how important autoattacks are to AD assassins.

He doesn't, though. Have you ever seen a Syndra lategame?

Redaga1 votes

you are comparing orange and apples. Veigar and Syndra all Burst goes into 1 spell, and both require set up, Syndra for a 7 ball R and veigar nerf means you have to shred some life before you ult. also landing their whole kit is way more complicated that most assassins

Umbra Ionia2 votes

I disagree with Veigar, everyone saw how that fcking champion can oneshot you with the R with the 100% of your life.

BTW: You said veigar is harder than assassins? Wtf dude.

Nuparu2 votes

Syndra's Q -> E -> W -> another Q is more than enough to kill a carry late game.

Veigar E -> W -> Q can also kill a carry late game.

Not sure what you're talking about but they don't rely on ult...

Penns7 votes

Riven isnt an assassin tho

The Oasis16 votes

Not technically, but she is the poster child of animation canceling.

Penns6 votes

She is, but she isnt considered an assassin, so how is animation canceling 90% of what makes assassins "broken"? Leblanc for example just moves her hand a bit and thats her Q, not much to cancel there.

Rock MD6 votes

{quoted}

She is, but she isnt considered an assassin, so how is animation canceling 90% of what makes assassins "broken"? Leblanc for example just moves her hand a bit and thats her Q, not much to cancel there.

You can squeeze her kill combo into a much shorter timeframe, I'm sure you can imagine why this is a problem when she pops in and out and 100-0's your ADC before you can even Mikael's him.

Also when she qr's so quickly you have a roughy 0.3 second window when if you heal outside of that window you'll overheal and do nothing or you're dead.

Poske2 votes

Implying that QR will kill the target?

That happend like around 5 times for me and I got 1000 games on le bl

Heck she even has to be fed to kill you with QRW, EWQ , EQW , QWE , WQE , WEQ , W QRE (Not hitting W) W R Q E (Not hiting W)

If she can kill you with 2 spells then she is 6 levels ahead and 20,2,10

Key in beating Le bl is tryint to hit her as soon as she start dashing towards your team. She cant blick back while she is dashing = rip Le bl get nexus

The Oasis2 votes

So basically the key is to be able to anticipate all her skills and/or have godlike reflexes. Seems legit.

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Godlike reflex? Her W is fairly slow. The dash animation. Since it is a dash not a blink. Zed swaps faster for example.

Pierce The Veal4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chairman Rock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M5EE9tnl,comment-id=000200010001000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-13T01:39:19.237+0000)

You can squeeze her kill combo into a much shorter timeframe, I'm sure you can imagine why this is a problem when she pops in and out and 100-0's your ADC before you can even Mikael's him.

Also when she qr's so quickly you have a roughy 0.3 second window when if you heal outside of that window you'll overheal and do nothing or you're dead.

This I agree with completely. Leblanc is utterly cancerous with how fast she can burst. In that sense, I do agree that certain assassins need their animations gated by a little bit. Outright removing animation canceling, however, would make the game a lot less interesting and remove a lot of the skill from those champions.

Zero Skill Tank2 votes

Most champions can cancel some of them, most assassins tho can cast full rotation in timeframe shorter than ordinary cast time.

The HeraId2 votes

{quoted}

Pretty muh 98% of the champ roster can cancel some of its animations...

I mean on Karthus I always cancel my auto animation by pressing Q.

SpecterVonBaren5 votes

I thought Q WAS your auto animation.

Nameless Voice3 votes

That's because he cancels it so much that you never see him autoattack at all.

KillerPenguins5 votes

The solution was present way back in 2010 when i started playing - practically every skill had a hilariously small channel time. You can still see it on a lot of older champs, but that leads to a whole host of other un-fun things.

PermabannedGaren4 votes

All right, let me break down what this person is saying: Yasuo and Riven (two champions that most of the ingrates on this board hate) should simultaneously be made easier to use and buffed to compensate for no longer relying on animation canceling.

Is that really what the people here want? I'm genuinely surprised this got upvoted.

Rock MD5 votes

{quoted}

All right, let me break down what this person is saying: Yasuo and Riven (two champions that most of the ingrates on this board hate) should simultaneously be made easier to use and buffed to compensate for no longer relying on animation canceling.

Is that really what the people here want? I'm genuinely surprised this got upvoted.

The ability to animation cancel is a huge boon. Anyone with half a brain knows that. The issue is it's bullshit that is only there to artificially inflate the skillcap and make it unclear to the opposing player how to outplay or counter play the Riven/Yasuo.

Remove it (making the champion easier), give the champion compensation buffs that add gameplay. Boom. Champion is easier to play as and against and the window of counter play is widened while also adding more clarity to what the champion does.

Poske3 votes

The moment when Riven becomes Easy 5% OF playerbase ll quit LoL

I am just trying to explain to you how your idea is dumb

Only Play Darius3 votes

I love using windwall to hide the animation of his 3rd Q, surprisingly many people think I just misclicked windwall and don't even try to move to the side until the tornado is already in their face. I hope they don't change it

Rock MD8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M5EE9tnl,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-08-13T01:19:05.445+0000)

I love using windwall to hide the animation of his 3rd Q, surprisingly many people think I just misclicked windwall and don't even try to move to the side until the tornado is already in their face. I hope they don't change it

???

It's something that shouldn't exist why can't we change it and then buff the champions up so they can at least be playable by people who don't have 25-50+ games in that champ?

General Levi6 votes

So lower the skillcap on champions that are known for high skillcaps? Boards knows balance

Rock MD9 votes

[{quoted}](name=General Levi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M5EE9tnl,comment-id=000800000001,timestamp=2016-08-13T02:00:30.841+0000)

So lower the skillcap on champions that are known for high skillcaps? Boards knows balance

When a champion requires decision making or good gameplay to be difficult, there's no issue.

For example, Bard being difficult (ignoring the ungodly hit box on his Q) because there are multiple approaches he can take with his ultimate and Magical Journey is fine because it is gameplay that offers unique choices and promotes skillful decision making.

When it is a mechanic that requires you to have low ping, shouldn't have existed in the first place, and doesn't have any gameplay value then yes, it should.

I would rather have Riven have more damage in her Q if it meant taking out animation cancelling. Because it offers a choice between using Q to damage me or catch up to me and then use 3 unnecessarily fast autos that she shouldn't fit in her combo.

General Levi3 votes

How does it not add gameplay value? It's not like you can pick up riven and learn her combos in 3 games. You have to dedicate yourself to the champ to be decent at riven outside of bronze. She still has to use her q's to damage or catch up to you, so I don't see the point there?

Rock MD7 votes

[{quoted}](name=General Levi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M5EE9tnl,comment-id=00080000000100000000,timestamp=2016-08-13T02:16:41.408+0000)

How does it not add gameplay value? It's not like you can pick up riven and learn her combos in 3 games. You have to dedicate yourself to the champ to be decent at riven outside of bronze. She still has to use her q's to damage or catch up to you, so I don't see the point there?

Gameplay is having choices that allow for different scenarios that can be achieved through different decisions.

Ryze has gameplay in how and when he uses Q. Bard can ult your squishies to mitigate your team's damage, ult your tower to dive, ult his team to save them. Etc.

I mash buttons to increase dps to levels it shouldn't be at and Riot will eventually nerf the champion because it was completely unintended isn't gameplay. When it is a must or you gimp yourself, it's not gameplay.

Also, by upping her Q damage but removing her animation cancelling you can give her roughly similar damage if she gets on you and starts dropping her combo but from range she has to choose when the right time to go in is, because she has to choose between damage (sitting there pricing her passive with autos) or stickiness (just getting on top of you first). She also has actually fighter/assassin damage on her abilities again if that happens.

Poske3 votes

Yeah LoL

Lets make everything Automatic so that 150 Ping Chimpanzas can play league

No this game is balanced around 30-50 ping deal with it

No riven player would want that What you just suggested

Rock MD2 votes

[deleted]

Immortal spax2 votes

Sofm got challanger KOREA by playing jungle with 200+ping (he is from thailand), and he used to main Lee Sin.

No exscuse, if you are good enough you will climb, no reason to transform this game in a more easier game. If you take away cancel animation most veteran players will leave.

Poske1 votes

Sounds extremly unrealistic

Boosted as fk

Immortal spax1 votes

So much boosted that now he play jungler for the Snakes, a LPL team.

Poske1 votes

He didnt get chall with 200 ping

Period

Immortal spax1 votes

Idk if he always had 200+ping, but he always had a big amount of ms, (150+) consider that in high elo everyone have 10ping, in fact 30 ms is considered a lot.

There was a video on youtube with huni and pobelter who they kept cry because they had 60 ping.

Poske1 votes

Dude Reaching diamond1 with 200+ consistent ping is impossible

I doubt reaching diamond with 200 ping is possible either and you are telling me he got to top 200?

Mostlikely boosted by someone or didnt have consistent high ping

Maybe you could cheese it with warwick and nunu till diamond but thats about it

Immortal spax1 votes

This dude is a legit monster, he now is a jungler for a LPL team, and people says that he will bevthe next SKT jungler(skt is considered the best team ever)

Just check on youtube, there is a game with khazix where he had 40+ kill with 150ping.

Poske1 votes

Maybe his stream is just laggy maybe something else lags rather then league

Dude I am really high elo atm

I have been high elo for years

Reaching chall with 150 ping is Impossible

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Okay i hate Riven more than any other champ but removing the mechanical skills required for certain champs? Fuckn casual. I mean 90% of the roster doesn't even require any difficult mechanics at all... no need to remove the remaining part of it. Just because bronze-silver is where most of the community is at we shouldn't change the game to please them.

Evewynn1 votes

Did you just say that yasuo can quadruple his damage output by using a non-damaging ability during his combo?

I'm a bit lost.

Rock MD2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Celestial Bodied,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M5EE9tnl,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2016-08-13T02:40:41.224+0000)

Did you just say that yasuo can quadruple his damage output by using a non-damaging ability during his combo?

I'm a bit lost.

It's an exaggeration, but Yasuo can increase his dps by a significant amount by cancelling autos and dealing deceptively more damage than he should.

Evewynn4 votes

Every champ can do that. Yasuo's q is a spell, and auto attacks do not lock out spells. If they did, it would feel shitty for everyone, even mages.

Yasuo's q spell mimics an auto, but it is still a spell, so the "canceling" should not be removed.

Rock MD2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Celestial Bodied,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M5EE9tnl,comment-id=000b00000000,timestamp=2016-08-13T02:53:31.272+0000)

Every champ can do that. Yasuo's q is a spell, and auto attacks do not lock out spells. If they did, it would feel shitty for everyone, even mages.

Yasuo's q spell mimics an auto, but it is still a spell, so the "canceling" should not be removed.

He's also capable of using both Q and W almost instantaneously as well as E and W. Yasuo's issue is that whenever he does something particularly ballsy he is not adequately punished for it due to his animation cancelling. Q plays a part in it but honestly it's when he uses his E/R and isn't locked out of his Q/W that is the problem.

Like, what is the point of making a champ that puts yourself in the middle of a team if the champ has no inherent risk due to an unintended interaction (being able to use W halfway through your animation).

Evewynn5 votes

He actually can't cancel his e into q. He can only buffer his q, which is activated at the end of the e animation. it seems like most of your frustration is him being able to use w quickly after his other spells.

Melee ADCs need reliable, reactionary defensive tools in order to be viable. They are squishy in the middle of a teamfight, and would be useless if their kits were too unforgiving. Yi has alpha popping and meditate. Trynd has timed invulnerability (though he is not as good). Yas needs his w and passive to not get blown up, and as a spell-intensive character he needs to use them when he intends to. Otherwise he would just be clunky and literally no one would play him because not only would he feel bad, he would actually be bad.

Rock MD2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Celestial Bodied,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=M5EE9tnl,comment-id=000b0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-13T03:10:42.250+0000)

He actually can't cancel his e into q. He can only buffer his q, which is activated at the end of the e animation. it seems like most of your frustration is him being able to use w quickly after his other spells.

Melee ADCs need reliable, reactionary defensive tools in order to be viable. They are squishy in the middle of a teamfight, and would be useless if their kits were too unforgiving. Yi has alpha popping and meditate. Trynd has timed invulnerability (though he is not as good). Yas needs his w and passive to not get blown up, and as a spell-intensive character he needs to use them when he intends to. Otherwise he would just be clunky and literally no one would play him because not only would he feel bad, he would actually be bad.

If any champion wanted to use a spell any time thy intended to, the game would be a nightmare. The issue is that specific champions are being allowed access to actions far earlier than they should be completed. Yasuo is a big offender (not nearly the biggest), and needs to have it removed.

Yes I'm aware it'll turn him into a shit champion. That's why I suggested compensation buffs to other parts of his kit that promote healthier gameplay.

Poske5 votes

What IF I TOLD YOU

PEOPLE play campions LIke riven Yasuo BECAUSE OF ANIMATION CANCELING

I DONT WANT THEM TO BE AUTOPILOT SHITS No Dedicated yasuo / riven player wants that

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